November 9th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Chicago Bulls - 5-5

[Upper Decker]

So there is nothing to debate on Zion? He is immune from what we do on message boards with every other player, coach, team, etc?

That’s just wild to me. You can applaud him on anything he does well but when there are negatives “it’s too early” or “he hasn’t played enough games” or “he’s still rusty”

Always something. But we only give that grace when it’s our player and we like them. In the future, I have zero doubt this board will be united in ragging on him when he is on another team, still disappointing

But fine, a fair debate we can have is this simple: Do people think Zions peak will be better or worse than AD’s? The dude we clown every day. Who here thinks Zion’s peak exceeds his?

That fair to ask? A reasonable question? Or is that somehow offensive too?

You're conflating arguments.

Of course it is okay to criticize Zion. You can criticize his shot selection or his foul shooting or whatever.

But the "Beta" argument is silly. It is like some stupid "clutch gene" argument Skip Bayless might use. Skip and Shannon will now debate whether Zion has the "It factor." That's meaningless garbage. Does Zion need to be more aggressive on offense? Yes! But this Beta stuff is nonsense. That's the only think I'm objecting to.

[MichaelMcNamara]

How quickly Mac has forgotten how disappointed he was in AD's defensive development in his year 2 and 3 seasons. I need to go back into the depths of In the No to find some quotes. Those were some seriously dark days man

Yup. I criticized him. And applauded him. I was balanced. And in the end, he was a very good yet not MVP caliber player

Should I have only sunshine pumped with him back then? Should I do that with Zion now?

I am confused about the point you are trying to make here.

[MichaelMcNamara]

You're conflating arguments.

Of course it is okay to criticize Zion. You can criticize his shot selection or his foul shooting or whatever.

But the "Beta" argument is silly. It is like some stupid "clutch gene" argument Skip Bayless might use. Skip and Shannon will now debate whether Zion has the "It factor." That's meaningless garbage. Does Zion need to be more aggressive on offense? Yes! But this Beta stuff is nonsense. That's the only think I'm objecting to.

Is it fair to call AD a beta now? And at what point was it fair vs unfair? When he turned 25? 27? 878 games played?

It’s the Ship of Thesus in human form

[pelafanatic]

Yup. I criticized him. And applauded him. I was balanced. And in the end, he was a very good yet not MVP caliber player

Should I have only sunshine pumped with him back then? Should I do that with Zion now?

I am confused about the point you are trying to make here.

If we don't learn from history, then we are bound to repeat history. I'll be awaiting the applause. I smell a breakout coming

[luckyman]

22 year old AD was just then developing a mid range, which is still his go to move on offense today. He could not break defenders down off the dribble like Zion can. His straight line drives were not that efficient.

They lost game 3 of that 1st playoff series with the Warriors because he tried that straight line drive on Bogut to win the game and Bogut blocked it. No help needed. AD had trouble with Draymond back then.
22 year old AD was a better post defender, rebounder, and clean up man.

So all in all, if i had a choice between Zion and 22 year old AD, I'm taking Zion 10/10. Zion will improve as all players do by the time he's 25.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I disagree. Big time.

But I am taking a break from talking Zion at all until Jan 1, 2023

Go ahead and sunshine pump freely with no risk of me casting any shadows

[Upper Decker]

Is it fair to call AD a beta now? And at what point was it fair vs unfair? When he turned 25? 27? 878 games played?

It’s the Ship of Thesus in human form

Yes, AD has shown he's a Beta. Good point.

I'm not sure where the line is for Zion, but he sure wasn't a Beta in 2020. So this recent spell of passivity is the exception. At what point is it fair? I don't have that answer other than it ain't now.

[AusPel]

I refuse to believe that 2020-2021 Zion, where he should have been all NBA was an outlier, rather than a baseline

He's clearly been massively affected by all the criticism flung his way over the past 18 months

It's possible he never plays that well again, but it won't be through lack of raw ability

It's also plausible that opposing teams have a lot more data to study and scheme for when scouting Zion, but I don't think that is the real issue

Z is stuck inside his own head right now

[AusPel]

If I had to rank ideas that I see often spread that drive me the most crazy, its this idea that players can raise their trade value with a good stretch here or there. And I am not even talking about in the G League, which is a whole new level. I mean, in actual NBA games. Like, this idea that we are playing Graham to raise his trade value is bonkers. As if FO's are as dumb as a casual fan and will ignore all the other data and jsut go, "Look, he hit 5 three's the other night, he is good!!"

None of that is real. Ever. Front offices have numerous scouts and analytics people feeding them every piece of information you can imagine, over a full timeline. They discuss almost any trade for weeks and put it up against the 15 other possible trades they can make. They arent influenced, at all, by one little stretch of good play. Or even a few weeks. Westbrook's been good off the bench lately....you think anybody wants him now? All the other stuff will be ignored?

Of course not. You see how crazy it is when its a guy on another team. But when the guy is on YOUR team, you hope it can be true. Ugh, it drives me mad. Rant over.

Except when Dell gave Solo 48 mil for a couple good playoff games, and pretty pedestrian otherwise

Even when Bird had a well documented no interest extending him for work ethic issues

It does happen. Probably catalysed by extenuating circumstances of that ridiculous cap spike of 2016 and our desperate need of a wing at that point

[MichaelMcNamara]

Except when Dell gave Solo 48 mil for a couple good playoff games

Even when Bird had a well documented no interest extending him for work ethic issues

It does happen

Playoff games, yes. Of course and when you have FA as the tool to create bidding. Also, in a once in a lifetime cap raise summer.

Yes, outliers happen once in a blue moon. I am aware

[MichaelMcNamara]

Yes, AD has shown he's a Beta. Good point.

I'm not sure where the line is for Zion, but he sure wasn't a Beta in 2020. So this recent spell of passivity is the exception. At what point is it fair? I don't have that answer other than it ain't now.

Can you imagine someone giving you that answer In a debate or life in general?

Yes, that is a fair point to discuss. Just now now?

When?

I don’t know, just not now.

Whatever. On hiatus until Jan

[Silverfoxx]

Can you imagine someone giving you that answer In a debate or life in general?

Yes, that is a fair point to discuss. Just now now?

When?

I don’t know, just not now.

Whatever. On hiatus until Jan

Enjoy your Christmas Mac.

[AusPel]

Playoff games, yes. Of course and when you have FA as the tool to create bidding. Also, in a once in a lifetime cap raise summer.

Yes, outliers happen once in a blue moon. I am aware

Yeah I went on to acknowledge the cap spike was a huge factor outside of when you quoted me

Not to mention 6 years worth of scouting/analytic improvements

[PELICANSFAN]

If I had to rank ideas that I see often spread that drive me the most crazy, its this idea that players can raise their trade value with a good stretch here or there. And I am not even talking about in the G League, which is a whole new level. I mean, in actual NBA games. Like, this idea that we are playing Graham to raise his trade value is bonkers. As if FO's are as dumb as a casual fan and will ignore all the other data and jsut go, "Look, he hit 5 three's the other night, he is good!!"

None of that is real. Ever. Front offices have numerous scouts and analytics people feeding them every piece of information you can imagine, over a full timeline. They discuss almost any trade for weeks and put it up against the 15 other possible trades they can make. They arent influenced, at all, by one little stretch of good play. Or even a few weeks. Westbrook's been good off the bench lately....you think anybody wants him now? All the other stuff will be ignored?

Of course not. You see how crazy it is when its a guy on another team. But when the guy is on YOUR team, you hope it can be true. Ugh, it drives me mad. Rant over.

He ain't getting scouted at all sitting on a bench. If even one scout sees something he thinks he can work with in any playing time, it is a plus. Plenty of players are scouted in minor leagues and in trash time of games.

[AusPel]

I seem to remember a tidbit last season where Hayes was gonna be included in the CJ trade instead of NAW, (was it from you Mac?), but he had a little purple patch of about 3 weeks and Griff said nope, you're having NAW instead

Just an example of how a small sample size can have an influence on big decisions.

The net effect of trading either NAW or Jax
turned out to be basically neutral anyway, which was probably an outcome foreseeable

[pelafanatic]

I seem to remember a tidbit last season where Hayes was gonna be included in the CJ trade instead of NAW, (was it from you Mac?), but he had a little purple patch of about 3 weeks and Griff said nope, you're having NAW instead

Just an example of how a small sample size can have an influence on big decisions.

The net effect of trading either NAW or Jax
turned out to be basically neutral anyway, which was probably an outcome foreseeable

If only it was Graham instead of Hart

[AusPel]

If only it was Graham instead of Hart

Everyone knows why it wasn't Devonte

[Eyquem]

To experience the happiness of a Pelican win
and the schadenfreude of a Laker loss in the same evening is pretty nice.

Here's to many more this season!

[Freyfamilyreuni]

This is such a silly debate. Zion hasn't even played a month back in the NBA after a year off in a completely new system, with a new head coach, and mostly new players. Yet we're already deciding that we're seeing his best basketball and all of the flaws in his game have nothing to do with him time away from not just NBA level basketball but from all basketball.

[luckyman]

Zion didnt exactly come blazing out of the gates in 20/21 either.

Zion 20/21 (per game 9 games) - 21.9 pts, 8.1 rebs, 1.3 ast, 1.3 stls, 0.4 blks, 2.8 tov, 31.8 mins 55.7/0.0/62.1 shooting splits

Zion 22/23 (per game 9 games) - 22.7 pts, 6.7 rebs, 3.8 ast, 1.1 stls, 0.3 blks, 2.7 tov, 32.0 mins, 53.9/40.0/70.4 shooting splits

Advanced stats will be similarly close.


So once again, people really need to wait for at least 30 games before making judgements. It's EARLY.

[Sovereign]

Zion didnt exactly come blazing out of the gates in 20/21 either.

Zion 20/21 (per game 9 games) - 21.9 pts, 8.1 rebs, 1.3 ast, 1.3 stls, 0.4 blks, 2.8 tov, 31.8 mins 55.7/0.0/62.1 shooting splits

Zion 22/23 (per game 9 games) - 22.7 pts, 6.7 rebs, 3.8 ast, 1.1 stls, 0.3 blks, 2.7 tov, 32.0 mins, 53.9/40.0/70.4 shooting splits

Advanced stats will be similarly close.


So once again, people really need to wait for at least 30 games before making judgements. It's EARLY.

This is actually true. I don't know about waiting until almost half the season's passed, but yeah based on how it took him a while to get going in his last season I'll be patient.

[hornetsrebirth]

Zion didnt exactly come blazing out of the gates in 20/21 either.

Zion 20/21 (per game 9 games) - 21.9 pts, 8.1 rebs, 1.3 ast, 1.3 stls, 0.4 blks, 2.8 tov, 31.8 mins 55.7/0.0/62.1 shooting splits

Zion 22/23 (per game 9 games) - 22.7 pts, 6.7 rebs, 3.8 ast, 1.1 stls, 0.3 blks, 2.7 tov, 32.0 mins, 53.9/40.0/70.4 shooting splits

Advanced stats will be similarly close.


So once again, people really need to wait for at least 30 games before making judgements. It's EARLY.

Also, those numbers arent that bad really considering its a deep team and Zion isnt the number 1 option. He definitely has room to improve but its not like 22.7 pts, 6.7 rebs, 3.8 ast per game is a joke

[ml wave]

Is it fair to call AD a beta now? And at what point was it fair vs unfair? When he turned 25? 27? 878 games played?

It’s the Ship of Thesus in human form

Ship of Theseus? I think Street Clothes is good enough...he's hurt a lot but not a lot of surgeries or anything.

[AusPel]

Ship of Theseus? I think Street Clothes is good enough...he's hurt a lot but not a lot of surgeries or anything.

No, Ship of The sus

Wicked thought experiment though

[rocketfox]

He has said it himself? there are all these things he is capable of and does in scrimmages and practice that he is just too afraid to do in games because of fear of failure

It?s a perfectionist syndrome and you gotta lose that in sports. The best hitters fail 70% of the time. The best 3 pt shooters miss 60% of the time. The best QBs throw an INT and come back and assume risk on the very next play. Honestly, what Zion is describing is very similar to what Ben Simmons was saying about himself two or three years ago and look at his downfall

Not saying that will happen but that?s the worst case scenario for this. What he needs to do is develop Steph?s mentality and that will only come with failing at things and realizing the world didn?t end when you failed

kind of a double edged sword too because it makes shot selection pretty good when a guy isn't settling and is driving to the basket.

But there are times you need to work on your game and take those other shots too.