What Constitutes 'Victory' in a Phoenix Series?

[Eman5805]

That's such overated nonesense. Don't look at the dunk, look at the initial takeoff.

Zion's vertical is probably one of the lesser elements of his game. He thrives on super fast burst, unvelievable body control, touch around the basket, and quick second jump. The vertical just has to be enough to get his shot off at a certain level. Zion's body control has probably never left him. And his touch probably comes back without having to get in actual game condition. It's his second jump and more importantly his initial burst that's probably the most affected. Without it, Zion can be fairly easily guarded by length. It's Zion's suddeness that gives bigs trouble.

If he doesn't have it, he's not going to be terribly effective against the Sun's length. And on defense he's probably going to be a traffic cone.

If his burst has returned and they think they can get him in and out without his game conditioning being too big a factor, then maybe they'll risk it. On the flip side though, is you're asking a lot of Willie to try to integrate him (really a complete unknown for Willie) in the middle of a competitive play off series.

Is that what we?re doing? We?re playing body kinetics expert?

Man. Look at this dunk and take off



Oh no. He barely got near the rim. Zion lost his explosiveness. What?s that? This was before his rookie year? Oh. Maybe Zion was sick that day.

[JJackisangry]

When people ask that question, it takes everything possible from blowing my lid.

So, yes, I guess it technically is a question. It?s just a very, very, very bad one

Why even respond if it disturbs you so much? You can?t play the victim when you say dumb ish like this Mac. Sorry.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

Is that what we?re doing? We?re playing body kinetics expert?

Man. Look at this dunk and take off



Oh no. He barely got near the rim. Zion lost his explosiveness. What?s that? This was before his rookie year? Oh. Maybe Zion was sick that day.

And what does that have to do with anything I said?

[Upper Decker]

Why even respond if it disturbs you so much? You can?t play the victim when you say dumb ish like this Mac. Sorry.

He's right. It is a terrible question. Why respond? Sometimes it is hard to ignore stupid questions. The whole idea that "inserting Zion into the lineup would hurt chemistry" is so ridiculous it is hard to give it a straight answer. No. Swapping Jaxson Hayes for one of the most dominant players in the NBA is not detrimental.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

He's right. It is a terrible question. Why respond? Sometimes it is hard to ignore stupid questions. The whole idea that "inserting Zion into the lineup would hurt chemistry" is so ridiculous it is hard to give it a straight answer. No. Swapping Jaxson Hayes for one of the most dominant players in the NBA is not detrimental.

If Zion's fat ****** isn't in shape it's a detriment. And by in shape, I mean in shape to play a full contact NBA game, not dribble around a prone Teresa Weatherspoon.

[Upper Decker]

If Zion's fat ****** isn't in shape it's a detriment. And by in shape, I mean in shape to play a full contact NBA game, not dribble around a prone Teresa Weatherspoon.

A "prone" Theresa Weatherspoon? Okay dude.

[Eyquem]

I could see the argument for holding Zion back if he'd specifically been on light duty that kept his foot from getting stressed-- swimming, exercise bike, etc-- but the guy's playing 5x5 and throwing down between the legs dunks... if his foot is ready for that kind of impact, how would playing 15 minutes in an actual game be any different?

The other thing is the narrative! If he returns and they beat the Suns, that's a huge story and bonding experience, and brings us one step closer to him potentially staying long term.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

I could see the argument for holding Zion back if he'd specifically been on light duty that kept his foot from getting stressed-- swimming, exercise bike, etc-- but the guy's playing 5x5 and throwing down between the legs dunks... if his foot is ready for that kind of impact, how would playing 15 minutes in an actual game be any different?

The other thing is the narrative! If he returns and they beat the Suns, that's a huge story and bonding experience, and brings us one step closer to him potentially staying long term.

I don't know if their concern is still primarily medical. It might be, or it might be that what they've ovserved from him in controlled scrimmages, is that he's not in condition to play yet. It's kind of silly to watch him dunk the basketball in an empty gym on instagram and leap right into the narrative that he's ready to play NBA ball.

It's kind of what has pissed me off about him during this season. Every story I've heard, and the way he's using social media has come across very immature and selfish. The doctors say I'm not ready to play yet? I'll show them I'll dunk the ball and put it on social media. I don't know, how about actually do your rehab and lose your weight so you don't have to be sent to be monitored around the clock in Portland by your Nike handlers.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I don't know if their concern is still primarily medical. It might be, or it might be that what they've ovserved from him in controlled scrimmages, is that he's not in condition to play yet. It's kind of silly to watch him dunk the basketball in an empty gym on instagram and leap right into the narrative that he's ready to play NBA ball.

It's kind of what has pissed me off about him during this season. Every story I've heard, and the way he's using social media has come across very immature and selfish. The doctors say I'm not ready to play yet? I'll show them I'll dunk the ball and put it on social media. I don't know, how about actually do your rehab and lose your weight so you don't have to be sent to be monitored around the clock in Portland by your Nike handlers.

The doctors and team also see him more as an investiment that a human being. I have zero doubt that if Larry Nance was in the same exact place Zion has been for a few weeks now, Larry Nance would be playing. But if Larry gets injured again, its not worth potentially hundreds of millions to the franchise.

Which, I get as a business decision. But from Zion's POV, he is just a human who wants to play the game he loves and he knows if he wasnt such a valuable commodity, ironically, he would be able to

[JJackisangry]

He's right. It is a terrible question. Why respond? Sometimes it is hard to ignore stupid questions. The whole idea that "inserting Zion into the lineup would hurt chemistry" is so ridiculous it is hard to give it a straight answer. No. Swapping Jaxson Hayes for one of the most dominant players in the NBA is not detrimental.

It isn’t a dumb question. I have seen plenty of situations where a better player comes in and completely disrupts the chemistry of a team. Zion has a very specific skill set for one and as a result you are tempted to play to his strengths (which can work to the other team’s benefit). Stop talking nonsense.

[MichaelMcNamara]

It isn’t a dumb question. I have seen plenty of situations where a better player comes in and completely disrupts the chemistry of a team. Zion has a very specific skill set for one and as a result you are tempted to play to his strengths (which can work to the other team’s benefit). Stop talking nonsense.

No, what you have likely seen is a high usage player coming in and getting major minutes and major shots, causing huge role shifts and that causes disorientation.

This would be 15-20 minutes, off the bench, in the place of terrible players. It would be more like when PG came back to the Clippers and took the minutes from bad players. If Zion got put in the starting lineup, and they put the ball in his hands and took it out of CJ's and BI's for large stretches, then it COULD be an issue for a short period of time.

But this is him taking Graham and Naji and some Hayes minutes. 15-20. So, that cant come and wreck everything.

(Btw, reading back my initial response, I could have worded it better. My bad.)

[JJackisangry]

No, what you have likely seen is a high usage player coming in and getting major minutes and major shots, causing huge role shifts and that causes disorientation.

This would be 15-20 minutes, off the bench, in the place of terrible players. It would be more like when PG came back to the Clippers and took the minutes from bad players. If Zion got put in the starting lineup, and they put the ball in his hands and took it out of CJ's and BI's for large stretches, then it COULD be an issue for a short period of time.

But this is him taking Graham and Naji and some Hayes minutes. 15-20. So, that cant come and wreck everything.

(Btw, reading back my initial response, I could have worded it better. My bad.)

Apology accepted. Personally I think he should play for the reasons you mentioned above. I was playing devil’s advocate in my original post because let’s face it- Zion has been out a while. I need to see him before I’m convinced.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Apology accepted. Personally I think he should play for the reasons you mentioned above. I was playing devil’s advocate in my original post because let’s face it- Zion has been out a while. I need to see him before I’m convinced.

By all accounts, he is looking as skilled as ever around the basket, but the jumper is actually much improved.

[JJackisangry]

By all accounts, he is looking as skilled as ever around the basket, but the jumper is actually much improved.

That is part of the reason I want to see him. I mainly want to see how he functions in a better roster too.

[Dago75]

Getting back to the original topic, now that Booker is officially sidelined, what constitutes victory is winning the series IMO
Not saying that to minimize how good the Suns still are...I am saying that at the very least we should be on even footing with them and now have home court advantage

[MichaelMcNamara]

Getting back to the original topic, now that Booker is officially sidelined, what constitutes victory is winning the series IMO
Not saying that to minimize how good the Suns still are...I am saying that at the very least we should be on even footing with them and now have home court advantage

I mean, now with Booker out, sure. This thread was made before the series started. With no more injuries, I think its a 50/50 proposition. Add Zion for 15-20 mins per game, Pels should win this series 90% of the time IMO

[Freyfamilyreuni]

The doctors and team also see him more as an investiment that a human being. I have zero doubt that if Larry Nance was in the same exact place Zion has been for a few weeks now, Larry Nance would be playing. But if Larry gets injured again, its not worth potentially hundreds of millions to the franchise.

Which, I get as a business decision. But from Zion's POV, he is just a human who wants to play the game he loves and he knows if he wasnt such a valuable commodity, ironically, he would be able to

Sorry I'm not buying the Zion as a victim scenario anymore. If he's so invested in playing, then he has to learn to be more responsible and keep better care of himself. Do you deny that he was sent to Portland because no one could trust him to keep his weight off and rehab his injury without increased supervision?

[MichaelMcNamara]

He was not "sent to Portland"

His team came up with that idea to avoid distractions, help with his anxiety/frustrations of being around the guys but not being able to play with them, and solely focus on rehab. And the team signed off.

Zion isnt all correct. The FO isnt all correct. Both have very good logic for what they want and how they feel. I just think that the FO is more sympethized with because it is more natural for us to empathize with protection of a valuable asset than it is with a kid wanting to play the game he loves at the risk of that commodity for the fans to enjoy in the future.

Team is just trying to run out the clock. They never imagined they could go deep into the first round, let alone the 2nd. So, they thought they could run out the clock way easier than it is looking like they actually can.

[Upper Decker]

Team is just trying to run out the clock. They never imagined they could go deep into the first round, let alone the 2nd. So, they thought they could run out the clock way easier than it is looking like they actually can.

This is a rational theory of what the Pelicans are doing for sure. However, they need to re-evaluate their position. Situations change. If we have the potential to win a playoff series, you gotta rethink things. I think Griff is a smart dude. Look at what he has built thus far. I would hope he's smart enough to see how things have changed and give Zion some minutes. If he doesn't, its just gonna re-open the wounds from the meniscus recovery. FREE ZION!

BUT.....if Zion is still overweight (I have no idea what metric to use to determine that, but you know what I mean), then it is difficult to play the guy. He's had PLENTY of time to get fit. If he can't keep his weight down, I'm not sure Zion's hands are clean in all of this. The heavier he is, the more injury prone he'll be.

[MichaelMcNamara]

He isnt vengeful like that. Zions camp fell more in line because of the backlash they saw against him. They thought everyone would side with him (why, I dont know). Ever since CJ said what he said at AS break, and JJ said what he said, they have been much more willing to work side by side with Pels

[AD-AT]

He isnt vengeful like that. Zions camp fell more in line because of the backlash they saw against him. They thought everyone would side with him (why, I dont know). Ever since CJ said what he said at AS break, and JJ said what he said, they have been much more willing to work side by side with Pels

Sorry, accidentally messed my last post up that you were responding to. For the board, I asked if DG was trying to get back at the fam by holding Zion out.

But that is at least uplifting! A lot of fans have turned away from Zion, but I am still firmly in the camp that our best future is with him as a player and not a trade chip, so holding out hope.

[SonOfNOLA]

He isnt vengeful like that. Zions camp fell more in line because of the backlash they saw against him. They thought everyone would side with him (why, I dont know). Ever since CJ said what he said at AS break, and JJ said what he said, they have been much more willing to work side by side with Pels

You think the team will still sit Zion and not clear him if/when they advance to the 2nd round? They?ll need him against Utah or Dallas

[MichaelMcNamara]

You think the team will still sit Zion and not clear him if/when they advance to the 2nd round? They?ll need him against Utah or Dallas

I have no idea. I genuinely believe their plan was to run out the clock and that might not be possible any more. So I think they are scrambling for other options

[RobertM320]

I have no idea. I genuinely believe their plan was to run out the clock and that might not be possible any more. So I think they are scrambling for other options

There's really only one other option. Play him.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Game 6 would be on the 28th. 5 weeks from when he dunked between the legs. 3 weeks from when he started playing 5 on 5 (and hasnt had a setback or stopped playing, mind you)

Remember, this surgery is supposed to be a 8-10 week recovery time. Its been 9+ months. He had a setback in January and was going to be re-evaluated 6-8 weeks later. This would be nearly 17 weeks after that. Like, what are we doing here?

And to not even come out and have an official presser to give an update. Just float stuff out scattershot through Windy and Lopez to temper expectations but not say anything definite. Its all just so cowardly. Luckily, they arewinning and fans are focused on that. But man, what a frustrating FO