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Thread: General Offseason News

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    You situation involves us shifting the very same high end roleplayer talent that you propose drafting (Trey and Herb) to avoid the cap hell. So you end up with either a team with very top end roster construction where everyone outside of your top 3 is on the minimum or a rookie deal because you can't afford more, or you bite the tax bullet.

    If you bite the tax bullet, the second apron becomes the killer because it ruins your other options (Taxpayer MLE vanishes as an option, draft picks become untradable as far out as they are now).

    You're basically saying that we should let CJ walk for nothing which is terrible asset management, and then just try and surround the top guys with rookie-scale contracts but the issue there is that as soon as they become impactful enough to actually support the stars in winning, they're due their extension and you either have to pay them (in which case, you should have just paid Trey and Herb in the first place) or you trade them to start again and you're stuck in a continual loop where you're just funnelling rookies through a filter without keeping any of them once they're good enough to be impactful because you can't afford it.

    And that's assuming you keep drafting Trey Murphy and Herb Jones when you could just as easily be drafting Jaxson Hayes and Kira Lewis.

    I don't watch the NFL so I'm not going to discuss the Saints comparison, I have no idea how similar the situations are, but within the confines of the NBA your situation doesn't seem to make sense imo.
    I didn't say that about CJ at all. I never got that specific. When you're looking at building a long time competitive franchise, you have to come up with a system that keeps a contender together for a long period of time. I've seen the local talking heads mention two outcomes: 1) Try to keep this team together for a season or two and then enter cap hell and eventually have to blow it up and 2) trade one of our stars now to get a rookie star and stave off the cap hell for a few years as a pseudo rebuild.

    They all ignore the most logical solution of 3) keep a steady stream of young talent flowing in so that you can let the solid players move on when they are due huge deals. Not only is that the most logical choice, their recent draft history shows they can pull it off, and it's the exact strategy their sister NFL franchise uses. The Saints and Pelicans FO are tied together in more ways than we observe. The philosophies are bound to be similar.

    It's also funny to note that it's Saints golden boy Nick Underhill breaking stories today and not people from the New Orleans Pelicans Elite Internet Lounge we're all not invited to.
    Good positive energy.

    But also, yo mama's fat.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    They all ignore the most logical solution of 3) keep a steady stream of young talent flowing in so that you can let the solid players move on when they are due huge deals. Not only is that the most logical choice, their recent draft history shows they can pull it off, and it's the exact strategy their sister NFL franchise uses. The Saints and Pelicans FO are tied together in more ways than we observe. The philosophies are bound to be similar.
    The problem with that is the one I just outlined.

    Either that ''steady stream of young talent'' is impactful enough that the team is good, in which case

    A) You're not getting good draft picks going forward and
    B) You're going to have to pay them or else let them go again (in which case, why not just keep Trey and Herb?)

    OR

    They're not impactful enough on their rookie deals to keep the team good in which case, you suck. Top heavy team with one or two elite player and then a bunch of minimums and rookies filling out the rosters - it'll be like the worst days of the Ad/Jrue era.

    If you want a team that is actually good, it's going to cost money. You can either give that money to the guys you already have, like Trey and Herb, or you can give it to someone else, but you're giving it to someone. There's no such thing as an elite NBA team on the cheap. So the question becomes how do you set yourself up to be good once the flexibility runs out. That's the choice as I see it, not some steady stream of young players who are somehow productive enough to keep us good but not productive enough to cost us money.
    Basketball.

  3. #103
    Dae, I think our different posting philosophies are that you post what you think the best strategy would be and I tend to post what I think the FO is doing. So I'm not disagreeing with you and saying I think your way is worse, I'm more looking at it like 'they've done this, this, and this so connecting the dots I think this is what their next move will be'. I think the FO is very confident in their talent evaluation and scouting and they absolutely think they can keep hitting on draft talent. All they have to do is find a Herb/Jose/Trey 25% of the time with the way they accumulate picks and the stables stay fresh. I think we'll keep seeing them trade back in drafts to keep the ammunition stockpile up.
    Last edited by msusousaphone; 06-15-2023 at 07:11 PM.

  4. #104
    And again, that's also hoping that you're hitting on draft picks regularly, which is obviously what we hope for but isn't something you can guarantee.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    Dae, I think our different posting philosophies are that you post what you think the best strategy would be and I tend to post what I think the FO is doing. So I'm not disagreeing with you and saying I think your way is worse, I'm more looking at it like 'they've done this, this, and this so connecting the dots I think this is what their next move will be'. I think the FO is very confident in their talent evaluation and scouting and they absolutely think they can keep hitting on draft talent. All they have to do is find a Herb/Jose/Trey 25% of the time with the way they accumulate picks and the stables stay fresh. I think we'll keep seeing them trade back in drafts to keep the ammunition stockpile up.
    Well that's fair enough.

    You're right as well, I am always trying to say what I think would be best - what Griff and co will actually do is a different thing entirely.

    I just think that if they follow that path it's a huge mistake. It's the pathway to eternal Wizard status.

  6. #106
    I would ask the front office, if they are super confident that they can ensure an influx of young talent through late first rounders, to take a look at their draft history and ask themselves where the evidence of that drafting prowess is. For every Murphy there's a Louzada.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post



    Full transcript of Woj's answer:

    'Listen, it's hard to trade a player when maybe his value is at a little bit of a low. He played what, 29 games last year? Unless you're getting 2 or 3 in the draft, and I don't think they're getting that, I would be surprised, I would be really really surprised if they moved off of him. Now, teams can quietly test the value of what a player is, Team GM, president, who's close with another GM and doesn't think it'll get out, can make the call one-on-one, hey would you do player X for player Y? And I think that happens more than people know. I'm not saying that the Pelicans have done any of that, I don't know that they have with Zion, but it does happen. But that doesn't mean you're looking to trade a guy, you just want to know what he's worth. That happens all the time. I would say outside of 6, 7, 8 players in the league it probably happens with almost everybody else at some point. He's too talented, he's still too young, you saw in that brief period last year they had the best record in the league right when he went down, or close to it. He's unstoppable - when he's on the floor. So I think you give it at least another year, or two.

    I won't rule anything out, you can't in this league, but I would still be really really surprised if Zion Williamson is not on New Orleans' opening night roster.''
    LeESPN had a panel talking about the draft and Woj specifically talked about the Pelicans. He said nothing about them trying to move up and then spoke about how the Pels FO believes in their ability to evaluate talent in the draft. Anywhere and in either round.

    The only one that brought up the Pels moving Zion was Kendick mushmouth Perkins, then Zach Lowe. Woj (one of the very few media names I trust) was silent during that whole part of it.

    So what he said on that podcast explains that.


  8. #108
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! donato's Avatar
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    So...a shooter or Lively then? I suppose they could also look at Wallace if he's there.

  9. #109
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! donato's Avatar
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    Next Thursday can't get here fast enough.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by donato View Post
    So...a shooter or Lively then? I suppose they could also look at Wallace if he's there.
    If we actually use 14, Wallace would be cool if he dropped - which is always possible - but probably unlikely. ESPN has him going 15th though so it's always possible.

    Lively would be an overdraft at #14 in my opinion, but there are options who will probably be available around there. If you're just after shooting Jett Howard will probably still be there.

    My preference would probably be to trade back and see if we could pick up another asset though, given most current mocks. We're fresh out of 2nd rounders for years to come, pretty much, and their value has just increased - if we could move back a handful of spots and pick up a 2nd I'd take that, and some people have floated seeing if Brooklyn would want to swap #14 for #21 and #22. I'd take that for sure, too.

  11. #111

  12. #112


    Andrew don't do this to me.

  13. #113
    He said it was about the USMNT, false alarm

  14. #114
    Apparently latest is the Pels have no interest in trading Zion. No interest in trading BI (obviously) according to Jonathan Givony of ESPN on Zach Lowes podcast.

    Never heard of Mr Givony. Can't post link at the moment.
    Last edited by luckyman; 06-15-2023 at 11:12 PM.

  15. #115
    Givony is mostly a draft guy, he's reasonably reliable on that, haven't really heard too much from him on other issues. He does the mock drafts for ESPN.

  16. #116
    USA USA USA

    Great game.

    But anyways....y'all remember back when we had like 20 future 2nd rounders in the ammo bag? We went through those fast.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    USA USA USA

    Great game.

    But anyways....y'all remember back when we had like 20 future 2nd rounders in the ammo bag? We went through those fast.
    Between using them to get off moves that he changed his mind about within a season, and our old friend Cash Considerations, Griff blazed through 'em.

    I checked the other day but my memory sucks so I could be wrong, but I believe the next time we have a completely free 2nd round pick available, that hasn't been traded or is subject to being claimed by another team in a conditional situation, is 2030.

  18. #118
    https://www.espn.com/espnradio/podca.../_/id/10528553

    https://basketball.realgm.com/wireta...ion-Williamson

    "I've been told New Orleans is not trading Zion," said Givony on the Zach Lowe Podcast. "And no interest in trading Brandon Ingram. I would be very surprised if anything ended up happening there at two or three.
    "They were the No. 1 team in the West last year when Zion went down with the injury. If he's healthy, which he rarely is, but when he's healthy, he is easily one of the best players in the NBA. So I don't see it happening. That was pretty much shut down to me as a possibility of Zion to Charlotte.
    "Or Portland," said Givony. "They haven't even spoken with Portland. I think New Orleans has made some calls, just to see what it would take to get to one, get to two, but I don't think it went past that."
    Those quotes from Givony come in at around the 58 minute mark of the podcast.
    Last edited by luckyman; 06-16-2023 at 01:20 AM.

  19. #119
    I think one of the most disappointing things we could do as a team is just assume we're fine and make no real changes at all.

    Not even speaking specifically about the Zion/Ingram thing but like, everything overall. We stick with JV, stick with CJ starting, keeping Jax, etc. Just ''run it back'' verbatim.

    Like, regardless of whether you think that team is championship level or not (health willing), your window is incredibly small with it because the CBA annihilates that team in only two or three years and there's no way ownership is going to pay the crushing luxury tax that keeping that squad together would incur. Especially not repeater tax.

    It would be like ''okay, team's there, you got three years to win a ring, no room for error, and then you are done''. That's terrifying.

  20. #120
    And I should clarify, I don't really mean just this summer I mean by the trade deadline, cause things could happen in-season or at that deadline. But if we're just running it back identically by the end of next year, I guess.

  21. #121
    Also some interesting things said about Kobe Bufkin. Even a workout with the Pels that was apparently cancelled.

    I watched some Michigan games and he didn't really stand out, but I've heard repeatedly he played better at the end of the year.

    Guess I better go watch.

  22. #122
    CJ gets waaaaay too much hate. He's a great shooting guard. He was forced to play more point than was ever intended with major injuries to BI, Zion, and Jose plus he was doing it with a hurt thumb. But when the team is healthy, CJ will rarely play point and he's the perfect SG for this team. Every one will love him again ten games into the season.

    JV. I don't know. It's so hard to judge this team because of all the missed time. We were leading the league win healthy but most importantly, we had roasted the Nuggets. I'd let this team ride for a while and see what's up. It was just regular season, but Denver looks like the team to beat next season, too, and this lineup did it.

  23. #123
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I think one of the most disappointing things we could do as a team is just assume we're fine and make no real changes at all.

    Not even speaking specifically about the Zion/Ingram thing but like, everything overall. We stick with JV, stick with CJ starting, keeping Jax, etc. Just ''run it back'' verbatim.

    Like, regardless of whether you think that team is championship level or not (health willing), your window is incredibly small with it because the CBA annihilates that team in only two or three years and there's no way ownership is going to pay the crushing luxury tax that keeping that squad together would incur. Especially not repeater tax.

    It would be like ''okay, team's there, you got three years to win a ring, no room for error, and then you are done''. That's terrifying.
    Or, just make a move when the salary cap does become an issue instead of blowing up what was the best team in the west when healthy.

  24. #124
    Hollygrove 4 Life DroopyDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    LeESPN had a panel talking about the draft and Woj specifically talked about the Pelicans. He said nothing about them trying to move up and then spoke about how the Pels FO believes in their ability to evaluate talent in the draft. Anywhere and in either round.

    The only one that brought up the Pels moving Zion was Kendick mushmouth Perkins, then Zach Lowe. Woj (one of the very few media names I trust) was silent during that whole part of it.

    So what he said on that podcast explains that.

    I never believed in the "Scoot" rumors.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Or, just make a move when the salary cap does become an issue instead of blowing up what was the best team in the west when healthy.
    You won't be able to make such a move when the salary cap becomes an issue - or at least, any move will be significantly more tricky to make.

    The number of times we've seen teams say ''oh well, we won't make the move now, we'll just extend what we have and make the move later'' only to get stuck with nigh untradeable contracts is unbelievable.

    Washington is the prime example I keep going to because it's the most recent and it's currently ongoing. Could've traded Beal a few years ago when he was a bit younger, contract was cheaper, value was at its highest. They didn't, they decided to extend him for the big contract, now he's earning $50m a season and almost nobody can trade for him even if they wanted to - and most of them don't want to, because he's not worth that money.

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