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Thread: Ideas for Back-up Big

  1. #51
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! JJackisangry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    What does Asik's medical retirement do for this team? Is it going to put us under the cap to sign someone in the summer? I don't think so. So basically it's paying a player $25 million for absolutely no benefit except that he is off the team. Sounds like bad business. I would rather trade for someone who can actually play. Than pay $15 million a year for 2 players who will play maybe 60 minutes a year combined even if healthy and take up 2 roster spots. Or pay $25 million for a guy to retire and it doesn't benefit the team.
    I would assume that it makes him a more attractive asset to other teams... hence the value goes up. If we trade him now, the other teams hold the cards and we give up more assets.

  2. #52
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    Other teams cannot benefit from the medical retirement only the Pels I believe, but I welcome someone to correct me.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN View Post
    Other teams cannot benefit from the medical retirement only the Pels I believe, but I welcome someone to correct me.
    That has already been covered in this thread.
    @mcnamara247

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    What does Asik's medical retirement do for this team?
    His contract being removed moves us further away from the luxury tax which would allow us to use exceptions to add more players to the team. This should be obvious. It's not only about being under the tax, it's also about how much tax we pay. If this summer we can turn Asik's 10m into 2-3 useful players (maybe even use an exception on Rondo and/or Clark) then that's a far better use of the money.

    Tyson Chandler locks us into a big on a 13m/yr contract who will play 12-15 minutes a game for us. It doesn't really matter if he was playing like prime Tyson, that is a bad use of our funds. Combined with you wanting to give away a 1st for the chance to put ourselves in that situation and it's just nonsense, especially wanting to make that type of move before we know what's going to happen with Asik.

    If you cannot see how Asik's deal coming off the books is MUCH better for the team than using a 1st to dump it and take back a worse contract for a backup center then you are a lost cause.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    His contract being removed moves us further away from the luxury tax which would allow us to use exceptions to add more players to the team. This should be obvious. It's not only about being under the tax, it's also about how much tax we pay. If this summer we can turn Asik's 10m into 2-3 useful players (maybe even use an exception on Rondo and/or Clark) then that's a far better use of the money.

    Tyson Chandler locks us into a big on a 13m/yr contract who will play 12-15 minutes a game for us. It doesn't really matter if he was playing like prime Tyson, that is a bad use of our funds. Combined with you wanting to give away a 1st for the chance to put ourselves in that situation and it's just nonsense, especially wanting to make that type of move before we know what's going to happen with Asik.

    If you cannot see how Asik's deal coming off the books is MUCH better for the team than using a 1st to dump it and take back a worse contract for a backup center then you are a lost cause.
    Chandler doesn't prevent us from using exceptions on Rondo and Clark. And if you were for bringing in Eric Bledsoe as a back-up, luxury tax can not be your argument. And you can't be too concerned about luxury tax if you're willing to pay a guy $25 million to walk away.

    Tyson Chandler allows us to play a Nelson/Clark/Moore/Diallo lineup without losing our rebounding and interior defense advantage. He sets tough screens to get shooters open, he opens up the floor on the P&R because he is still a huge target rolling down the lane for the lob. He has nearly perfect defensive positioning which allows for him to cover up others mistakes. He does all of the little things.

    With Chandler we can allow our 2 bigs to rest more together and play more together. And not have to play 38 minutes against the Brooklyn's and Phoenixs just to keep a rebounder on the floor. That extra rest can be invaluable come playoffs. He also allows us to play Diallo more because he covers up so many mistakes.

    Imagine if Boogie and AD can learn defensive positioning from Tyson Chandler, we would be a defensive juggernaut for the next 10+ years. Also, Chandler knows what it takes to win a championship, bringing that perspective from a big man POV again can be invaluable for AD, Boogie and Diallo.

    Edit: Also looking from a business perspective. Benson probably sees spending $25 million as spending $25 million. Would he want to spend $35 million on 2 useless big men just to keep a first round pick that he will likely have to pay the luxury tax on? Or would he rather spend $25 million on a player who brings so many positives and can help win a championship?
    Last edited by HoustonPelicans; 10-30-2017 at 03:15 AM.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    Chandler doesn't prevent us from using exceptions on Rondo and Clark. And if you were for bringing in Eric Bledsoe as a back-up, luxury tax can not be your argument. And you can't be too concerned about luxury tax if you're willing to pay a guy $25 million to walk away.

    Tyson Chandler allows us to play a Nelson/Clark/Moore/Diallo lineup without losing our rebounding and interior defense advantage. He sets tough screens to get shooters open, he opens up the floor on the P&R because he is still a huge target rolling down the lane for the lob. He has nearly perfect defensive positioning which allows for him to cover up others mistakes. He does all of the little things.

    With Chandler we can allow our 2 bigs to rest more together and play more together. And not have to play 38 minutes against the Brooklyn's and Phoenixs just to keep a rebounder on the floor. That extra rest can be invaluable come playoffs. He also allows us to play Diallo more because he covers up so many mistakes.

    Imagine if Boogie and AD can learn defensive positioning from Tyson Chandler, we would be a defensive juggernaut for the next 10+ years. Also, Chandler knows what it takes to win a championship, bringing that perspective from a big man POV again can be invaluable for AD, Boogie and Diallo.

    Edit: Also looking from a business perspective. Benson probably sees spending $25 million as spending $25 million. Would he want to spend $35 million on 2 useless big men just to keep a first round pick that he will likely have to pay the luxury tax on? Or would he rather spend $25 million on a player who brings so many positives and can help win a championship?
    Again, it's not just being out of the tax but also how much tax we pay. Tyson increases that amount by a lot for very little return.

    Also let me correct you on something else. It's not Benson paying $35m or whatever the number on Asik. Insurance covers that and is most likely already covering it. There is no Benson paying X amount for useless players VS 25m for Tyson.

    All the rest of what you typed is just noise and not focused on what the actual point is. Why would we do this trade *RIGHT NOW* instead of waiting until it was closer to Asik's date and they have a better idea of what's going to happen with him? It makes zero sense and would be stupid of Dell.

  7. #57
    I wonder what the Celtics will do with their $8.4m exception for Hayward.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...gordon-hayward

    The NBA has granted the Boston Celtics an $8.4 million disabled player exception for Gordon Hayward, ESPN has confirmed. The Celtics have until March 10 to utilize the exception, which was expected to be granted.

    Hayward suffered a dislocated left ankle and a fractured tibia in Boston's season opener and will be out for the season.

    With an open roster spot, the Celtics can sign, claim or trade for a player on the last year of their contract. The team must have a roster spot to use and the Celtics have one with 14 players under contract.
    They can sign, trade, or claim anyone whose salary falls within that $8.4m range. Who could possibly be had for that much?

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...s/players.html

    Not many guys worth having who are on the last year of their contract, a contract which pays $8.4 million or less.
    If you Jimmer it, they will come.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Again, it's not just being out of the tax but also how much tax we pay. Tyson increases that amount by a lot for very little return.

    Also let me correct you on something else. It's not Benson paying $35m or whatever the number on Asik. Insurance covers that and is most likely already covering it. There is no Benson paying X amount for useless players VS 25m for Tyson.

    All the rest of what you typed is just noise and not focused on what the actual point is. Why would we do this trade *RIGHT NOW* instead of waiting until it was closer to Asik's date and they have a better idea of what's going to happen with him? It makes zero sense and would be stupid of Dell.
    So actual reasons for making the trade is just noise? Man you been cherry picking my arguments this whole time. Dismissing valid arguments. You can't claim TC brings very little return and then call what he brings "noise" because it doesn't fit your invalid argument of "little return".

    Asik walking away does nothing for us but saves us irrelevant money because we will still have Ajinca on the team. We would still pay luxury tax for a first round pick who won't contribute next year. And it's not guaranteed that he will retire.

    You keep talking about we can sign this and that player with the $10M you save from Asik. Who? What players? We still have no cap space. We will still use the same exceptions. We will still have to sign a 3rd big because we do not have one. And if we want a good one, that means we can't use one of the exceptions on Rondo or Clark.

    So instead of using Asik Contract to solve a roster issue your argument is that it's brilliant for him to retire and it does nothing for us? Asik comes off the cap and we have to use an exception on another big and let Rondo and Clark walk? And how much would a decent backup big cost? $6 million? So your suggestion is to pay $11M and 2 roster spots for a decent big and Ajinca, lose Clark or Rondo than to pay $12M to Tyson Chandler and use exceptions to keep Clark and Rondo? You can't be serious. That first round pick better be something special. Because there really isn't much savings once you look at the big picture.

    Edit: and if you look at the bigs who will be Free agents next year, Tyson Chandler is better than them all except Jordan and maybe Kanter. Which we can afford neither anyhow. So again what exactly does Asik retirement do for us in the long run? In the grand scheme of things? How is it better than getting a Tyson Chandler?
    Last edited by HoustonPelicans; 10-30-2017 at 11:18 AM.

  9. #59
    Here, let me lay the argument out clearly for you.

    My stance is that Tyson Chandler isnt needed as a backup big *due to* his contract. How good he plays is irrelevant to me, like I said previously, he could play like prime Tyson and it doesn't matter. Having that much money tied into a backup center (which is what he would be for us) is a bad move because he is only going to get 12-15 minutes maybe 20 tops. This is also ignoring the fact that he doesn't fit our system at all and the entire NBA is moving away from traditional bigs. You simply don't need one to win, and you don't need that much money tied into a backup. Look at what the warriors are doing with their center position. Is Tyson Chandler in his 15 minutes a game going to really be worth the difference in cost than grabbing a guy like Dmo would or even what Ajinca would give in 15 minutes? I do not think so.

    My stance is that there is such a thing as a hard cap along with the luxury tax and that both matter. I would rather Asik's contract come off the books and attach the pick instead to maybe move Solomon Hill for a better piece. The only two options are *not* 1) Use the pick to trade Asik or 2) draft a player. There is a lot of flexibility that being able to trade a pick gives. I do not think it's smart at this time to use our only 1st round pick to trade a guy that could possibly be coming off the books for free in a few months.

    My stance is that it is better to wait and see what happens with Asik first. Maybe he won't be able to medically retirebut he is healthy enough to give us the backup center minutes we need anyway for a cheaper price than Chandler. Maybe he can't medically retire and we still have to trade him and give up a pick. Maybe he does medically retire and we can use the assets we would have used to trade him instead in other ways to benefit the team.

    My main point is, Why do this *now* instead of waiting to see with Asik? This team has far more options if Asik comes off the books and we still have our 1st. There is absolutely no rush in trying to trade him while it's still possible he medically retires.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Here, let me lay the argument out clearly for you.

    My stance is that Tyson Chandler isnt needed as a backup big *due to* his contract. How good he plays is irrelevant to me, like I said previously, he could play like prime Tyson and it doesn't matter. Having that much money tied into a backup center (which is what he would be for us) is a bad move because he is only going to get 12-15 minutes maybe 20 tops. This is also ignoring the fact that he doesn't fit our system at all and the entire NBA is moving away from traditional bigs. You simply don't need one to win, and you don't need that much money tied into a backup. Look at what the warriors are doing with their center position. Is Tyson Chandler in his 15 minutes a game going to really be worth the difference in cost than grabbing a guy like Dmo would or even what Ajinca would give in 15 minutes? I do not think so.

    My stance is that there is such a thing as a hard cap along with the luxury tax and that both matter. I would rather Asik's contract come off the books and attach the pick instead to maybe move Solomon Hill for a better piece. The only two options are *not* 1) Use the pick to trade Asik or 2) draft a player. There is a lot of flexibility that being able to trade a pick gives. I do not think it's smart at this time to use our only 1st round pick to trade a guy that could possibly be coming off the books for free in a few months.

    My stance is that it is better to wait and see what happens with Asik first. Maybe he won't be able to medically retirebut he is healthy enough to give us the backup center minutes we need anyway for a cheaper price than Chandler. Maybe he can't medically retire and we still have to trade him and give up a pick. Maybe he does medically retire and we can use the assets we would have used to trade him instead in other ways to benefit the team.

    My main point is, Why do this *now* instead of waiting to see with Asik? This team has far more options if Asik comes off the books and we still have our 1st. There is absolutely no rush in trying to trade him while it's still possible he medically retires.
    Wait did you just insert that Asik at $10.5M is a better value than Chandler at $12.5M? Are you just trying to be right at this point? Because there's no way that made sense to you. Asik cant give us 2 minutes at backup C even if healthy.

    You keep saying there's better options but can't seem to name any that makes sense. Attach a 1st to move Solomon Hill, a legit 3 and D SF, But not use a 1st round pick to move 2 useless bums? Like come on dude. What?

    What players does Asik coming off the books allow us to pick up that's going to be better than Tyson Chandler? Can you name a few of these amazing options?

    Why are you trying to get us to fit a modern NBA role when our advantage is our big men? Why not keep that advantage all game? Chandler isn't your traditional big, he's athletic, He runs the floor and he isn't looking for post ups. He's pretty much Clint Capela. We're not Golden State. We're New Orleans and we can have our own style, we don't have to copy the league. Hence going with 2 bigs when everyone else went small. Chess not checkers.

    I mean really it's never going to be a reasonable debate when you already said you would prefer Asik over Chandler in a backup role.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    Wait did you just insert that Asik at $10.5M is a better value than Chandler at $12.5M? Are you just trying to be right at this point? Because there's no way that made sense to you. Asik cant give us 2 minutes at backup C even if healthy.

    You keep saying there's better options but can't seem to name any that makes sense. Attach a 1st to move Solomon Hill, a legit 3 and D SF, But not use a 1st round pick to move 2 useless bums? Like come on dude. What?

    What players does Asik coming off the books allow us to pick up that's going to be better than Tyson Chandler? Can you name a few of these amazing options?

    Why are you trying to get us to fit a modern NBA role when our advantage is our big men? Why not keep that advantage all game? Chandler isn't your traditional big, he's athletic, He runs the floor and he isn't looking for post ups. He's pretty much Clint Capela. We're not Golden State. We're New Orleans and we can have our own style, we don't have to copy the league. Hence going with 2 bigs when everyone else went small. Chess not checkers.

    I mean really it's never going to be a reasonable debate when you already said you would prefer Asik over Chandler in a backup role.
    So you didn't read my post at all. Got it.

  12. #62
    ADfan23 tyler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    Wait did you just insert that Asik at $10.5M is a better value than Chandler at $12.5M? Are you just trying to be right at this point? Because there's no way that made sense to you. Asik cant give us 2 minutes at backup C even if healthy.

    You keep saying there's better options but can't seem to name any that makes sense. Attach a 1st to move Solomon Hill, a legit 3 and D SF, But not use a 1st round pick to move 2 useless bums? Like come on dude. What?

    What players does Asik coming off the books allow us to pick up that's going to be better than Tyson Chandler? Can you name a few of these amazing options?

    Why are you trying to get us to fit a modern NBA role when our advantage is our big men? Why not keep that advantage all game? Chandler isn't your traditional big, he's athletic, He runs the floor and he isn't looking for post ups. He's pretty much Clint Capela. We're not Golden State. We're New Orleans and we can have our own style, we don't have to copy the league. Hence going with 2 bigs when everyone else went small. Chess not checkers.

    I mean really it's never going to be a reasonable debate when you already said you would prefer Asik over Chandler in a backup role.
    12.5 is just to much for a guy who is gonna probably gonna give us 3pts and 3 rebounds
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrEtGIuCYAAUHds.jpg

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    So you didn't read my post at all. Got it.
    I did and responded to your points. You just don't have a valid argument. Or you would've listed those other options

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by tyler View Post
    12.5 is just to much for a guy who is gonna probably gonna give us 3pts and 3 rebounds
    He's averaging 9rebs in 24min. We're paying $15 million for 2 guys who give us 0pts 0rebs

    Edit: Also $12.5 million is the equivalent of paying $7 million under the old CBS which is what a backup Center is worth.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    I did and responded to your points. You just don't have a valid argument. Or you would've listed those other options
    Then I suggest reading it again, because I didn't say any of the things you accuse me of.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Then I suggest reading it again, because I didn't say any of the things you accuse me of.
    You didn't say you prefer Asik over Chandler if healthy because he's cheaper?
    Maybe he won't be able to medically retirebut he is healthy enough to give us the backup center minutes we need anyway for a cheaper price than Chandler.**
    You didn't say attaching a First to Solomon Hill is a viable option and better than attaching one to Asik?
    I would rather Asik's contract come off the books and attach the pick instead to maybe move Solomon Hill for a better piece
    You didn't say that it was better to wait on Asik for unknown options that you have yet to list?
    This team has far more options if Asik comes off the books and we still have our 1st.**
    I mean seriously you act like I'm putting words in your mouth.

  17. #67
    THINK Contributor redrum's Avatar
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    I would rather roll with Josh Smith, Diallo, and Ajinca than waste any assets and further our cap woes for Tyson Chandler.
    It's that the Hornets unashamedly quit so quickly in Game 4 after fans in New Orleans showed up this season with greater regularity than the team could have ever dreamed, shaming misinformed know-it-alls like me who kept telling you that local residents couldn't possibly invest their time and money into something as trivial as rooting for the local basketball team while still recovering from the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. - Mark Stien ESPN

  18. #68
    I would rather Chandler

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans View Post
    You didn't say you prefer Asik over Chandler if healthy because he's cheaper?


    You didn't say attaching a First to Solomon Hill is a viable option and better than attaching one to Asik?


    You didn't say that it was better to wait on Asik for unknown options that you have yet to list?


    I mean seriously you act like I'm putting words in your mouth.
    1. No, I said it's an option. One of many I listed with Asik.

    2a. Again, I said it was an option without any preference attached to the statement. Maybe we bundle it with expiring contracts like Cunningham and Miller and are able to get a decent player back, yet another option we don't have if we trade it to move a contract that might already come off our books for free. If Asik medically retires then it allows us to move other contracts with the pick instead. There is no world where anyone outside of AD and Cousins are untouchable on this team.

    3. No, Not for unknown options. I said very clearly in my post that it's better to wait and see if we can remove Asik for free because I don't think Chandler in 15 minutes a game is worth his contract plus giving up a 1st over what a player like DMo or Ajinca would give us in 15 minutes.


    The option is not Asik OR Chandler. The options are Chandler VS every other possible move we could make. I feel a minimum guy and/or even Ajinca is plenty fine enough for 15mpg without needing to commit 13m/yr to a backup center. Again it's not just about being under the luxury tax but there's also a hard cap to worry about as well. If the option is 13m for a backup center or use 3 exceptions on multiple positions I'd rather use the exceptions and go with Ajinca + a minimum center. There's a long list someone rattled off of free agent centers, including Hibbert and David Lee, I'd rather any of those options to committing a big contract to Chandler.
    Last edited by Mythrol; 10-30-2017 at 02:58 PM.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    1. No, I said it's an option. One of many I listed with Asik.

    2a. Again, I said it was an option without any preference attached to the statement. Maybe we bundle it with expiring contracts like Cunningham and Miller and are able to get a decent player back, yet another option we don't have if we trade it to move a contract that might already come off our books for free. If Asik medically retires then it allows us to move other contracts with the pick instead. There is no world where anyone outside of AD and Cousins are untouchable on this team.

    3. No, Not for unknown options. I said very clearly in my post that it's better to wait and see if we can remove Asik for free because I don't think Chandler in 15 minutes a game is worth his contract plus giving up a 1st over what a player like DMo or Ajinca would give us in 15 minutes.


    The option is not Asik OR Chandler. The options are Chandler VS every other possible move we could make. I feel a minimum guy and/or even Ajinca is plenty fine enough for 15mpg without needing to commit 13m/yr to a backup center. Again it's not just about being under the luxury tax but there's also a hard cap to worry about as well. If the option is 13m for a backup center or use 3 exceptions on multiple positions I'd rather use the exceptions and go with Ajinca + a minimum center. There's a long list someone rattled off of free agent centers, including Hibbert and David Lee, I'd rather any of those options to committing a big contract to Chandler.
    1. Why list an option if you dont think it's better or preferable to the one being discussed?

    2. Again why list an option if you dont think it's better or preferable to the one being discussed? At what point does continuity matter? Are we going to keep trading everyone and bringing in a new team every year? So the guys can meet up a month before training camp to try to build that GSW chemistry? It's becoming a ritual.

    3. Did you seriously just write Dmo or Ajinca can give us the same 15 minutes as Chandler? You are so wrong. I can promise you those 15 minutes would be vastly different.

    What are these options? Who should we be targeting? A SF? What's a better use of the money when backup big is the only glaring hole on the roster? And again Chandler does not prevent us from using the exceptions to bring the same team back.

    Edit: Take away Ajinca contract from Chandler and you're paying $7.5M for Chandler. Did you know that Golden State is paying Livingston $8M/yr to play 15mpg? Why would they do that?
    Last edited by HoustonPelicans; 10-30-2017 at 03:23 PM.

  21. #71
    Yet again, you aren't actually reading what I'm saying. This conversation is getting nowhere. I'm out.
    Last edited by Mythrol; 10-30-2017 at 03:24 PM.

  22. #72
    What's going on with Justice Windslow? He seems like a good buy-low target, even if he's more of a wing than a big.
    Quote Originally Posted by zakzak View Post
    that dumb Gentry killing Asik morale seriously man he is been good when you compare last season then suddenly he sits whole damn first half barely gets minutes what an idiot we need muscle wee need rebound he took of asik jones,ajinca they got no place on this team play Diallo at least he is decent.
    .......if healthy

    @Jabberwalker

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwalker View Post
    What's going on with Justice Windslow? He seems like a good buy-low target, even if he's more of a wing than a big.
    Good question. Wasn't he was supposed to be a breakout candidate? What happened to that guy?

  24. #74
    I'm literally repeating what you're saying before even rebutting. I'm just not allowing you to move the goal post like you have tried to do every single post.

    I agree this conversation stopped going anywhere when you said you would prefer Asik over Chandler because he's cheaper. And then went on to say guys like David Lee, Ajinca, Dmo, and Hibbert would give you the same 15 minutes as Chandler and that you would actually RATHER those guys over paying Chandler a contract that literally does not cripple us going forward. But of course you didn't say these things I'm just putting words in your mouth...

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    Good question. Wasn't he was supposed to be a breakout candidate? What happened to that guy?
    He falls under Bill Simmons' Fantasy Kryptonite for me. He always puts up numbers besides scoring so I feel he gets overlooked. After the Heat loaded up the wings last year and him missing the season with injury he's barely in the rotation but he's still putting up numbers for steals rebounds and assists for his position and playing time. I remember the talk was all about how his defense was decent as a rookie (which is unheard of) and was expected to be what we thought MKG was going to be. I would love that on this team and with Miami's salary situation they may not be looking at him as a long-term piece anymore. I'd be willing to give up quite a bit to get him.

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