Is this your plan, or also what the Hornets are thinking? Just curious.Originally Posted by CP3 & 11 others
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Is this your plan, or also what the Hornets are thinking? Just curious.
CP3, come on man, you're a great poster, but one or two games don't mean jack ****. Chris had a bad shooting game, one or two other guys didn't play well too I'm sure. It had nothing to do with Pop "figuring out" the pick and roll. That's absurd. It's been showed over the years that play is the toughest to stop in basketball when you have the right players doing it. And with a great PG, a super athletic C, and three other good shooters; we had ideal players.
I actually posted many times in the beginning of last season on this. We ran the pick and roll then against the good teams like SA and CLE, and they couldn't stop it. We went away from it against some bad teams, and lost those games. Anyway, this isn't important anymore since TC is gone, just wanted to bring up that point bc I just think it's another strange Byron Scott theory.
I think Campbell is a fair comparison for Okafor. Sounds like your friend knows his stuff.Can Okafor beat people with skill in the post though like Campbell did, or is it more with brawn? He doesn't seem like a guy who can catch it "on the block" 8 feet away, take a dribble or two and then do his thing. I've always thought of him as a guy who may need really deep post position in order to score. But like I said, I don't watch the Bobcats much, so I don't know for sure.
And please, Tyson couldn't hold his own against a Duncan or Dwight.The guy was a foul magnet and would pick up 3 fouls in 5 minutes against guys like that. People remember too much the second half of Game 7 and the great job he did on Duncan then, but the reason we had to double Duncan for 6 and a half games is bc Tyson couldn't stay out of foul trouble against him. Tyson probably got in foul trouble at one of the 3-4 highest rates in the NBA, if I had to guess.
Instead of arguing, I will refer you to hornets247.com where the guy posted a chart on TC's defense that will change your mind. Also, even when given no help TC did a great job relatively on Duncan and Dwight. Peopel say "Duncan still scored 20- that is around his average, how did TC do a great job?" It is because Duncan scores 20 when doubled normally and 30 when single covered by other teams, yet TC kept him in ralative check singling him. But again, no argument, just go read that chart and find a way to disagree with facts. And yes he gets in foul trouble but anyone with Dwest as a sidekick on defense would.
Believe what you want on the pick and roll but the numbers dont lie. Our PPG were drastically down even at the beginning of last year and the number of CP3 to TC ally oops per game were down as well even when TC was healthy.
And yes, Okafor can make some moves off a dribble or two if given time and not doubled. When he gets doubled he gets flustered, but he is 26 and will have more space to work with us than he ever had in Charlotte, so 4-6 points in the post off jump hooks or up and unders arent out of the question with 6-10 PPG coming off dunks, easy buckets, FT's, etc- making 12-16 PPG realistic and expected.
Oh 100 percent me. Sorry, I thought I clarified that.
But Byron has acknowledged that like the 80's Pistons he wants more toughness from his bigs. He even talked about it at this years summer league.
Very true on the Okafor point
As for the second point, that just reminds me too much of the story we were fed last offseason on Julian getting PT. I insisted that there weren't going to be minutes for him, and that turned out to be the case. I just don't see Scott playing those two players only 22 minutes a game each if they are healthy. Anyway, how many minutes do you have Thornton and Collison playing in your mind? Just curious bc I'd like for them to be out there too.
If and when we get one more big I would see the minutes like this:
West: 35
CP3: 34
Okafor:34
Butler:29
Peja:26
Posey: 22
Wright: 20
Collsion: 16
Thornton:8
Backup big (FA/trade) and/or Hilton: 16
And this is the 10 man rotation if everyone is healthy. Of course if someone gets hurt those mins will be distributed, etc.
TC did a great job on Duncan in the second half of game 7. He could do a great job in certain home games against good teams, bc he'd be hyped up and play up to his potential. But the 60 games or so games a year that were on the road or against mediocre teams at home, Tyson was nothing but a foul magnet against good post players. You don't agree that Tyson was like the typical NBA player that sleepwalks throught 3/4 of the games each year, and only showed up when the bright lights were on? That was a clear pattern I saw with him, and one of the main reasons the Hornets would "beat the good teams at home, and lose to the crappy teams". He'd be awesome against SAN, DAL, or CLE at home; but be nowhere to be found on the road or against mediocre teams.
They were down bc we didn't run the pick-and-roll that much with Tyson being the pick man. For some reason, we would run it a lot with West setting the pick, and it has never worked as well that way bc it doesn't space the floor as well. My guess is they were trying to be less predictable and not to overwork Chandler, and would have went back to it the old way later in the season. But Chandler got hurt, and they never had that opportunity.
Good stuff on the last paragraph. Your friend sounds like he knows his stuff.
I can live with that, but it just doesn't leave enough room for manueverability. You know me, I want to play the young talent. If Thornton is ballin', he needs to be playing more than that, and Posey or Peja needs to be on the bench not playing. Same for Wright and even Collison.
I still would be pleased if they would trade Posey, though I read what you said earlier. I just don't see what the point is in having him since we aren't a championship contender. I know what he brings, but it's not going to put us over the top or anything like that. If we win 3-4 more games bc of him, heck, even if he's the difference btw winning a round in the playoffs; is it really worth it?
Well everyone has their own opinions, as I have mine, and in that respect nobody is wrong. But in some coaches and FO's opinion the offense that worked so well in 07-08 was figured out as teams would just stay on Peja, go under the picks, therefore covering TC on his roll and say to CP3- "if you wanna score go ahead" But CP3, as we all know, never shoots in the first half, and wants to get his teammates involved which is super tough to do when none of them create their own shot and now CP3 cant create as much for them because teams are just staying on those guys.
So this offseason the idea was "Okay, if teams do that in the future, we want guys around CP3 who can get their own" Okafor is above average for a center in that respect, like Campbell was. Thornton is excellene in that, and Collison can get his own as well. D West can get his own at times, although it often leads to turnovers, and hopefully when Butler leaves we replace him with a 2 who can get his own either to start or to play behind Thornton. Just the threat of those things makes a team have to prepare for so much more than they did last year with CP3 and 11 other guys- hey thats a cool name for a message board sig!
Well its not like these things are set in stone. i am just saying when you look at ESPn after 3 months- their average minutes will be something like this. That means maybe Thornton gets DNP- coaches decision for the first 4 weeks and also has some 20 minute games when hot. But understand, especially with making this move and paying so much money this year, the goal is to win and younger guys will have a shorter leash than vets. Just the way it is.
Yeah, teams would certainly make CP shoot, but he was putting up 35ppg against Tony Parker in games 3-6 due to that strategy. I just don't think that strategy works, bc CP can score.
I agree with the offseason idea in your second paragraph. But I agree simply bc you have to be diverse on offense and not rely on the same thing over and over. If you only needed one play to win in basketball, then the Lakers wouldn't need Gasol since they'd just give it to Kobe every time.
I just don't agree that the pick and roll was being figured out, it never would have been figured out if Chandler would have stayed healthy. But I do wholeheartedly agree with the offseason mandate to improve the offensive options around CP.
I have mixed feelings on this bc this team isn't going to win big until it develops some young talent that can upgrade the roster. That's not going to happen unless you give players the opportunity to learn and grow on the court. Posey/Peja are never going to play spare minutes unless they are injured, so that's going to be tough to do.
I just think we are overcrowded at the 3, and it's the perfect classic opportunity to trade a guy to "clear up the logjam to create an opportunity for a young player." You hear that sort of phrase all the time in sports when a veteran is traded simply to create PT for a young player, and it just makes a ton of sense here.
Oh well. Not going to happen so we might as well move on.
I have mixed feelings on this bc this team isn't going to win big until it develops some young talent that can upgrade the roster. That's not going to happen unless you give players the opportunity to learn and grow on the court. Posey/Peja are never going to play spare minutes unless they are injured, so that's going to be tough to do.
I just think we are overcrowded at the 3, and it's the perfect classic opportunity to trade a guy to "clear up the logjam to create an opportunity for a young player." You hear that sort of phrase all the time in sports when a veteran is traded simply to create PT for a young player, and it just makes a ton of sense here.
Oh well. Not going to happen so we might as well move on.
I mean they are trying. If they could trade Posey for Big Baby- you have everybody in the rotation under 30 years old. But they shouldnt just give him away to force minutes down JuJu's throat.
But guys will get the minutes they earn whether they are 24 or 35. If JuJu proves to be too valuable to take out, then he will not be taken out. but that is up to Wright, thornton, etc. - not Scott.
TC will only play at 100% for about 30 games next year. That alone, makes this a good trade for the Hornets. We may still get another center before this offseason is done. TC has also been an unhappy camper since the failed OKC trade.
Usually when a trade happens, I'll write something like "on the surface, it makes no sense" and then proceed to walk you through all the cap ramifications to show why a seemingly lopsided deal can actually make some sense.
This isn't one of those.
I'm just as puzzled as anyone why the Bobcats would agree to trade Emeka Okafor for Tyson Chandler, because in terms of both basketball and cap implications the deal makes a lot more sense for New Orleans than it does for Charlotte.
The Hornets pulled off the rare feat of saving money while becoming a better team. Yes, Okafor's contract runs three years longer, but that matters much less than the near-term implications of having a lower payroll this year and next year because of the luxury tax calculations.
He'll save the Hornets $1.1 million in salary and another $1.1 million in luxury tax, and puts them close enough to the tax line that the Hornets could put themselves under by bribing somebody to take Antonio Daniels at the trade deadline. That will be difficult, yes, but it's not impossible.
Ditto for next year, where the Hornets are already threatening the lowered tax threshold for next summer and the trade would give them an extra $1.2 million in wiggle room to add players. (This presumes Chandler doesn't opt out of the final year of his contract at $12.7 million, which based on his present production would be fiscal insanity).
And, as I mentioned, Okafor is better. Both players have consistently been honorable mention getters in my All-Defense picks, but Okafor is a superior scorer. That may not be saying much -- both players are somewhat limited offensively -- but Okafor can score on post-ups occasionally and make short bank shots, while Chandler's range ends at the charge circle. Over the past three years, Okafor has averaged nearly five points more per 40 minutes -- that's big.
The health disparity between the two has also been mentioned, but look closer and I'm not sure there's any difference. Okafor has averaged 66 games per season over the course of his career, Chandler 67. Chandler has a bad toe that already nuked one trade, but Okafor has a problematic back. Okafor has played 82 games each of the past two years, but over their careers their injury histories show little separation. Age isn't an issue either -- they were born four days apart.
Nevertheless, the Hornets have to be stoked. Getting a not-quite-All-Star caliber center who will do the dirty work on D and also score a little improves their chances of hanging with the West's upper crust, though there remains much work to be done.
As for the idea that this shows a willingness by the Hornets to spend, I'd only believe it up to a point. Yes, they could have just done a straight salary dump of Chandler to ease their way under the tax line, so in that framework their striving to keep the team competitive merits applause. But they did cut their payroll the next two years with this deal and the ones after that don't matter nearly as much -- based on present deals New Orleans goes well under the cap in 2011 even with Okafor's money tacked on. Besides, by then they'll be in a new arena in Las Vegas and money won't be so tight (Kidding, people, kidding ... back off with the knives).
As for Charlotte, I don't get it. This was already a terrible offensive team, ranking 27th in the NBA in Offensive Efficiency a year ago. Chandler is a demonstrably worse offensive player than Okafor, and his one offensive skill (throwing down dunks off pick-and-rolls) doesn't seem to mesh terribly well with the Bobcats' personnel.
Charlotte fans will point out that they freed up some cap space for 2011; of course that space might have been more easily obtained by not signing Okafor to a six-year, $72 million deal a year ago when they were bidding against themselves.
It's hard to believe that the Bobcats' front office had that severe a change of heart over a player in just 12 months, especially when Okafor put up a pretty typical season by his standards. This is prime golfing season in northern Illinois so you know Michael Jordan wasn't pushing for it, and Rod Higgins is too sensible to pull such an overnight 180.
That brings up two other plausible possibilities. The first is that this is a classic Larry Brown grass-is-greener trade. Okafor is a good player but he doesn't exude passion for the game and Brown had grumbled about this last season. Chandler is certainly more passionate, and perhaps Brown -- infamous for wanting to trade everybody on the roster -- convinced management to make the swap. (And by "convinced," I mean "whined incessantly about it until they finally agreed to do it just so he'd shut up.")
The other possibility is that it was driven by owner Robert Johnson's need to sell the team. In that case, clearing the $40 million owed on the final three years of Okafor's contract removed a potential liability from his books, possibly making it easier for him to unload the team sooner. If that ends up happening, Bobcats fans might still feel like they won the trade.
Whatever the motivation, it sure as heck doesn't make them a better basketball team. There isn't a wide gulf separating these two players, but Okafor has been consistently more productive, particularly at the offensive end. For a team that desperately needs to find more scoring, it was an odd way to try to improve. And for the Hornets, it's a tremendous opportunity to keep pace with the heavy hitters out West.
Now I know how Laker fans felt when they got Pau Gasol.
Thinking about it, (in the west) while he might be outsized, who is going to out muscle Okafor? Bynum? Soft. Okur? Soft.Pryzbilla? If he can stay healthy maybe? Oden? Not smart enough yet.Amare? No. Erika Dampier? Maybe. Scola? No.
While Emeka might be undersized his smarts and toughness inside will allow him to beat out a lot of the wests better centers, and with him being the 4th option here in new orleans he will have more of a chance to hurt people.
Should be fun to see.
well i wouldn't exactly say i feel like Laker fans did when they git Gasol, but if we can rid ourselves of TC who really isn't a good player at all and get a guy who's gonna work hard, do all the small things and bring some scoring in the low post (which we've lacked since we lost Maglorie) i'd be all for it.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
Just throwing my 2 pennies into the thread...
Excited about this trade....think it will help us...Hopefully Okafor can have a blow out season and step it up to prove a point to people.
'' We are here!!''
That is what I mean. We are getting something for nothing.
On a different note. Why can't Hilton be our backup 4, instead of our backup 5. I noticed he played better at the pf spot than he did center.
I am stoked about this trade. CP3 made TC a virtually non-existent scoring option before he got here into someone who could score between 8-12, Okafor on the other hand can score sometimes and with CP could actually become a legit 20/10/2 guy. I can't wait to see this finalized and announced with Okafor sporting a Hornets Jersey.
I agree- thats why I said we essentially have 3 PF's- West, Okafor, and Hilton- we need a true backup center to round out the rotation. A Jeff Foster type would be ideal. Battie for AD would be perfect IMO or something equivalent.
West is 6-9 not 6-8
+1, we don't need Big baby anymore...
I'd love too get Petro, he is still very young : http://hoopshype.com/players/johan_petro.htm
I love the trade, and I disagree that Okafor is a PF. Sure 6'10 doesn't equate to 7'1, but when you consider his wing span and ability to time and block shots... plus he plays with good leverage and doesn't get "pushed" around in the paint... I'd say the guy is a damm good center.
And... if he slides to PF, then what do we do with DX? We need his scoring, and he's no SF... he's too slow. So I look forward to watching Okafor blocking some shots in the paint, and he's got a MUCH better post game than TC does. he's not "McHale", but he won't look as bad as TC did in the post with the ball.
look, the celtics won the championship every season with a 6-9 center
It doesn't matter if the Hornets have 2 quote PF's in West and Okafor, like someone else mentioned, the true center position is an endangered species. IMHO play the best 5 guys regardless of official position. We don't run a traditional offense anyway that requires that. I can't wait to see a defensive lineup of CP, JuJu, Posey, West and Okafor.
can't wait to look forward to when Hilton comes in and Okafor moves to the 4 at times. Uconn ChampionshiP!
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