You guys, I think we need to pay Lonzo

He will go to Chicago and they will prioritize Lavine and Vucevic. Or go to NY and Randle and RJ will get the touches. This idea that he will go to some team and they will put the ball in his hands the majority of the time and let him run the show is beyond dumb unless it is the least talented team of all time. Look at any team and it makes more sense to put the ball in several other guys hands as opposed to Lonzo.

His chance to make money in this league and stick is to be a 3-and-D who can push the pace off rebounds. Basically, wing Draymond before he forgot how to shoot. THATS his path but if he wants to try to be Jason Kidd, he can go try that somewhere but I guarantee he wont be in that role for long because they will have better players to create and finish

Stay here, go somewhere else, quit the NBA. Unless he is in the right system he won?t reach his full potential.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

He will go to Chicago and they will prioritize Lavine and Vucevic. Or go to NY and Randle and RJ will get the touches. This idea that he will go to some team and they will put the ball in his hands the majority of the time and let him run the show is beyond dumb unless it is the least talented team of all time. Look at any team and it makes more sense to put the ball in several other guys hands as opposed to Lonzo.

His chance to make money in this league and stick is to be a 3-and-D who can push the pace off rebounds. Basically, wing Draymond before he forgot how to shoot. THATS his path but if he wants to try to be Jason Kidd, he can go try that somewhere but I guarantee he wont be in that role for long because they will have better players to create and finish

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It's not about strictly running the team around Zo. But just letting anybody bring the ball up the court to initiate offense is just chaotic. There's no structure. Anybody can get it and run with it. Zo could run more of a Jason Kidd in Dallas role. He wasn't always on ball, but it was clear he was the PG. Running Zion and Brandon at Point all game, asking them to create all of the offense and then be stoppers on defense just doesn't make sense.The idea should be to get some easy baskets for Zion and BI not overwork them on offense, asking them to do everything. Especially when you have a PG who is more than capable of running an offense and is an elite passer with elite IQ. Bledsoe runs more point than Lonzo, that's a clear problem.

What exactly has the # 2 Overall Pick in the 2017 Draft accomplished?

I think it's fair to say he has learned how to be an average shooter.

His only real bargaining chip is that he's probably better than the first overall pick of the 2017 NBA Draft (but his agent should not mention the third or 13th pick during any contract negotiation).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

What exactly has the # 2 Overall Pick in the 2017 Draft accomplished?

I think it's fair to say he has learned how to be an average shooter.

His only real bargaining chip is that he's probably better than the first overall pick of the 2017 NBA Draft (but his agent should not mention the third or 13th pick during any contract negotiation).

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Denver really screwed that up by trading #13. A trio of #13, Joker, and Murray would win a few titles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Denver really screwed that up by trading #13. A trio of #13, Joker, and Murray would win a few titles.

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Yep one of the most one side trades in NBA draft history. It ranks right up there with....

NO Jazz - LA Laker Trade: Magic for Gale Goodrich
Charlotte Hornet - LA Laker Trade: Kobe Bryant for Vlade Divac

let lonzo go and get rid of bledsoe the best way we can....

move ingram to the 2 spot......throw money at duncan robinson and see if miami match it....throw a contract at dennis schroeder and see if he take it...hell he do play defense...

schroeder
ingram
robinson
zion
adams

i can live with that to start the season off......naw,,hayes,,marshall and others to round out the bench.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

let lonzo go and get rid of bledsoe the best way we can....

move ingram to the 2 spot......throw money at duncan robinson and see if miami match it....throw a contract at dennis schroeder and see if he take it...hell he do play defense...

schroeder
ingram
robinson
zion
adams

i can live with that to start the season off......naw,,hayes,,marshall and others to round out the bench.....

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Hell, I'd take Elfrid Payton (a local) over anything we have on our team right now at the 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Hell, I'd take Elfrid Payton (a local) over anything we have on our team right now at the 1.

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Would you say that if he weren't a local? He is not an upgrade. We need to move Bledsoe and Ball for an upgrade.

Time for Jimmertime

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Would you say that if he weren't a local? He is not an upgrade. We need to move Bledsoe and Ball for an upgrade.

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I disagree. As I said, he would be an upgrade from anything we have on our team. Maybe not a long-term solution, mind you, but better than any point we have on our team right now

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Time for Jimmertime

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I thought you would never say it.

Make it happen.

You guys, I don't think we need to pay Lonzo

His shot has improved, but you'll never ever see him get a shooters roll. It's either in or it's out. It's a perplexing jumper in that it kind of looks sound now, but you wouldn't call it pretty like a Dame or Steph or Joe Harris.

And then there's all the other deficiencies. I'm happy to let him walk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

You guys, I don't think we need to pay Lonzo

His shot has improved, but you'll never ever see him get a shooters roll. It's either in or it's out. It's a perplexing jumper in that it kind of looks sound now, but you wouldn't call it pretty like a Dame or Steph or Joe Harris.

And then there's all the other deficiencies. I'm happy to let him walk

---

And with that, the circle is complete. :hihi:

Likewise, I am okay with him sticking around, but don't feel like we need to match a huge contract offer if one came along. I'm okay either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

You dont build a scheme around an average to below average player - to make him the best he can possibly be. You do that for stars. I mean, I am sure there are ways we can make Adams look much better, but you dont make that a priority.

He has failed in numerous opportunities, in different roles. And if he showed ability to be as great as this guy thinks he can be in those moments when he was playing other ways, a coach would bend over backwards to design a team around him. But I guarantee you he will never be the player this guy seems to think he can be and the blame will always be on someone else. Like there is some great talent underneath it all and there is a conspiracy to hold him back

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The concept of Lonzo Ball being held back is what LaVar is speaking into existence. Lonzo is obviously just not that good and never will be. We will learn about David Griffin’s talent evaluation and managerial acumen by how he handles Lonzo this offseason.

Ah. So we are all finally in agreement. Took long enough. :hihi:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Ah. So we are all finally in agreement. Took long enough. :hihi:

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Well you know, took everyone March to shake off the February funk that had them fooled.

I like him a lot and at times it came together, but I just can’t see it. The consistency isn’t there and he is a bit fragile mentally. Even in a contract year, he is really struggling to stand out and impress and he wants big money. That is a red flag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

You guys, I don't think we need to pay Lonzo

His shot has improved, but you'll never ever see him get a shooters roll. It's either in or it's out. It's a perplexing jumper in that it kind of looks sound now, but you wouldn't call it pretty like a Dame or Steph or Joe Harris.

And then there's all the other deficiencies. I'm happy to let him walk

---

Like it always feels like he's shooting it too hard. Like he's sling shotting the thing in there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Read it again. Read it twice. Nowhere in anything I typed, did I say YOU are weird. I said some of the takes on this board around Ingram are weird, and they are. I gave a few numbers to illustrate what I meant to support that.

Lots of players lose games in last minutes. Did you see Giannis with Milwaukee last night? I almost felt bad for him because that was not pretty. Ingram has also won some games with big shots recently.

This team has lots of issues to sort, but Ingram isn't one of them.

---

I just don't see the team buying into the coach's defensive philosophy. You expect a struggle with a new system, but not last or close to last in the league. I generally like Van Gundy. And maybe my expectations were unfairly high for at least the playoffs, but this team is much further from that reality than I thought.

There is something wrong with this article dated today. Can anybody spot it?

https://fadeawayworld.net/2021/04/26...or-lonzo-ball/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

There is something wrong with this article dated today. Can anybody spot it?

https://fadeawayworld.net/2021/04/26...or-lonzo-ball/

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at glance...

i see lonzo in 5 different jerseys and none of them are ours lol....

the writer thinks lonzo is a 3rd piece to move those teams into good playoff runs....

thinks lonzo is the playmaker that will make everybody around him better...

think lonzo is a good defender that will make a team that play defense better...

i didnt go deep into it so help me see it.......im just ready for a new season...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

at glance...

i see lonzo in 5 different jerseys and none of them are ours lol....

the writer thinks lonzo is a 3rd piece to move those teams into good playoff runs....

thinks lonzo is the playmaker that will make everybody around him better...

think lonzo is a good defender that will make a team that play defense better...

i didnt go deep into it so help me see it.......im just ready for a new season...

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Daniel Gafford doesn't play for the Bulls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Daniel Gafford doesn't play for the Bulls.

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yeah he was a draft deadline trade to Washington .....

so did the writer not do his homework before he wrote this or was this a deal before the deadline that was offered for lonzo?....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

yeah he was a draft deadline trade to Washington .....

so did the writer not do his homework before he wrote this or was this a deal before the deadline that was offered for lonzo?....

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He screwed up because this is exact paragraph that suggests a sign and trade....

"Coby White has potential as a shooter and scorer, but he probably won’t be the playmaker or defender that Lonzo is. Gafford is also looking like a starting NBA center, but they have Vucevic taking up the majority of the minutes and that will slow down Gafford’s growth. The Pelicans could use Chicago’s duo to boost their depth and moving Lonzo could be key in the case of a sign and trade."

How much do you guys think he wants this off-season and how much do you think he realistically gets?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akhan786

How much do you guys think he wants this off-season and how much do you think he realistically gets?

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How much does he want? A max

How much do I think he'll realistically get? I can see someone like Chicago or New York offering him $20m or more, honestly. I doubt anyone will go full max but I would not be remotely surprised if Chicago double down on their ''we need to win'' thing since trading for Vucevic and go big on a guy we know they've had interest in before.

Only 10 more pages of this until Lonzo gets paid.

An interesting article. It doesn't move the needle for me, but I do find "Bullet Point 2" very interesting.

https://clutchpoints.com/lonzo-ball-...n-lamelo-ball/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

An interesting article. It doesn't move the needle for me, but I do find "Bullet Point 2" very interesting.

https://clutchpoints.com/lonzo-ball-...n-lamelo-ball/

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That article's 2nd point is not making the point it thinks it's making.

Quote:

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If Lonzo continues to come out with aggression on the defensive end, it will only be a matter of time until we see the eldest Ball brother get selected to an All-NBA defensive team in the future

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They say the above, and their evidence for it is this:

Quote:

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Aside from his shooting which needs more improvement, Lonzo has already shown his potential to be a great defender in the league in recent seasons. In fact, he has been listed as the top defender taking on the toughest assignments on the floor this season, per BBall Index.

Throughout their games in the 2020-21 season, Lonzo Ball has been regularly tasked to guard the opposing scorer with the likes of Damian Lillard, Stephen Curry, Devin Booker, and Donovan Mitchell, among others. The defensive awareness that he possesses has already sparked many runs for the Pelicans and helped them win a handful of tight games thus far.

---

This is not good news for Lonzo. He has been regularly tasked to guard those guys and he has been regularly shredded by them all, at rates of volume and efficiency far above their season averages, the entire year long. He gets tough assignments, sure, but just getting those assignments alone is not good enough: the reality is that when he gets them, this does not bother the offensive player. In terms of his actual on-court defensive output, he has spent significant portions of this season looking far worse than he has in past seasons.

He still makes a defensive impact in metric stats because he does rack up a good number of steals and deflections, which obviously are good, but a lot of these come off-ball and therefore don't actually link into the ''he defends Lillard'' point: he's not taking those guys on 1v1 and picking their pocket, he's getting his stuff in elsewhere. Which is still fine, those off-ball steals are valuable, but they don't support the idea that he himself is some kind of elite defender for taking on these matchups. The less said about the final comment regarding close games (several of which have seen him absolutely vanish entirely) the better; we do not win those games, by and large.

This kind of incoherent, incomplete thinking is evident in their next point in the same article as well: their third point for why Lonzo will have a better career than LaMelo is

Quote:

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Lonzo Ball has been on a tear lately as he recorded impressive stat lines to start the month of May heading to the latter stages of the regular season. On May 1 against the Minnesota Timberwolves, he notched 33 points on eight three-pointers made along with 11 rebounds and eight assists.

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Which is like... uh... again, not the point they think they're making. They do, to their credit, mention that he is inconsistent, but this is precisely why the point they're making doesn't matter. He had a hot February as well, only to collapse for much of April. He had a hot February last season, only to collapse through the end of the year and the bubble. The inconsistency is the point, nobody has ever said he's incapable of having a good game on an individual night; that's not the issue.

Will he have a better career than LaMelo? Maybe, careers aren't defined by upside alone, nor by individual talent (#ringzzz, you know the deal) but thus far LaMelo has shown more in his rookie year than Lonzo has his entire career.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

BI and Zion are basically the best, if not one of the top 2 or 3 duo guys in the league.

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lmao....no.

If we had the best(or in that conversation) duo in the league, we wouldn't have the record we do.

Can you have the best duo in the league and not be the top team in the league? Or even one of the top 5?

Of course....

but when you have our record, you simply can't make the argument that we have the best duo in the league. Denver, Milwaukee, both LA teams have clearly better duos....and the list doesn't stop there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tacosman

lmao....no.

If we had the best(or in that conversation) duo in the league, we wouldn't have the record we do.

Can you have the best duo in the league and not be the top team in the league? Or even one of the top 5?

Of course....

but when you have our record, you simply can't make the argument that we have the best duo in the league. Denver, Milwaukee, both LA teams have clearly better duos....and the list doesn't stop there.

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Yeah, I'm souring on BI a lot

He's just so slow and clanks a lot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Yeah, I'm souring on BI a lot

He's just so slow and clanks a lot

---

Offensively I think he's good. He's not the number one option on a good team, and on an elite team he might be the third option, but he's very good.

Defensively he's flat out one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

People like to rag on Zion's defense, and it definitely has room to improve, but when you look at Ingram, there's no comparison in the results.

Stat	Zion Williamson	Brandon Ingram
D-BPM	-0.4 (96th in NBA)	-1.4 (157th in NBA)
D-LEBRON	-0.56 (376th in NBA)	-0.86 (433rd in NBA)
D-EPM	+0.5 (126th in NBA)	-1.6 (420th in NBA)
D-RAPTOR	-0.8 (165th in NBA)	-2.3 (226th in NBA)

Just by every metric, Ingram is a dreadful, dreadful defensive player.

1. Yes agreed Lonzo has guarded the top players, and also got shredded by them so instead of being a 3 and D, this year he’s been a 3pt ace, that’s about it.

2. Ingrams D is bad but he’s still only 23 so still room to improve but not holding my breath. On the other hand he’s absolutely amazing offensively, people who disagree with that are flat out wrong. He can get his own shot anywhere, and is good off ball and shoots a high percentage from the field, 3, and the stripe.

Says this team is heading right direction? Won’t pay Lonzo? Which one is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Says this team is heading right direction? Won’t pay Lonzo? Which one is it?

---

Rather apply Lonzo money elsewhere and try and develop NAW and Kira, and probably the rookie we draft this year will also be a guard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

Rather apply Lonzo money elsewhere and try and develop NAW and Kira, and probably the rookie we draft this year will also be a guard

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But if you don’t play defense, don’t coach defense it will be the same ol ******** next season too.

Who cares ? Right ! As long as they are developing. Lol. We are a learning team . What did we learn on defense this season?

How can you trade for a very good player ? You have to send some picks and some salary. It?s better if the player with high salary still has some upside and IMO Lonzo fits that. That?s why IMO it?s better for the team to keep Lonzo even if they have to overpay

Do we live in a Universe where Lonzo spends all of his time on driving to the rim, finishing through contact and making some nice Lamelo type passes in the heart of the defense?

He's so quick. He has the ability to get a better handle. I think it's a possibility

I wouldn't bet on it though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Do we live in a Universe where Lonzo spends all of his time on driving to the rim, finishing through contact and making some nice Lamelo type passes in the heart of the defense?

He's so quick. He has the ability to get a better handle. I think it's a possibility

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Don’t think he has the mindset to do that, nor do we really need him to. Zion and Ingram should give us all the iso ball, facilitating, and driving to the rim that we need. What we need are elite shooters and defenders. Keep it simple, spread the floor, let Zion and Ingram score, stop other team from scoring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

Don’t think he has the mindset to do that, nor do we really need him to. Zion and Ingram should give us all the iso ball, facilitating, and driving to the rim that we need. What we need are elite shooters and defenders. Keep it simple, spread the floor, let Zion and Ingram score, stop other team from scoring.

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Zion and Ingram don't share the court 100% of the time.

You need your guards to be able to attack the rim. Everyone needs to be able to attack the rim.

If you're a pretty speedy 6 foot 6 guard who thinks he's a point, you best be charging at dat rim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Zion and Ingram don't share the court 100% of the time.

You need your guards to be able to attack the rim. Everyone needs to be able to attack the rim.

If you're a pretty speedy 6 foot 6 guard who thinks he's a point, you best be charging at dat rim

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Fair enough

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Zion and Ingram don't share the court 100% of the time.

You need your guards to be able to attack the rim. Everyone needs to be able to attack the rim.

If you're a pretty speedy 6 foot 6 guard who thinks he's a point, you best be charging at dat rim

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Totally agree; a 6'6'' guard should be an asset when operating in the paint (driving and posting up)...not a liability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Totally agree; a 6'6'' guard should be an asset when operating in the paint (driving and posting up)...not a liability.

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Yep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HornetGuru

1. Yes agreed Lonzo has guarded the top players, and also got shredded by them so instead of being a 3 and D, this year he’s been a 3pt ace, that’s about it.

2. Ingrams D is bad but he’s still only 23 so still room to improve but not holding my breath. On the other hand he’s absolutely amazing offensively, people who disagree with that are flat out wrong. He can get his own shot anywhere, and is good off ball and shoots a high percentage from the field, 3, and the stripe.

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Ingram doesn't have the strength, speed, or footwork to match up defensively with his own position on most nights.

Unless it comes out of his mouth of his off season plans... I really wouldn’t put stock in him pulling off a physical evolution to do it.

We all want him to transform overnight into Kawhi, but it's most likely he'll end up as a slower KD that never became a solid defender

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Do we live in a Universe where Lonzo spends all of his time on driving to the rim, finishing through contact and making some nice Lamelo type passes in the heart of the defense?

He's so quick. He has the ability to get a better handle. I think it's a possibility

I wouldn't bet on it though

---

On paper, Lonzo has all of the tools to be a really special point guard. He's 6'6 with a positive wingspan, broad shouldered, fast in a straight line, has a positive vertical that doesn't need a huge amount of time to load up. He's pretty strong as well.

None of that translates into anything on the offensive end.

This year was his career high at FG% at the rim. He shot 62.6% in the restricted area: this is still below league average. And he only did it on 15% of his shots.

Lonzo took 107 shots at the rim this season, total, in 55 games. Monte Morris, who played about 600 fewer minutes total and in only 47 games took 91 shots at the rim this year: Monte Morris is 6'2 with no vertical. 1.94 shots at the rim per game for Lonzo, 1.94 shots at the rim per game for Morris, despite Lonzo averaging 7 more minutes a game.

Zero threat at the rim. He plays a legit 4 or 5 inches shorter than he is.

I also want to add a question; does he have the ability to get a better handle? Sure, maybe a little, but how many guys have ever gone from having poor-to-mediocre handles to having elite handles at any point in their career? It's actually one of the less common things for guys to improve. It does happen, but it's super rare in comparison to other skills.

Damn you, Ainge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

On paper, Lonzo has all of the tools to be a really special point guard. He's 6'6 with a positive wingspan, broad shouldered, fast in a straight line, has a positive vertical that doesn't need a huge amount of time to load up. He's pretty strong as well.

None of that translates into anything on the offensive end.

This year was his career high at FG% at the rim. He shot 62.6% in the restricted area: this is still below league average. And he only did it on 15% of his shots.

Lonzo took 107 shots at the rim this season, total, in 55 games. Monte Morris, who played about 600 fewer minutes total and in only 47 games took 91 shots at the rim this year: Monte Morris is 6'2 with no vertical. 1.94 shots at the rim per game for Lonzo, 1.94 shots at the rim per game for Morris, despite Lonzo averaging 7 more minutes a game.

Zero threat at the rim. He plays a legit 4 or 5 inches shorter than he is.

I also want to add a question; does he have the ability to get a better handle? Sure, maybe a little, but how many guys have ever gone from having poor-to-mediocre handles to having elite handles at any point in their career? It's actually one of the less common things for guys to improve. It does happen, but it's super rare in comparison to other skills.

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One of the most important traits that a player can have is the mental acuity to understand that you need to drive when your threes or jumpers are not falling. Lonzo has the OPPOSITE of this. He thinks that you should keep shooting threes no matter what and never, ever drive.

It's much easier to practice 3's than it is to practice driving to the rim through traffic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Offensively I think he's good. He's not the number one option on a good team, and on an elite team he might be the third option, but he's very good.

Defensively he's flat out one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

People like to rag on Zion's defense, and it definitely has room to improve, but when you look at Ingram, there's no comparison in the results.

Stat	Zion Williamson	Brandon Ingram
D-BPM	-0.4 (96th in NBA)	-1.4 (157th in NBA)
D-LEBRON	-0.56 (376th in NBA)	-0.86 (433rd in NBA)
D-EPM	+0.5 (126th in NBA)	-1.6 (420th in NBA)
D-RAPTOR	-0.8 (165th in NBA)	-2.3 (226th in NBA)

Just by every metric, Ingram is a dreadful, dreadful defensive player.

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BI could be better on defense he doesn't put in the effort. His stance is always upright he never gets low. Zion is not great on defense but at least he tries.