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Thread: Please do not trade Zion or Ingram for Durant

  1. #251
    I would want a few more pieces in a three way trade or straight up with Nets before I am willing to say bye to multiple first round picks.

  2. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee2000 View Post
    You are assuming Ingram and multiple first round picks are a fair price. I don't see that "universe"
    And if KD was on our team you wouldn?t think Ingram and picks would be a fair price either. I can point to thousands of studies on bias of our own things, but people deny they suffer from it. Which is fine. But I would bet my life that if we had a happy KD on this team next to Zion and CJ and some blogger posted an idea of BI and picks for KD to line up with Zions timeline, we would be roasting that person. Just how humans are programmed
    @mcnamara247

  3. #253
    Any analysis of KD vs Ingram presumes that Ingram is re-signed in 2025 by the Pels. If he doesn't, its safe to assume KD's numbers are better than Ingram's during the next three seasons unless KD gets hurt. Durant is all NBA 1st or second team, 10 times in his career. Ingram has never done either. I have little reason to think he will be a top ten NBA player in a season more than once during his career when Giannis, Luka, Tatum, Booker, etc are contemporaries.


    On the downside, KD will make approximately 20 million per season more than Ingram during that time. That limits who else you can sign to PG or C. If the Pels extend CJ, which it appears they will, have decided their big 3 are Zion, CJ and Ingram. If you don't see a championship window in there during the next 3 seasons with a supporting cast of Herb, JV, etc. you make the trade.

    Clearly Ingram will be better for longer than KD but he's going to demand a contract like KD's current one in 2024/2025. Given what we know of Zion's injury issues and CJ's age, the window to win is smaller than we think.

  4. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by liger420 View Post
    Any analysis of KD vs Ingram presumes that Ingram is re-signed in 2025 by the Pels. If he doesn't, its safe to assume KD's numbers are better than Ingram's during the next three seasons unless KD gets hurt. Durant is all NBA 1st or second team, 10 times in his career. Ingram has never done either. I have little reason to think he will be a top ten NBA player in a season more than once during his career when Giannis, Luka, Tatum, Booker, etc are contemporaries.


    On the downside, KD will make approximately 20 million per season more than Ingram during that time. That limits who else you can sign to PG or C. If the Pels extend CJ, which it appears they will, have decided their big 3 are Zion, CJ and Ingram. If you don't see a championship window in there during the next 3 seasons with a supporting cast of Herb, JV, etc. you make the trade.

    Clearly Ingram will be better for longer than KD but he's going to demand a contract like KD's current one in 2024/2025. Given what we know of Zion's injury issues and CJ's age, the window to win is smaller than we think.
    Be careful.... every account that is not overly optimistic has been labeled as a 'Mac burner' account. Your next post should be a picture of you writing your next post with a newspaper dated today

  5. #255
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    And if KD was on our team you wouldn?t think Ingram and picks would be a fair price either. I can point to thousands of studies on bias of our own things, but people deny they suffer from it. Which is fine. But I would bet my life that if we had a happy KD on this team next to Zion and CJ and some blogger posted an idea of BI and picks for KD to line up with Zions timeline, we would be roasting that person. Just how humans are programmed
    But that is not the situation. He is not a happy KD on the Nets. He is demanding a trade, so a BI and multiple 1sts would be a great return given what reportedly has been potential trade offers from other teams.

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    But that is not the situation. He is not a happy KD on the Nets. He is demanding a trade, so a BI and multiple 1sts would be a great return given what reportedly has been potential trade offers from other teams.
    Again, this is flipping it. And it presupposes that KD would happily come to the Pels (which would be necessary for Griff to pull the trigger)

    So, in a "flip it" scenario, you do have a happy with the Pels scenario on this side. Its very hard to do. Peoples minds actively fight against it. But if you really, really flip it and try to imagine yourself, truly, in that flipped universe, it would require far more than BI and some picks for you to be willing to do it IMO.

    Also, I keep seeing this -- you dont just have to beat the best offer of the other 28 teams. You have to meet the threshhold for the Nets. They dont have to do anything here. This isnt an item up for auction and you just have to beat the best competitor by 1 cent. You gonna meet or go above the seller's minimum sell price.
    Last edited by MichaelMcNamara; 07-05-2022 at 01:49 PM.

  7. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by liger420 View Post
    Any analysis of KD vs Ingram presumes that Ingram is re-signed in 2025 by the Pels. If he doesn't, its safe to assume KD's numbers are better than Ingram's during the next three seasons unless KD gets hurt. Durant is all NBA 1st or second team, 10 times in his career. Ingram has never done either. I have little reason to think he will be a top ten NBA player in a season more than once during his career when Giannis, Luka, Tatum, Booker, etc are contemporaries.


    On the downside, KD will make approximately 20 million per season more than Ingram during that time. That limits who else you can sign to PG or C. If the Pels extend CJ, which it appears they will, have decided their big 3 are Zion, CJ and Ingram. If you don't see a championship window in there during the next 3 seasons with a supporting cast of Herb, JV, etc. you make the trade.

    Clearly Ingram will be better for longer than KD but he's going to demand a contract like KD's current one in 2024/2025. Given what we know of Zion's injury issues and CJ's age, the window to win is smaller than we think.
    That seems too alarmist to me. The belief that Zion?s got a short shelf life so trade our other assets to get him a great player because Zion will be out of the league soon. If the Pels truly believe that, they shouldn?t have given him that contract in the first place.

    I understand the fact that the KDs of the world only become available very rarely and then only to some select teams. Personally I?m skeptical that we have a realistic shot for him. But usually you make this move once you?ve determined the ceiling for your team, and you realize that the ceiling is short of a championship. We have no idea what the ceiling for our current team is. Part of the fun of becoming invested in a team is seeing just how far they can go. Once your fan base and the FO realizes what the ceiling is, then you start shopping trades to get you over the hump.

  8. #258
    Another fun hypothetical would be in which universe is Zion most likely to stay through the entire contract and maybe even sign another

  9. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Again, this is flipping it. And it presupposes that KD would happily come to the Pels (which would be necessary for Griff to pull the trigger)

    So, in a "flip it" scenario, you do have a happy with the Pels scenario on this side. Its very hard to do. Peoples minds actively fight against it. But if you really, really flip it and try to imagine yourself, truly, in that flipped universe, it would require far more than BI and some picks for you to be willing to do it IMO.

    Also, I keep seeing this -- you dont just have to beat the best offer of the other 28 teams. You have to meet the threshhold for the Nets. They dont have to do anything here. This isnt an item up for auction and you just have to beat the best competitor by 1 cent. You gonna meet or go above the seller's minimum sell price.
    Yep, the Nets best offer for KD may be their own. They have quietly put together a pretty nice supporting cast; and, as absurdly dumb as last season was, there's no reason for Kyrie to miss games this season.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelafanatic View Post
    Yep, the Nets best offer for KD may be their own. They have quietly put together a pretty nice supporting cast; and, as absurdly dumb as last season was, there's no reason for Kyrie to miss games this season.
    yep....unless the owner is just done with KD and want to move on...the nets should just tell KD, we have you for 4 years so we're not in a rush to trade you..so you either play or sit and waste the rest of your career.....the nets should still be a favorite to come out the east come October...

  11. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Be careful.... every account that is not overly optimistic has been labeled as a 'Mac burner' account. Your next post should be a picture of you writing your next post with a newspaper dated today
    Is it wrong I'm pro trade BI and keep alot of young assets (Dyson, Trey, Herb) vs trading the younger guys?
    CAW CAW!!!

    -Founder and valuable member of the Caw Caw Boyz-

  12. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    And if KD was on our team you wouldn?t think Ingram and picks would be a fair price either. I can point to thousands of studies on bias of our own things, but people deny they suffer from it. Which is fine. But I would bet my life that if we had a happy KD on this team next to Zion and CJ and some blogger posted an idea of BI and picks for KD to line up with Zions timeline, we would be roasting that person. Just how humans are programmed
    Not meant to be ugly or all knowing but such studies do have their shortcomings. I have always appreciated a thorough analysis of my behavior.

  13. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by 6warddude View Post
    yep....unless the owner is just done with KD and want to move on...the nets should just tell KD, we have you for 4 years so we're not in a rush to trade you..so you either play or sit and waste the rest of your career.....the nets should still be a favorite to come out the east come October...
    From a business perspective, there's no way the owner is done with KD. They're still spending money in order to try to convince him to stay. Unless KD sits out games, that team is far more profitable with KD on the team

  14. #264
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    I think Jose might have the best selling jersey in Brooklyn if he was traded to the Nets.

  15. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Just jumping in to mention how awful a nickname ''Easy Money Sniper'' is. The fact that Durant asked people specifically not to use ''Slim Reaper'' because he prefers easymoneysniper is insane. Awful stuff.
    Actually, he wanted "The Servant" which is somehow worse.

  16. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee2000 View Post
    Not meant to be ugly or all knowing but such studies do have their shortcomings. I have always appreciated a thorough analysis of my behavior.
    For sure. I just think emotion becomes a part of the equation as a fan. Also bias from having watched X dude 77 out of 82 games and Y dude 8 out of 82 games.

    It’s not just us, I see every single fan base saying no to Durant if it costs them a player they actually like. And I think we can all agree that is objectively insane. Now, there is a clear line of cost that is too much, but I just think that line is moved often because of emotion

  17. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    I think Jose might have the best selling jersey in Brooklyn if he was traded to the Nets.
    I think my 12 year old nephew knows two Pelicans, Zion and Jose. As crazy as it sounds, Jose might currently be the second most popular Pel with the casual fans.

  18. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverfoxx View Post
    Is it wrong I'm pro trade BI and keep alot of young assets (Dyson, Trey, Herb) vs trading the younger guys?
    I think I would rather keep BI than any of them, just because of how much he bought in when he didn’t have to. But if they moved just BI and all of the young dudes stayed, I do think it would hurt less in a weird way than if say BI stayed and ALL the young dudes went out

  19. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni View Post
    That seems too alarmist to me. The belief that Zion?s got a short shelf life so trade our other assets to get him a great player because Zion will be out of the league soon. If the Pels truly believe that, they shouldn?t have given him that contract in the first place.

    I understand the fact that the KDs of the world only become available very rarely and then only to some select teams. Personally I?m skeptical that we have a realistic shot for him. But usually you make this move once you?ve determined the ceiling for your team, and you realize that the ceiling is short of a championship. We have no idea what the ceiling for our current team is. Part of the fun of becoming invested in a team is seeing just how far they can go. Once your fan base and the FO realizes what the ceiling is, then you start shopping trades to get you over the hump.
    I agree. If I remember, there was a time when the Warriors were open to moving on from Curry in the early years. How would that have changed things?

  20. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertM320 View Post
    I agree. If I remember, there was a time when the Warriors were open to moving on from Curry in the early years. How would that have changed things?
    You can always cherry pick to make the conclusion you want to be true appear true

    For instance, what if I were to postulate how great things could have been for Dallas if they traded Roddy Beubois at peak value? Or hundreds of other young players who teams pearl clutched because of their enormous potential that ended up being nothing.

    It goes all ways. It’s fine to be on one side over the other. To me, it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend one side is definitely the right side and the other is definitely wrong

  21. #271
    My point was more about the making a move before determining what your ceiling was. If GSW had actually made that move, they may have 4 fewer rings. Not in a hundred universes did Dallas consider keeping Roddy Beubois as a necessary step to reaching their ceiling.

  22. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertM320 View Post
    My point was more about the making a move before determining what your ceiling was. If GSW had actually made that move, they may have 4 fewer rings. Not in a hundred universes did Dallas consider keeping Roddy Beubois as a necessary step to reaching their ceiling.
    And I get that but the world doesnt work that way. You cant just wait to gather all information so that you KNOW now is the right time and then still be assured that the right guy will be there and you will have the best package and he wants to come, etc.

    Its all a gamble, and you gotta take risks. You think Masai KNEW they would win a title that year? If you only do things when you 100% know its right, you wont do anything

  23. #273
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Chemistry matters. It may be true that KD > BI right now, and also true that the Pelicans are better off keeping BI.

  24. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Chemistry matters. It may be true that KD > BI right now, and also true that the Pelicans are better off keeping BI.
    Were the Raptors better off keeping DeRozan?

  25. #275
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    Were the Raptors better off keeping DeRozan?
    Too many dissimilarities for this comparison to work. When the Raptors traded DeRozan for Kawhi they were a team that was stagnating and reached their ceiling after losing the conference semi finals in back to back seasons. They needed to make a move to shake things up, whereas the Pelicans are a team that is finally starting to form an identity, and clearly still in the ascending phase. Also Kawhi was younger than Derozen, whereas KD is almost 10 years older than BI.
    Last edited by hornetsrebirth; 07-05-2022 at 09:52 PM.

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