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There's no argument yet. He's not quite as good as Jordan, but he is the most physically dominating player since Wilt. Still, Jordan was better overall, especially more lethal as a scorer from the perimeter and post. But Lebron could arguably be number two right now. The ring argument is important in basketball compared to other sports since one player can completely dominate on the floor. Lebron needed a ring to validate himself as one of the best ever.Originally Posted by Eman5805
Emeka Okafor - Joe Smith - Carmelo Anthony - Manu Ginobili - Jason Williams
Al Jefferson - James Posey - Aaron McKie - Shaun Livingston
See I disagree comepletely and i totaqlly get your "grabage players have 2 rings" mantra and agree with that. When you talk about the All time greats though, it's HUGE. All the top 10 players had great Size, strength, speed, skill, power etc but what's really going to get him over the top is how many times he's a champion. Why? I think to me it proves determination when you're playing against the best. How many times he's willed victory against players on or near his tier when all the cards are down. I dunno, i just disagree on the subject. I dont think it matters for D Fish or Horry because they're not in the conversation to begin with.
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I think #2 overall right now is a huge stretch.
So does LBJ's second ring really change your opinion on his standing among the greatest ever? In other words, was there someone you feel that had a better legacy before but now with his second ring LBJ passes him up.
There are the "obvious" players you know shouldn't be in the conversation as GOAT that have multiple rings.
MJ set the standard as a champion. So I don't think it's overrated at all.
Not if you look at it statistically. He and MJ separate themselves pretty well in the regular season and postseason advanced stats. He's won 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVP. Winning a MVP and Finals MVP in the same year is ridiculously hard to do, which is only done by the all-time greats and he's done it in back to back years only matching Russell and MJ. That's all-time great right there. He's not as good as MJ, but I can't find another player who can claim he's definitely better than Lebron. He only has 2 rings, but he didn't play with an all-time great center like Magic or Kobe and really carried DWade and Bosh this postseason to get the ring. Statistically, he's head and shoulders ahead of every modern player outside of MJ.
I think having more than one ring helps his legacy, but it doesn't change that he's the 2nd best modern player statistically behind MJ. But winning game 7 the way he did does add alot to his legacy.
He's got a long way to go in terms of overall points etc. it's a marathon not a sprint. He's certainly outpacing a lot of guys in front of him but I'll reiterate, calling him number 2 now is a stretch.
I don't mean overall points, etc. I'm talking about advanced stats where he and MJ separate themselves in the modern era (Mikan is up there as well but he played in a different era). But he's also done things that other all-time greats haven't done and he impacts the game in every way. Do you think he's surpassed Bird as the best SF of all-time? I think he already has.
Yeah I do. Birds career was cut short though. I'm not going to rely on advanced stats to make the determination for me though. You've got to have the rings, you've got to have the all time benchmarks IMHO.
This and the memory of what Lebron did to Cleveland (I will never forgive him for that BS) Is why I boycott watching any heat games, hence I did not watch the finals. But your statement sizes up what has ruined the NBA for a lot of fans. There is no true even playing field and only a few teams win, just like in baseball. Sucks.
Last edited by Bayou Pelican; 06-21-2013 at 09:28 AM.
I forgot the PAcers when i was typing that (it was 3am, gimmie a break lol). But yeah, but the PAcers are a threat but they need just more than a point. They will need a bench, resign David, pay George, trade Granger, while the Heat just sit back and bring serviceable role players in at a discounted price.
When you think about it, the Heat will re-tool easily and might even be better, it will then be the Heat and the field.
- At the end of the day, both Lebron and Wade went for 25+ no matter how they did it, and to say the role players for the Heat weren't really a factor is crazy. Bosh scored ZERO points and the Heat were still able to hang and win.
- Yes, THE David Stern, I know what he did. He made the sport "superstar-ish" when everyone was tired of the "fair" 70s, you know, the era where there was no repeat champ. I'll give him that, but those same rules who installed are biting the league in the rear right now. It's time for a change. And David Stern doesn't have the cleanest track record in the NBA so I don't know if we are talking about the same David. The "bodies" remark, the "rigged" NBA draft, just to name a few.
- Yes, the ring is becoming overrated in my eyes. When you run to 2 other superstars in order to get a ring (when it's going to be a GIVEN), how exciting is winning a ring becoming. Heck, I guessed this year it was going to be the Heat vs Thunder again and it almost played out that way if the Thunder didn't lose WB. And yes, the Heat had hard times against the Pacers and Spurs, but it's a 7 game series, sooner or later the better team will win. If this new era will consist of superstars teaming up then to be honest, I'll probably won't watch the NBA for a long time.
I LOVE our team, I LOVE basketball, I LOVE the sport, but when you have the best players running to big markets in hopes of winning a ring, our chances of getting one is almost 0. I'll always root for this team, but if I feel the product of basketball is becoming boring then I don't know.
Seriously, ask yourself, who will win the ring next year, who will be in the finals next year? If you are able to answer those questions year after year then something is seriously wrong.
The last team I feel to actually "win" a ring was the 2011 Mavs. NO ONE picked them to go all the way. Everyone had the Spurs or Thunder or Lakers. Then when it came to the Heat, everyone had the Heat as favorites, not just to win, but complete favorites. Ever since, it's been the Heat's ring to lose and I predict it will be so for a while.
Last edited by smittywerb; 06-21-2013 at 09:42 AM.
Exactly! With the superteams forming, I'm more focused on stats and what a player can do now instead of rings. Back in the day, when you had teams that could almost take anyone else out, then yeah a ring meant something to me. But now, with a hadnful of teams who are really competing for the title, then no, it doesn't awe me as much.
This new era of superstars won't last long with the new luxury taxes. Teams can't afford it to pay 3 superstars. Two will be the limit.
Its always been a handful of teams able to compete for 30+ years. Whatever teams has the superstars will be able to compete.
Who said they weren't a factor? Please humor me.
Oh you're one of the ones that believe drafts are rigged. Cool.- Yes, THE David Stern, I know what he did. He made the sport "superstar-ish" when everyone was tired of the "fair" 70s, you know, the era where there was no repeat champ. I'll give him that, but those same rules who installed are biting the league in the rear right now. It's time for a change. And David Stern doesn't have the cleanest track record in the NBA so I don't know if we are talking about the same David. The "bodies" remark, the "rigged" NBA draft, just to name a few.
We'll agree to disagree on the rings thing?
I don't think you'll see as many superstars teaming up as you think. The new CBA makes it near impossible to leave a team before the 9 year mark for a superstar without them losing a ton of cash in the process. The penalties for having too much cap will be extremely harsh. Just don't see it happening. In fact, I think this Heat team breaks up in a year or two due to Wade's fading Altheticism and Bosh just fading.
The Thunder weren't favorites in 2011. The only favorites that season were the Lakers, Celtics, and Heat. You're off by a year. The Spurs were a great regular season team that season, but no one had them making a deep run. Lakers were prohibitive favorites in the West that season.
And since the 1980s, its been very easy to pick the favorites.
He bumped himself out of the top 20 into the top 15. My only knock against Lebron is his decision to play along 2 other superstars. I mean, if you're playing with 2 other superstars it's almost a given you will win at least 1 ring. When he joined the Heat, the question was no longer when he will get his ring, it turned into how many.
I'm sorry, I just respect players like Dr. J, MJ, Magic, Kareem, Bird (yes, I know he played on one of the most put together teams ever, but you can't blame him for having a great organization who turned 2 good players and a draft pick into Bird and McHale), and others for not teaming up with a superteam to get a ring. Yeah maybe they had a core or sidekic (like Oscar-Kareem, Dr. J-Malone, MJ-Pipp-Rodman, Magic-Kareem-Worthy) but it wasn't necessarily a full-fledged deep team from top to bottom stuffed with talent.
I don't think Lebron made wrong decision for his career, but for his legacy, I don't know.
Stern has way more to lose than gain by rigging a draft lottery. He's not that stupid. If he did, why not put Duncan in Boston when they had two top 5 picks? Why not put Durant or Oden in Boston when they had the worst record in the league that season?
The final four teams this past season were in San Antonio, Memphis, Indianapolis, and Miami. None of these are major markets. Good organizations will always find ways to win. No excuses.
Like I said in a previous post, it saved the NBA when it was dying but it's not killing it and the NBA is dying once again. Heck, count how many teams have "Re-branded" or changed cities in the past 10 years. Now compare that to the NHL, NFL, and even the MLB, and you will see the problem.
I never said it was impossible, but you can bet that the field isn't even. And that "good organization" remark isn't always true. Heck, I wish we could form our own Big 3, I wish we could overpay for players and don't have to worry about the consequences, I wish we could do a lot more things that won't happen.
Those Lakers and Celtics teams were way deeper than the Heat. No debate about it. They had 3 hall of famers each with very good talent around them.
Doesn't matter how a team was formed. Lebron and Wade joined up to take on the Celtics who already had their big 3 formed with KG, Pierce, and Allen plus a very good PG in Rondo.
Wade and Bosh weren't superstars this past season. Bosh was useless in the Finals and Wade was a shell of himself. Lebron pretty much had to carry the load like he did in Cleveland where he took average teammates to 60+ win seasons.
And his legacy will be a top 5 player anyway especially winning a regular season MVP and a Finals MVP in back to back seasons. Only Russell and MJ accomplished that.
No idea why people on this board adore the spurs so much. I may be the only one to remember how they kicked us out of the playoffs game 7 in new orleans, meh. I watched the game and was quite happy with the result, it was a nice game all in all, the heat didn't blunder when they had to take it away (see duncan and ginobili).
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