Why bother? At a certain point you need to just accept you're talking to someone who is either a bad faith troll or a genuine imbecile and move on; don't give him the time.Originally Posted by Funcrusher
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Why bother? At a certain point you need to just accept you're talking to someone who is either a bad faith troll or a genuine imbecile and move on; don't give him the time.
Basketball.
People super hurt in this thread. Its okay, the same people will be saying he is overrated after he leaves. Fandom provides a bias that makea objectivity impossible
@mcnamara247
I will say again that my stance on Zion is that he has some generational talents. Has potential to be a top 5 player in this league and is far ahead of say Giannis at 20, and several others. But he is a negative on the defensive end - only debate is how big a negative. He is a disappointment on the defensive glass, and his playmaking shows signs of being good, but its just flashes right now. I need more to put him that high
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I’m fine with Zion’s current rate of development, personally. But he cancelled on a single instance to join Ingram and whatever in Phoenix and his parents are the reason? He’s not training hard? Truth is there’s precious little of Zion ever released or seen.
And the silliness about Zion being too pampered. Struggle isn’t strength. Studies consistently show that stress and what doesn’t kill you make you weaker, kills you sooner. Best warriors who actually kill people through history were pampered and privileged. You are either built to win or you fight and take it. Sometimes both. But Zion? So many proclamations about the future. Too much is left undecided. And even if you think this or that, where’s the fun gone? People need to relax a bit and enjoy the ride.
He had some business obligations in Cali. Would I have liked to see him at the Finals game? Yes. Do I think him cancelling is some big sign that we need to read into? I dont.
I want to see what kind of shape he shows up to camp in - that will tell me a lot. He came to Summer League overweight. He came back to the bubble overweight. Came into this season in so-so shape. There is zero excuse this year. He wants to win - well, stop worrying about what the FO is doing and control the one thing you can control. Bust your butt this offseason, and come in with the goal of being the best version of yourself. If you do that and put the team on your back and they still cant win, then whine all you want and demand out. But lets see you be in great shape from day 1 and be a great player on both sides of the court first
I agree 100% with this second paragraph.
Nah fam, I slept ok last night. Not super hurt lol. More just annoyed that your online persona on this forum is a giant ************ who pretends he knows basketball but literally just spits out Stephen A. Smith's c-grade takes.
This is called an Ad Hominem. Its a fallacy that occurs when you attack the person instead of the argument. Common tactic amongst children. I would rather debate the facts than resort to these lazy tactics, but kids will be kids
I already have him on mute, and I haven't responded to him in forever. Ultimately, I don't take it too serious. I see it as "entertainment" (that I can only stomach once in a blue moon)
aye, mac, it's ok man. You can call it an Ad Hominem or whatever you like, but it's unfortunately the truth. Particularly when I've already tackled your arguments in good faith several times with thorough logic and empirical evidence, and your response to them have predictably been "well, that's just your opinion" If I resort to these "tactics," I'm just tired of the same old emperor's new clothes delivery you give. And to argue that you of all people would rather debate the "facts" is ridiculous. Get off your high horse.
Sorry - where did you point out what other parts of the game Zion does at an above average level? As I have said, there have been numerous studies showing that scoring is the most easily replaceable stat in basketball. Not saying it is the least valuable, but it is up there - especially scoring in the first 40 minutes. To be a top tier player, you have to have other areas where you can dominate and/or you have to be an elite finisher. Admittedly, Zion shoots a high percentage on the limited attempts late in games. Also turns the ball over at a high rate in those moments too.
Maybe as soon as this upcoming season he can be a great finisher. Maybe he takes a leap and starts getting defensive boards, and maybe his assists go up and his turnovers go down as his handle gets tighter and space gives him better passing lanes. Maybe that happens - but to assume it happens or think it has already been proven out is just incorrect. He scores at a really efficient clip, mostly in the first 40 minutes. That is the truth of who he has been. Nobody is saying that cant evolve, but calling people trolls who objectively point out the truth of what has been so far is immature
You're (half) right. I intensely disagree with your logic and how you arrived at that logic, but I took things too far. The only one who comes out looking like a ************ here is me. I gotta rein it in sometimes
Last edited by Funcrusher; 07-21-2021 at 09:42 AM.
I appreciate the self reflection and acknowledgement. If you want to have a mature debate, I am cool having it. But just know, that people can disagree. It is possible, without one person being a troll and the other being certifiably correct. These are opinions, not facts. There is no way to get to 'Fact' when you are debating things like 'Top 10 player'
I don't think anyone has ever said CP was overrated, or Jrue, or Tyson, or David West, etc. The only person we've ever called overrated was AD, and that's because we realized he was overrated while he was here. It's not his skill set that causes him to be overrated, it's his ability to stay on the floor. That's the most important skill there is, and AD couldn't do it. People thought it would be different once he went to a contender, and clearly it is not.
We have a fairly smart fanbase by NBA standards. We just so happened to have the one athlete in sports history that refused to acknowledge us with so much as a Thank You and flicked us off on the way out, so of course we are bitter. That doesn't mean we don't understand the game.
The jury is still out, obviously, on Zion's ability to stay healthy; but last year was encouraging.
On the contrary, I was sad when Jrue left precisely because I thought he was so awesome, and I've repeatedly argued that Chris Paul is top 3 all time at his position and top 20 all time overall. No sour grapes or negative judgement to either guy.
The idea that you can predict how the fanbase will react to any player leaving based on the response to ADs exit is absurd. In fact, when the initial trade stuff came out, I remember most of the people on this board saying something along the lines of ''well, can't really blame him; franchise failed him''. The negatively only grew as AD continued behaving more and more like a tool about it - the That's All Folks shirt (that he then claimed was chosen by a stylist), him and Rich Paul crying to the league when the team wanted to sit him, him naming his 'acceptable destinations', the lack of an exit message, et cetera.
If Zion plays 7 years in New Orleans and doesn't even ever get consecutive playoff runs and then decides to leave, I don't think anyone would blame him unless he handled it like a jerk.
Also can we just wait on this Zion argument for like one more year? We basically just watched his rookie season in which he averaged 27-7-4 on 61% shooting. It's not necessary to fight about it yet. We need to just enjoy the development. He's not even close to a finished product.
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the most sane post yet
He's a historically great scorer already, he improved as a playmaker and FT shooter compared to his rookie year (short as it was) and despite all of the complaining, his defense by the end of the year had improved as well. Not saying he's a good defensive player yet, by any means, but the hyperbolic claims of him being ''one of the worst defenders in the NBA'' that we heard from many people are just that: hyperbole. He's not even the worst defender in the New Orleans Pelicans starting lineup for Christ's sake.
Plus, as I've mentioned before: nobody gives Damian Lillard the same shtick despite him being a notably worse defender. I get the concerns about two way play, I really do, and I hope that Zion will improve on that end as well, but this idea that you need to be a defensive stalwart to reach the upper echelons of NBA impact and value is just not an idea that applies to reality. Hell, you can be a top 8 sort of NBA player with only mediocre defense: Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, and Stephen Curry all say hello.
Zion's 21st birthday was two weeks ago. He's a very young guy still. The defense needs to improve, sure, no real problem with saying that. But acting like it's a severe problem that he's not a polished and finished product 85 games into his career is a joke. Zion just had a better age 20 season than Giannis did: remind me where Giannis ended up?
What is your ideal reasonable starting lineup going into next season?
My reasonable one would be:
PG- Lowry
SG- NAW
SF- BI
PF- Zion
C- Adams
6th- Lauri Markkanen
I would trade 10 to the Knicks for 19 and 21 and then move 21, 35, and Bledsoe for Lowry. Then sign and trade Lonzo for Lauri and some change.
I think with this roster you can compete for a solid playoff spot and potentially a round 1 win while also holding onto your assets for the eventual big fish. Lauri and Jax allow you to preserve Adams, and you retain Adams contract in case you have to match salaries this season.
This!!!
Having "Generational Talent" is one thing (and he has it); but to translate that talent into becoming a "Generational Player, is a whole other animal (and it's mostly on him to make the nexus).
Not sure 21 +35 let's you dump Bled and get Lowry, but I like where your head is at. My dream offseason get is still Brogdon, if there is any chance. Absent that, I would actually be ok coming back with Ball + NAW in the starting backcourt, though perhaps the Lonzo ship has sailed, on both sides. I'm not a big fan of emptying the war chest for Lillard. He's an incredible scorer and late game finisher, but he's a terrible defender, on the wrong side of 30 and would cost too much. I'd also be ok taking Davion Mitchell at 10. I think he can play right away and is the kind of defender and knife-fighter we've lacked at the point since CP3 left town. I could easily see him becoming Lowry-like in a few years...
I have legitimately no interest in Lauri Markkanen at all, and the fact that I briefly considered it back in like, January, is a matter of minor shame. He really just isn't very good overall as a basketball player.
I'd be much more interested in checking out Atlanta's embarrassment of riches. There were rumours that they could be looking to move off one or two names a while ago - they have like 5 guys due for extension at the end of the year and could be in for some huge tax money if they keep them all. Could we pry away Kevin Huerter? Bogdan? Either guy at reasonable cost would be a million miles more desirable than Lauri imo.
Personally not interested in adding more guards who can't really do much off the dribble unless they are truly elite shooters and aren't defensive liabilities, so Huerter is likely out for me. I like Shamit's idea of Utah's Bogdanovic. I think we need a 4 that can really rip it from 3, and he obviously fills that need. I'd be fine with either Bogdanovic really, especially paired with Lowry (or Conley or another PG who can probe)
Huerter isn't a defensive liability. He's not a stopper, don't get me wrong, but he's pretty clearly grown into a solid enough team defender. I also think he's a better defender than his 3pt% would imply from this year: he was 38% or better both of his first two years on high volume, and even this year he wasn't bad, just not fantastic (36.5% ish, I think?).
I do agree that the Bogdanovic's would be better but they're also probably much more expensive to acquire, and Huerter is only 22 so there's probably still growth there tbh. Even this past year, while his shooting took a small dip, he improved considerably as a passer and playmaker.
Don't get me wrong, I like Huerter. I wanted him at the deadline in a Lonzo deal. I'd be happy with him as your 6th-7th man. He's not the guy I'm going after though. More like a fall back option if you miss out on starting caliber players.
I think it's important to note that I think NAW is locked in as your starting 2 this year, which is why I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled about prioritizing Huerter.
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