Please do not trade Zion or Ingram for Durant (PART 2)

[Upper Decker]

Up next Boston, Will Boston Buy or Pass on Durant?

https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/...ing-by-the-day

I loathe barstool, but this is a good article. I agree with this take:

This whole thing is crazy when you sit back and think about it. This is Kevin Durant! One of the best players to ever play the game! You would think teams would be bending over backwards to bring in that type of talent. But it just goes to show you how deep the NBA is. Teams care about age/health/etc, especially when you are either already contending, or are a young team on the rise. If KD was like 31, he's probably already traded by now.

But for the moment, it looks like the market has spoken and there's just nothing out there.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Hate Barstool? Why? Because they act like men and not sad, wimpy, soft feminists?

[neitzelbaby12]

Mac you've been wild lately

I don't pay attention to them much. My only thoughts are Big Cat and PFT are funny and Portnoy is a weirdo

[13 - 3]

Hate Barstool? Why? Because they act like men and not sad, wimpy, soft feminists?

[Eman5805]

Hate Barstool? Why? Because they act like men and not sad, wimpy, soft feminists?

Ah! No! Stop that. You wanna get this thread snuffed out too?

[MichaelMcNamara]

Mac you've been wild lately

I don't pay attention to them much. My only thoughts are Big Cat and PFT are funny and Portnoy is a weirdo

I play whatever character the board needs for balance

[13 - 3]

I play whatever character the board needs for balance

There was a poster on here that thought Ingram was crap.

[new city champ]

Ringer weighs in on star-chasing vs. continuity strategies… https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/8...ter-continuity

[MichaelMcNamara]

Ringer weighs in on star-chasing vs. continuity strategies… https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/8...ter-continuity

All of these debates and articles eventually boil down to 'championships' -- wider window vs bigger window, continuity vs talent, etc. But all with that one thing in mind -- what gives you the best chance to win a title.

Personally, I have become a journey over destination guy the more I have lived this weird thing called life. I might be wrong, but I really really dont think it was a ton of fun for Lakers fans to win the 2020 title. I bet that Nuggets fans experienced more joy from 2018-2022 than Lakers fans did in that same stretch, even though the Lakers won a title. I bet Grizzlies fans had WAY more fun last year than Lakers fans had in 2020.

If we were somehow able to measure joy, I would bet that Pels fans would experience more watching drafted guys like DD, Herb, and Trey grow and play their hearts out and fall short every year for the next 7 years than winning a title with KD in two years and then have it eventually disolve a la Miami Heat where some of the stars age out (Wade, Bosh) and the other leaves as a result, and no young dudes come up to help out because the cupboard is bare.

I just dont believe that kind of title brings as much joy as people think it does. The counter would be the Raptors and what that mercenary title did for that fan base. But they also had Lowry and some major homegrown pieces - Siakam, FVV, OG, etc. I think if you get KD and keep say Herb, and he is a big part of the title, then it would be Raptors-esque

[neworleanshoo]

Thrilled to read the barstool quotes. Don't screw this up, Pels! We have the makings of something truly special and as a new ticket holder, I'm excited to be along for the ride. Blowing up our promising young roster for an aging, unlikable primadonna chasing a ring is the exact opposite of what I want us to do. New Orleans wants to care about its players. It's always been that way.

[new city champ]

Most policy decisions are more about trade offs than right v. wrong. Agree there would be much more satisfaction watching our home-grown talent go for a chip than via an aging, disgruntled megastar. Also, standing pat spreads out risk on the downside. If you move all your young depth and KD breaks down/becomes unhappy, you are really up the creek…

[Upper Decker]

Hate Barstool? Why? Because they act like men and not sad, wimpy, soft feminists?

Pretty much.

Another reason for Griff to stick with the homegrown approach: job security. If we continue to develop players, the pressure to win NOW is off. You kick that pressure down the road. You cash in your chips for KD and it doesn't work out? You're getting fired.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Most policy decisions are more about trade offs than right v. wrong. Agree there would be much more satisfaction watching our home-grown talent go for a chip than via an aging, disgruntled megastar. Also, standing pat spreads out risk on the downside. If you move all your young depth and KD breaks down/becomes unhappy, you are really up the creek…

I think all agree with this. The debate, IMO, is —- If you could peek into the future and see the following two outcomes, which would you choose:

A) Trade for KD. Go to WCF in year 1, win chip in year two, and then 2nd round, 2nd round, first round, first round…Zion and/or BI start to look elsewhere because of inability to build a great team around them, eventual trade one or both and retool/rebuild

B) Don’t trade for KD. Two out of the three of DD, Herb, and Trey really develop, along with one more guy we draft over next four years. Combined with Zion and/or BI, you have 4 or 5 guys who become Pels for the majority of their career (say 9-10 years). Play their primes here, all are loved by fan base for decades. But it’s a 90s Jazz situation where they are always 50 wins, get close a few times, maybe even a Finals trip or two. But never win it

You KNOW those are the two outcomes…which do you choose?

[neworleanshoo]

Pretty much.

Another reason for Griff to stick with the homegrown approach: job security. If we continue to develop players, the pressure to win NOW is off. You kick that pressure down the road. You cash in your chips for KD and it doesn't work out? You're getting fired.

exactly right - and the vast majority of local fans actually PREFER the former approach! it makes no sense to ruin that.

[neworleanshoo]

I think all agree with this. The debate, IMO, is —- If you could peek into the future and see the following two outcomes, which would you choose:

A) Trade for KD. Go to WCF in year 1, win chip in year two, and then 2nd round, 2nd round, first round, first round…Zion and/or BI start to look elsewhere because of inability to build a great team around them, eventual trade one or both and retool/rebuild

B) Don’t trade for KD. Two out of the three of DD, Herb, and Trey really develop, along with one more guy we draft over next four years. Combined with Zion and/or BI, you have 4 or 5 guys who become Pels for the majority of their career (say 9-10 years). Play their primes here, all are loved by fan base for decades. But it’s a 90s Jazz situation where they are always 50 wins, get close a few times, maybe even a Finals trip or two. But never win it

You KNOW those are the two outcomes…which do you choose?

It's a red herring argument because obviously you don't KNOW you'll never win a title without trading for KD (I think it's very possible). But regardless, I'd still choose B. Give me long-term relevance and players I'm invested in - and who are invested in the city - any day. The Saints have painfully failed to win another title for nearly 15 years, but I've been a rabid fan over that period because we we've been a team that's FUN to pull for with the arrow seemingly always pointed even further up.

[Eman5805]

All of these debates and articles eventually boil down to 'championships' -- wider window vs bigger window, continuity vs talent, etc. But all with that one thing in mind -- what gives you the best chance to win a title.

Personally, I have become a journey over destination guy the more I have lived this weird thing called life. I might be wrong, but I really really dont think it was a ton of fun for Lakers fans to win the 2020 title. I bet that Nuggets fans experienced more joy from 2018-2022 than Lakers fans did in that same stretch, even though the Lakers won a title. I bet Grizzlies fans had WAY more fun last year than Lakers fans had in 2020.

If we were somehow able to measure joy, I would bet that Pels fans would experience more watching drafted guys like DD, Herb, and Trey grow and play their hearts out and fall short every year for the next 7 years than winning a title with KD in two years and then have it eventually disolve a la Miami Heat where some of the stars age out (Wade, Bosh) and the other leaves as a result, and no young dudes come up to help out because the cupboard is bare.

I just dont believe that kind of title brings as much joy as people think it does. The counter would be the Raptors and what that mercenary title did for that fan base. But they also had Lowry and some major homegrown pieces - Siakam, FVV, OG, etc. I think if you get KD and keep say Herb, and he is a big part of the title, then it would be Raptors-esque

I also measure in the "almost got 'em" of it all too. There is a tangible bit of fan trauma I'll call it. Like how Saints fans feel right now. Consisrtently good enough to win every game, but we get to the playoffs and suffer some disappointment or get cheated and then just burn out with a beyond his prime QB desperate to get one last hurrah.

Now I see fans flinching at any tiny bit of bad news. Jameis strains his foot and dudes are like "wHaT dOEs TwEAk evEN MeAN?!"

But me? I wouldn't trade this last 17 years of Saints fandom for anything. It's been great watching this team ebb and flow.

I'd dream of the Pels getting to that level of consistency. Tossing it away for Durant? Only in some have your cake and still eat it scenario where the Nets get pennies on the dollar from us. Let us run with the team as is. Play this thing out and have fun watching it grow.

[neworleanshoo]

All of these debates and articles eventually boil down to 'championships' -- wider window vs bigger window, continuity vs talent, etc. But all with that one thing in mind -- what gives you the best chance to win a title.

Personally, I have become a journey over destination guy the more I have lived this weird thing called life. I might be wrong, but I really really dont think it was a ton of fun for Lakers fans to win the 2020 title. I bet that Nuggets fans experienced more joy from 2018-2022 than Lakers fans did in that same stretch, even though the Lakers won a title. I bet Grizzlies fans had WAY more fun last year than Lakers fans had in 2020.

If we were somehow able to measure joy, I would bet that Pels fans would experience more watching drafted guys like DD, Herb, and Trey grow and play their hearts out and fall short every year for the next 7 years than winning a title with KD in two years and then have it eventually disolve a la Miami Heat where some of the stars age out (Wade, Bosh) and the other leaves as a result, and no young dudes come up to help out because the cupboard is bare.

I just dont believe that kind of title brings as much joy as people think it does. The counter would be the Raptors and what that mercenary title did for that fan base. But they also had Lowry and some major homegrown pieces - Siakam, FVV, OG, etc. I think if you get KD and keep say Herb, and he is a big part of the title, then it would be Raptors-esque

I can't agree more with all of this. Totally correct.

[MichaelMcNamara]

It's a red herring argument because obviously you don't KNOW you'll never win a title without trading for KD (I think it's very possible). But regardless, I'd still choose B. Give me long-term relevance and players I'm invested in - and who are invested in the city - any day. The Saints have painfully failed to win another title for nearly 15 years, but I've been a rabid fan over that period because we we've been a team that's FUN to pull for with the arrow seemingly always pointed even further up.

Its a thought exercise. For the millionth time, I am very aware you cant guarantee anything. Could trade for KD, Steph, and Embiid to add to BI and Zion, and a title wouldnt be guaranteed.

The point of a thought experiment is to rank priorities. It is not an "argument" being made. Its simply two scenarios put out to determine if you really believe titles are the be all, end all or if there is something more to fandom

[MichaelMcNamara]

Reading it back, I could have been nicer

I just want to be very clear that I will never argue that KD, or any move for that matter guarantees anything. Just like there are no guarantees with not doing a move. No guarantee that any of these young guys will amount to anything of real value

But the point of hypotheticals is to pit multiple good or bad outcomes against each other and choose one, thereby showcasing your ranking of priorities. Everyone wants money, but not at the cost of loss of love maybe. But perhaps you would trade 5 years at the end of your life for way more money in your 30s, etc. That is the point of a thought experiment. It is not to make an argument

[Upper Decker]

Reading it back, I could have been nicer

I just want to be very clear that I will never argue that KD, or any move for that matter guarantees anything. Just like there are no guarantees with not doing a move. No guarantee that any of these young guys will amount to anything of real value

But the point of hypotheticals is to pit multiple good or bad outcomes against each other and choose one, thereby showcasing your ranking of priorities. Everyone wants money, but not at the cost of loss of love maybe. But perhaps you would trade 5 years at the end of your life for way more money in your 30s, etc. That is the point of a thought experiment. It is not to make an argument

You were pretty clear with what you were doing. Its okay, my man. Sometimes folks just can't hang with your brilliance. I try.

[MichaelMcNamara]

It’s not brilliance, it’s just the way you are taught getting to the same end point in Philosophy

In standard human dialogue, people usually start with their end claims and then fill in the rational afterwards. In philosophy, you start more meta, testing and establishing the foundation of truths/your beliefs and then building the conclusion from that

Standard people scream “I don’t wanna trade BI for KD!” And then say their ‘why’s’ when debated. A philosopher would first determine what it is they deem most critical and valuable and why, and then build out their conclusion from there. Just different ways to get to the same end point. I much prefer the latter

[Taker597]

Hate Barstool? Why? Because they act like men and not sad, wimpy, soft feminists?

That is some Out of Pocketism.

[Taker597]

Okay, this thread got pretty entertaining. Lol

[AusPel]

+1 for the journey over destination guy

Gutting the team for KD reeks of short-sightedness and I wouldn't even be happy with a title led KD anyway.

He's a 34, soon to be 35 year old primadonna dbag who picks fights with nobodys like me on the Internet and I want nothing to do with him

I'm happy with as far as internal growth can take us over the next 2 to 4 years.

This is basically year 0 anyway. The core is locked up, locked in and ready to rock

LES GEAUX

Caveat: If we could make salary work with DG, Hayes, Temple, Naji, Kira, then yes I'll do it

Ok I'll chuck in Trey too, but no more. Maaaaybe JV. Yeah JV can go because he can't guard pick and roll. That's big.

Am I conflicted?

A little, maybe a lot. Basically every major decision in life involves some degree of confliction

Therein lies the struggle

[coreylaron]

If I make a trade for KD, the enjoyment factor for me would be highest if it’s for Zion. Much prefer that than our young defensive minded try hards. If it’s simply KD by any means or no KD, i stick with the current team. If we think about Zion wasn’t really apart of the team we grew to love. Seemed to be a foil even