DraftExpress: Situational Statistics: the 2013 Point Guard Crop

[PELICANSFAN]

This is the only thing that bothers me. Because I was saying his NBA comp was Terrell Brandon when draft sites said TJ Ford.

The "no chance the Pelicans would take him" comes from what Dell has said numerous times he wants. Burke doesn't fit that profile.

What I am actually trying to do is prevent fans from killing whoever we pick at 6 when Burke is still on the board. That kid doesn't deserve that. The second we pick someone else, all the Burke convo should stop and that kid should become the only one from this draft we talk about.

And if we do pick Burke, I don't want people to have unrealistic expectations. Not fair to the kid, at all.

That will never happen no matter who we pick (Burke or another player). Many prefer other players. If we draft him, many will talk about who we passed on or compare him to MCW and/or CJ. If we pass on him, the Burke fans will complain. It is the nature of the beast.

[PELICANSFAN]

Okay, I forgot. You talk to Gerry V more than I do.

By the way, Gerry V will be on the podcast tonight. Hope you guys enjoy! Should be up around 9 or 10.

Where did Gerry ever say that was how the Pelicans felt about Burke? I respect that he has his opinions about Burke and his comparisons to Paul. However, I do not assume his opinions are those of the Pelicans management.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Where did Gerry ever say that was how the Pelicans felt about Burke? I respect that he has his opinions about Burke and his comparisons to Paul. However, I do not assume his opinions are those of the Pelicans management.

Gerry V is smart, unlike others (me included). The reason he has these relationships is because he can talk to these guys off the record for an hour, they tell him stuff but he never says "Source tells me X" or "Dell says Y"

He just keeps it to himself and then states his thoughts and beliefs based on these conversations. Its why he has kept all those relationships for all these years.

[da ThRONe]

Davis was a freak and a complete prospect. If I ever did mention work ethic, it was the 30th thing on the list, if I mentioned it at all.

My problem with the whole "He has great work ethic" thing is that when you say that, you are essentially saying that others don't have it by ommission. Here is the form of the argument:

Burke is good + great work ethic = He can be great

So, then every player that was ever good and didn't become great must have had a poor work ethic by default, right? It's simple math and logic.

I just don't buy that. And I honestly don't think we have any clue about the work ethics of Len ( a former gymnist, so I would argue it is probably great), Noel, McLemore, etc.

There is just such an obsession with Burke that every good thing about him is sought out and therefore "publicized". Honestly, how many tried to seek out Len's work ethic and what his coaches had to say? Not fans on a blog, coaches or media members that went to all the practices?

That is where I see the lack of objectivity and the bias. You can tell me everything ever said about Burke and call him #1 on your board, but did you do the same amount of research and digging with Len or Porter, etc? In a moment of honesty, I think you say no. And that is where I believe the lack of objectivity lies.

1st dealing with Davis he was considered a once a decade type prospect, but he is far far from a complete player even a year later. He still needs to gain weight, get stronger, become a better post defender, develop a post game, put the ball on the floor much better, gain more consistency on his jumper, added 3pt range, show consistent effort, work on his perimeter defense, etc. So saying he was a complete player leaving college is not a very objective opinion.

Now on to my following of the prospects. I have definitely followed Burkes career way more than any other player. Which may be relevant to the discussion if I was denying his flaws. I realize he has some flaws to his game. However I think those flaws are few and at worse case salvageable.

I've given far too much of my free time watching game vids, highlights, pre-draft vids, and reading scouting reports on most of the prospects. If I was GM I would make moves to get a late 1st to draft Allen Crabbe. I would love to have Steven Adams many of the things that jumped out at me about Andre Drummond I see with Adams I like Adams better than Len.

[MichaelMcNamara]

That will never happen no matter who we pick (Burke or another player). Many prefer other players. If we draft him, many will talk about who we passed on or compare him to MCW and/or CJ. If we pass on him, the Burke fans will complain. It is the nature of the beast.

You are probably right, but it doesn't mean I can't try to help that young man out using any platform I have at my disposal. That's all I want - whoever we pick at 6 to come in with realistic expectations and fans to have an open mind and objectivity. I gotta try.

[da ThRONe]

Gerry V is smart, unlike others (me included). The reason he has these relationships is because he can talk to these guys off the record for an hour, they tell him stuff but he never says "Source tells me X" or "Dell says Y"

He just keeps it to himself and then states his thoughts and beliefs based on these conversations. Its why he has kept all those relationships for all these years.

Value his opinion yet I don't have to agree with all of it all the time. Human nature. I don't want to discredit him, but I watch Paul entire career and he didn't start playing high level defense until after his 1st Olympics team.

[MichaelMcNamara]

1st dealing with Davis he was considered a once a decade type prospect, but he is far far from a complete player even a year later. He still needs to gain weight, get stronger, become a better post defender, develop a post game, put the ball on the floor much better, gain more consistency on his jumper, added 3pt range, show consistent effort, work on his perimeter defense, etc. So saying he was a complete player leaving college is not a very objective opinion.

Now on to my following of the prospects. I have definitely followed Burkes career way more than any other player. Which may be relevant to the discussion if I was denying his flaws. I realize he has some flaws to his game. However I think those flaws are few and at worse case salvageable.

I've given far too much of my free time watching game vids, highlights, pre-draft vids, and reading scouting reports on most of the prospects. If I was GM I would make moves to get a late 1st to draft Allen Crabbe. I would love to have Steven Adams many of the things that jumped out at me about Andre Drummond I see with Adams I like Adams better than Len.

I agree with you on Crabbe, but not Adams.

But more than anything, I respect you saying you followed Burke's career more than any other. While I don't often agree with you, I respect that you never seem to lie just to win an argument. That is rare. Thank you.

[da ThRONe]

You have made it crystal clear from the beginning that you were not on the Burke bandwagon and that there was no chance the Pelicans would take him. It is also pretty clear that a majority of Pelicans fans would be happy with the selection of Burke. I don't understand why you try so hard to convince those that like him that they are all wrong. It will eventually all play out in the future.

I'm ok with him talking Burke down it's his opinion. My problem is when he tries to address something that I or somebody else didn't say to make his point. Or worse making conflicting statements for one prospect that doesn't apply to others.

[Eman5805]

I've seen Burke make some big impact defensive plays. It's enough to build on, I think.

[da ThRONe]

I agree with you on Crabbe, but not Adams.

But more than anything, I respect you saying you followed Burke's career more than any other. While I don't often agree with you, I respect that you never seem to lie just to win an argument. That is rare. Thank you.

It's wasn't just Adams combine workout either. He may not get great results but his offensives and defensives based look BIG time to me. The way he defends the pick and roll is outstanding for a big.

Yeah the last time I've followed a college player career this much was Chris Paul.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I've seen Burke make some big impact defensive plays. It's enough to build on, I think.

If you are talking about him getting to above average level, I agree. But Dell and Monty seem to want a dog at the point of attack. A defender that makes the primary ball handler give the rock up to someone else to initiate offense.

Now, I think Gordon came close to fitting that profile 2,3 years ago and might again. Iggy could fit that profile. So, if those guys are on the roster, Burke is fine. Put Iggy on Parker while Burke sticks to Green. Done. That is the one way I can see Burke being on this team and Dell and Monty being happy.

[Eman5805]

If that's who he wants then we probably aren't looking for that in the draft.

Sounds like Bledsoe or Avery Bradley.

[MichaelMcNamara]

If that's who he wants then we probably aren't looking for that in the draft.

Sounds like Bledsoe or Avery Bradley.

Oladipo has that potential, but heard his turnover proneness (is that a word) really scares us. Like I said - Iggy. He fits. He can be the Shawn Marion of this team. Put him on the other teams primary ball handler, hide Burke a bit on that end until he becomes an above avg defender 3,4 years down the road.

[da ThRONe]

If that's who he wants then we probably aren't looking for that in the draft.

Sounds like Bledsoe or Avery Bradley.

Yeah those kind of guys are rare and never have the energy to have the same effect on offensive end. I think having a cookie cutter idea of how to build a team is recipe for failure.

[aas3452]

To be fair, they said they like his ability to set up the offense quicker. That is all, and that is true. Meanwhile, there is one local guy who has been trying to tell people what the Pelicans really think of Burke, but when he does it, people say he is wrong and get defensive. That person talks to the decision makers more than everyone else in the media combined, but people kind of blew him off on here when he posted a few days ago.

Who is the local guy you are refering to?

[Topdawg26]

As much as I would love to get CJ. All indications seem like that are zeroed in on Burke, MCW, and Len for the sixth pick. Personally, I think they want Burke the most.

[DefensiveMind]

Yeah those kind of guys are rare and never have the energy to have the same effect on offensive end. I think having a cookie cutter idea of how to build a team is recipe for failure.

Its not about having a cookie cutter approach. Its about matching skills and abilities to your philosophy. If you want a bulldog at the point of attack.. are you willing to sacrifice that for a talent like Trey Burke. I think no.. he's not special..in the Chris Paul, Steve Nash vein...and history has shown us you can get a Mark Price, Terrell Brandon, Jameer Nelson type without using a lottery pick. Some of you seem to think Trey Burke is worth reworking your entire philosophy...some don't. It's all good. We all love the Pels and whoever we draft we will wish nothing but the best for.

[PELICANSFAN]

Its not about having a cookie cutter approach. Its about matching skills and abilities to your philosophy. If you want a bulldog at the point of attack.. are you willing to sacrifice that for a talent like Trey Burke. I think no.. he's not special..in the Chris Paul, Steve Nash vein...and history has shown us you can get a Mark Price, Terrell Brandon, Jameer Nelson type without using a lottery pick. Some of you seem to think Trey Burke is worth reworking your entire philosophy...some don't. It's all good. We all love the Pels and whoever we draft we will wish nothing but the best for.

How would it be reworking the philosophy? No one here knows what the team's philosophy is with its PG. It is obvious that a PG who plays P&R is important (what Burke does well). It is an assumption that the PG should be a bulldog at the point of attack. It also has been rumored that Demps likes Jennings and has tried to get him in the past. If that is the case, does he fit that philosophy?

[MichaelMcNamara]

How would it be reworking the philosophy? No one here knows what the team's philosophy is with its PG. It is obvious that a PG who plays P&R is important (what Burke does well). It is an assumption that the PG should be a bulldog at the point of attack. It also has been rumored that Demps likes Jennings and has tried to get him in the past. If that is the case, does he fit that philosophy?

Actually, he does. We have had Bucks writers on podcast several times and they said he loves to pick up from 3/4 court and Bucks were at their best when Skiles let him do that. New coach didn't let him do that as much.

People talk a lot about Jennings offense and its flaws, but my belief is that Dell has inquired about him in the past because of what he saw Jennings do when Skiles let him pressure 70 feet out.

[DefensiveMind]

How would it be reworking the philosophy? No one here knows what the team's philosophy is with its PG. It is obvious that a PG who plays P&R is important (what Burke does well). It is an assumption that the PG should be a bulldog at the point of attack. It also has been rumored that Demps likes Jennings and has tried to get him in the past. If that is the case, does he fit that philosophy?

I definitely qualified that statement. "IF you want a bulldog at the point of attack.."

[da ThRONe]

Its not about having a cookie cutter approach. Its about matching skills and abilities to your philosophy. If you want a bulldog at the point of attack.. are you willing to sacrifice that for a talent like Trey Burke. I think no.. he's not special..in the Chris Paul, Steve Nash vein...and history has shown us you can get a Mark Price, Terrell Brandon, Jameer Nelson type without using a lottery pick. Some of you seem to think Trey Burke is worth reworking your entire philosophy...some don't. It's all good. We all love the Pels and whoever we draft we will wish nothing but the best for.

Seriously who in their right minds thought Nash was a HOF top 10 at his position leaving Santa Clara? Hindsight is truly 20/20.

[DefensiveMind]

Seriously who in their right minds thought Nash was a HOF top 10 at his position leaving Santa Clara? Hindsight is truly 20/20.

That's not the point. He was drafted 16th out of SANTA CLARA. Clearly he was talented. WCC PGs don't drafted in the 1st rd unless they are talented... but that's not the point. The point is he was passed on TWICE and teams only took the chance on him when the risk was mitigated by the potential reward. Little PGs will never get the benefit of the doubt.. trying to be the GM who tries to get cute and be the one who can see the pretty girl without her glasses for lack of a better analogy, will just get you fired.

[Spaniard]

Its not about having a cookie cutter approach. Its about matching skills and abilities to your philosophy. If you want a bulldog at the point of attack.. are you willing to sacrifice that for a talent like Trey Burke. I think no.. he's not special..in the Chris Paul, Steve Nash vein...and history has shown us you can get a Mark Price, Terrell Brandon, Jameer Nelson type without using a lottery pick. Some of you seem to think Trey Burke is worth reworking your entire philosophy...some don't. It's all good. We all love the Pels and whoever we draft we will wish nothing but the best for.

Terrell Brandon was a lottery pick.

And it's really confusing to see Michael continually bringing him up(though I think he's using the comparison to show that he likes Trey). Terrell was considered one of the best PG's in the NBA, he made a couple of all-star games, and he was smaller than Trey Burke is. Unfortunately injuries ended his career. But if that's who Trey Burke is, holy hell don't we want to take him? What else are we asking for?

[Pelicans78]

People act like Terrell Brandon was a scrubb. He was a very good, All-Star caliber PG in his career.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Who acts like Brandon was a scrub? Very good player. He was an All Star but that PG position wasn't as stacked back then. Wouldnt be a year in, year out AS today IMO, but maybe once or twice.