Pelicans looking to get a top 5 pick?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Cool, but here's the problem with your logic. You guys have Hawes in the open market in the MLE tourney at 3yrs 22M's that's 7 million a season. If that's the value for Hawes and Anderson is superior what is Anderson worth in the open market? You build the guy up when it's fits your narrative then you find a way to say he doesn't have value when that fits your narrative. You want it both ways.

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I think it's been said multiple times that Ryno's value was in the 10-11M range on the open market. The injury might have hurt him but one year removed and a good showing and I think he is right back there.

If Anderson was a FA after last year, I think he would have gotten around 10 mil per. Maybe 8-9 mil if he became one this year.

But what a guy gets in FA does not equate with value IMO. It is as much potential and fit. There will be 10 big guys who get more annually than Diaw this summer who aren't half the player. Just watch.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If Anderson was a FA after last year, I think he would have gotten around 10 mil per. Maybe 8-9 mil if he became one this year.

But what a guy gets in FA does not equate with value IMO. It is as much potential and fit. There will be 10 big guys who get more annually than Diaw this summer who aren't half the player. Just watch.

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How much do you think gordon hayward and parsons will get?

Im thinking Hayward 12 mil because he is 2 years younger
Parsons 11 million

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Hawes is hitting free agency at 26 years and 1 month of age. Anderson will hit it at the age of 28. Also, Hawes is a legit 7 footer, and we live in a world where Jerome James gets paid because he is 7 feet tall. Todd Fuller gets drafted ahead of Kobe.

All I can do is look at the past and try to predict the future. I don't try to create a narrative. If you can find me 28 yr olds with Anderson's size, skill set, and production that got huge contracts, then I will say that I might be wrong. And maybe there aren't any, but I will be wrong anyway, but the past does not indicate that.

Example - Isaiah Thomas will get way underpaid for his production this summer because he doesn't fit a prototypical profile. Boris Diaw won't get paid this summer despite being a Finals MVP candidate. Some guys just don't get paid big money despite their production because they fit only certain teams and/or don't fit a prototype.

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So you are saying that 2" and 2 years are the difference between a par center getting 7 million per and a guy you think can be a core player on a championship team getting almost the same salary.

Again I'm just not getting how a player can be so valuable one minute and then so unvaluable next.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

How much do you think gordon hayward and parsons will get?

Im thinking Hayward 12 mil because he is 2 years younger
Parsons 11 million

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I think they are both 12M/yr or over. But so much depends on other players. If LBJ and Melo opt out. Is Parsons used as a S&T to clear Lin and Asik?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

So you are saying that 2" and 2 years are the difference between a par center getting 7 million per and a guy you think can be a core player on a championship team getting almost the same salary.

Again I'm just not getting how a player can be so valuable one minute and then so unvaluable next.

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I get what ur saying, but i think MM is trying to think Ryno is more valuable to our team in general, maybe to space the floor for tyreke since we don't have a SF who can do that, therefor we need a 4 to space it, regardless of where the spacing comes from. I completely understand what ur saying though.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I think they are both 12M/yr or over. But so much depends on other players. If LBJ and Melo opt out. Is Parsons used as a S&T to clear Lin and Asik?

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I understand, for this team if salary cap wasn't an issue, how much would u pay each one for us if both were UFA?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

So you are saying that 2" and 2 years are the difference between a par center getting 7 million per and a guy you think can be a core player on a championship team getting almost the same salary.

Again I'm just not getting how a player can be so valuable one minute and then so unvaluable next.

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Jrue is considered a core piece on a 10-11M/yr contract. Reke is considered a core piece and is on a 11M declining contract. Why is it so hard to believe Ryno who is valued at around 10M/yr can be a core piece? Are only max players core pieces?

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

I understand, for this team if salary cap wasn't an issue, how much would u pay each one for us if both were UFA?

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If salary cap is no issue then I'd offer a max because it wouldn't matter. But every other team would too.

If I'm having to deal with a salary cap but both are UFA I go up to 13-14M range for Parsons. Hayward I'd offer less. I have Parsons rated higher.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I think it's been said multiple times that Ryno's value was in the 10-11M range on the open market. The injury might have hurt him but one year removed and a good showing and I think he is right back there.

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The question becomes after 2 seasons can we afford to re-sign Anderson when we'll need to sign Evans and Holiday the following offseason? These are the kinds of questions you also have to consider.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

I get what ur saying, but i think MM is trying to think Ryno is more valuable to our team in general, maybe to space the floor for tyreke since we don't have a SF who can do that, therefor we need a 4 to space it, regardless of where the spacing comes from. I completely understand what ur saying though.

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You would have to believe we are the only team that values floor spacing or believe that's all Anderson does for that concept to make sense.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Jrue is considered a core piece on a 10-11M/yr contract. Reke is considered a core piece and is on a 11M declining contract. Why is it so hard to believe Ryno who is valued at around 10M/yr can be a core piece? Are only max players core pieces?

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A core piece for what? A solid playoff team or a title contender? I've never viewed neither Holiday or Evans as a core piece for a championship team at any points in their respective career and nothing have changed since they got here.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

A core piece for what? A solid playoff team or a title contender? I've never viewed neither Holiday or Evans as a core piece for a championship team at any points in their respective career and nothing have changed since they got here.

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haven't you yourself said the most you can hope to build is a WCF competitor? the rest is luck and other factors you can't control.

if that is the goal I think our team healthy and with an AD who has taken another step is just that. AD is key to any hope of our future team.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

haven't you yourself said the most you can hope to build is a WCF competitor? the rest is luck and other factors you can't control.

if that is the goal I think our team healthy and with an AD who has taken another step is just that. AD is key to any hope of our future team.

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I agree about AD, I also think jrue and tyreke are good core pieces. I also think ryno can be one but I think it would be better off getting a core SF and getting a cheap bruising center, I think this would make the team more complete.

Right now we don't have a SF who can spread the floor or a big that can defend the post, if we get a SF at least we address 1 of those issues.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

haven't you yourself said the most you can hope to build is a WCF competitor? the rest is luck and other factors you can't control.

if that is the goal I think our team healthy and with an AD who has taken another step is just that. AD is key to any hope of our future team.

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Yes, but as I just said this group IMO isn't that. Again I respect your views because you have way higher expectations for Davis than I do. However not only do I not share you ceiling for Davis even if he reaches "your" ceiling we still are a long shot to be title contenders IMO.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

The question becomes after 2 seasons can we afford to re-sign Anderson when we'll need to sign Evans and Holiday the following offseason? These are the kinds of questions you also have to consider.

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Now you are changing the discussion. You asked what his real value was and I gave it. As far as resigning him, it all depends. We can bring him back no doubt if we like our core as is or we can S&T him for different pieces.

That's one of the less discussed pieces of what Dell is doing. Instead of having a ton of young guys and hoping they develop you use developed guys to bring in core pieces around a then developed AD. Personally I think that's better because you know what AD is a lot better than drafting and hoping around your leader who is still too young to know what his game will be.

Also. Completely random and I don't know if anyone will get it but. . . GOALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

I don't know what is so hard to understand - guys get overpaid at 23, 24 coming off their first contract. It doesn't happen nearly as often in their next one.

Just watch what Lowry gets despite having a better year than guys who will get paid more than him. And he will be better over the next 3-4 years than a lot of the guys who get more money. I don't worry about Jrue, Reke, and Ryno getting overpaid on their next deals - not because they won't be good, but because even really good players don't often get overpaid at that stage of their career. I don't get it or agree with it, but it is how teams have done things in free agency historically.

This is what I found brilliant about Dell's move with Holiday - he found a guy who was extended at a bit of a discount, so that first overpay is avoided, and history says the 2nd one is rare. To me, guys like Greg Monroe and Klay Thompson are the kind of guys I would avoid - guys who are nowhere near max players that will get it because of their "potential". The team can't afford to let them walk because of the small chance they take a leap, but won't get them at their fair value either.

MM... Being a legit 7 footer is part of what actually could make Hawes more valuable. He can defend Centers.

I strongly disagree that the luxury of having Ryan Anderson coming off the bench, makes this team better next year than having Dunleavy starting at SF, Hawes at Center, and Vonleh coming off the bench.

Hawes and Dunleavy both stretch the court, and Vonleh can give you 20 mpg of serious production.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

MM... Being a legit 7 footer is part of what actually could make Hawes more valuable. He can defend Centers.

I strongly disagree that the luxury of having Ryan Anderson coming off the bench, makes this team better next year than having Dunleavy starting at SF, Hawes at Center, and Vonleh coming off the bench.

Hawes and Dunleavy both stretch the court, and Vonleh can give you 20 mpg of serious production.

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Why is it automatically assumed Ryno will always come off the bench? When he was healthy he and AD were starters,

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Why is it automatically assumed Ryno will always come off the bench? When he was healthy he and AD were starters,

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And even if he does, the guy got 36 minutes and finished games last year. Same as any other "starter"

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

And even if he does, the guy got 36 minutes and finished games last year. Same as any other "starter"

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36 minutes and closing games is a "luxury" obviously.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

36 minutes and closing games is a "luxury" obviously.

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I think his skill set is a luxury in that you can win with a guy like that but don't need it the way you need a perimeter guy who can set up, a big who can defend the paint, etc.

But he is such a good player, and I feel like most of us believe that too, but those who disagree have a loud voice and aren't afraid to use it. He is a top 40-50 player on a contract that will be somewhere between 120-140 in terms of how high it is in relation to others in the league.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I think his skill set is a luxury in that you can win with a guy like that but don't need it the way you need a perimeter guy who can set up, a big who can defend the paint, etc.

But he is such a good player, and I feel like most of us believe that too, but those who disagree have a loud voice and aren't afraid to use it. He is a top 40-50 player on a contract that will be somewhere between 120-140 in terms of how high it is in relation to others in the league.

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I wouldn't say a "luxury" skill as much as "alternate". He's not a standard type of big and therefor not every team can take advantage of him but as Dirk and others have shown, those types of players can be just as valuable as standard ones.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I wouldn't say a "luxury" skill as much as "alternate". He's not a standard type of big and therefor not every team can take advantage of him but as Dirk and others have shown, those types of players can be just as valuable as standard ones.

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Yeah, I don't know the word I am looking for. Maybe, non-universal?

I feel like there is an inside of the box idea of the 5 positions. Almost nobody refers to Ryno as a PF; its always a "stretch four"

Unconventional, but I agree, that doesn't mean less valuable. Diaw is an unconventional big. Derek Fisher was an unconventional PG, Horry and unconventional PF, Jason Terry an unconventional PG (where he often finished games before Kidd), etc. etc.

And guys like that often have more value to some teams than others, so they don't get crazy salaries, but the value is undoubtedly there. Ryno was crazy good his last year in Orlando, but how many bigs were there like Dwight on other teams that had money to bid for him? Ryno is a better player than Chandler Parsons or Gordon Hayward, but Hayward and Parsons will get paid more every time.

I know this is kind of irrelevant but they have Hayward and parsons rated in the mid to high 80's in 2k but they have Anderson rated at like a 67 which is outrageous. I know it's a video game but the outright disrespect Anderson gets on that game and just in general is bad. He's incredibly underrated and I say that as he averaged 20 ppg last season before his injury.