The Alternative to Trading the Pick for A Vet

[lawless522]

I mean, while I don't agree with MM on the whole ''lets get Kevin Love'' thing, I don't really thing this is an honest comparison.

Kevin Love was a guy who, when healthy, was very good. The issue with health is ''can he do what we've already seen him do consistently going forward''.

The idea of Simmons becoming a serious shooter is not that. That's not ''can we get around an obstacle to have him do what he's already done more consistently'', it's ''can we bolt on an entire skillset to a guy who has historically shown absolutely zero interest or aptitude for this skillset''. It's a different hypothetical to entertain, and a less realistic one.

It wasn't a comparison. Just an honest question. Obviously, Vinson and Nelson do two vastly different jobs, but both appear to be two of the best at what they do. Just asking, in MM's estimation if the organization's trust in Nelson's ability to manage Love's health could also extend to Vinson's ability to improve Simmons' shot. I truly don't know. Thanks for your opinion though.

[MichaelMcNamara]

It wasn't a comparison. Just an honest question. Obviously, Vinson and Nelson do two vastly different jobs, but both appear to be two of the best at what they do. Just asking, in MM's estimation if the organization's trust in Nelson's ability to manage Love's health could also extend to Vinson's ability to improve Simmons' shot. I truly don't know. Thanks for your opinion though.

What is the basis of those two apparently being the best at what they do? Griff saying it is so, or is there hard evidence?

[MichaelMcNamara]

By that logic (assuming the cost isn't exorbitant), would you be in favor of trading for Ben Simmons with the belief being that Fred Vinson can fix his shot?

No - Simmons costs assets. A lot of them.

Again people saying that Love costs 60 mil -- I disagree and that is probably the barrier to agreement here. I see Love as a $12 mil cost this year and no cost the following (because he is being used as the expiring)

Remember, you are also getting off Bledsoe here, so its 12 mil more for Love and no assets given up, unlike other Bledsoe trades. I think it is too simple to just look at Love as a "60 mil contract" -- it is 12 mil in additional costs this year over Bledsoe and a big expiring to use the following year

[lawless522]

What is the basis of those two apparently being the best at what they do? Griff saying it is so, or is there hard evidence?

What is my basis for saying Nelson and Vinson "appear to be two of the best at what they do?" Players, coaches, reporters, and fans I consider more knowledgeable than I crediting them as such. Admittingly, I have no personal knowledge or basis of comparison which is why I used the word "appear." I wont pretend to know how to construct a fair compare/contrast evaluation of Nelson's and Vinson's abilities as it relates to other trainers and coaches in the league.

However, why suggest trading for Love if you don't trust in Nelson's abilities? Why be in favor of drafting Keon Johnson if you don't trust Vinson's abilities?

[pelafanatic]

What is the basis of those two apparently being the best at what they do? Griff saying it is so, or is there hard evidence?

We don't always have to play the contrarian

[MichaelMcNamara]

We don't always have to play the contrarian

I am not. I will tell you that they are not thought of as great around the league. Nelson is viewed as a guy who was ahead of the curive about 13 years ago and has since been surpassed by most. And many - including former Pels assistants - laugh at the praise Vinson gets. Because when you look at the actual track record, there is little to support he is above average relative to others in the league that do his job. He is well liked because he passes on delicate info, and in return, he gets hyped up but the reality is that the vast majority of guys didnt improve under his tutolege and a large number got better elsewhere after leaving him.

Beyond assertions of Vinson's high quality work....if you actually had to put together an objective report that proves he is great at his job, you wouldnt be able to do it using actual results. It has just been said enough and you guys have a desire to believe it on top of that, so it has become truth. But no objective data supports it

[lawless522]

No - Simmons costs assets. A lot of them.

Again people saying that Love costs 60 mil -- I disagree and that is probably the barrier to agreement here. I see Love as a $12 mil cost this year and no cost the following (because he is being used as the expiring)

Remember, you are also getting off Bledsoe here, so its 12 mil more for Love and no assets given up, unlike other Bledsoe trades. I think it is too simple to just look at Love as a "60 mil contract" -- it is 12 mil in additional costs this year over Bledsoe and a big expiring to use the following year

Thanks for answering. Not sure what other teams are offering for Simmons, but that's why I said "assuming the cost isn't exorbitant."

As for Love, I'm not disputing one word of what you've said. I agree 100% and liked the trade you put out. Seems to be some sense that I was using the Simmons scenario to disparage the Love idea. Not at all. Just wondering if your faith in our trainer extended to our shooting coach.

[lawless522]

I am not. I will tell you that they are not thought of as great around the league. Nelson is viewed as a guy who was ahead of the curive about 13 years ago and has since been surpassed by most. And many - including former Pels assistants - laugh at the praise Vinson gets. Because when you look at the actual track record, there is little to support he is above average relative to others in the league that do his job. He is well liked because he passes on delicate info, and in return, he gets hyped up but the reality is that the vast majority of guys didnt improve under his tutolege and a large number got better elsewhere after leaving him.

Beyond assertions of Vinson's high quality work....if you actually had to put together an objective report that proves he is great at his job, you wouldnt be able to do it using actual results. It has just been said enough and you guys have a desire to believe it on top of that, so it has become truth. But no objective data supports it

Well, that definitely answers my questions about Vinson. Thanks for the info.

[pelafanatic]

He is well liked because he passes on delicate info, and in return, he gets hyped up

What does this mean

[MichaelMcNamara]

I am not saying they are bad either. I am just saying that Pels fans have this belief that they have two top tier guys there, but that is not the belief around the league. And there is no objective proof for having that belief.

My thing is, though that GRIFF believes they are top tier. So, if you do, then you should go get a Love and/or a non shooter and let those guys earn their money because they are being paid a lot relative to their peers

[PELICANSFAN]

No - Simmons costs assets. A lot of them.

Again people saying that Love costs 60 mil -- I disagree and that is probably the barrier to agreement here. I see Love as a $12 mil cost this year and no cost the following (because he is being used as the expiring)

Remember, you are also getting off Bledsoe here, so its 12 mil more for Love and no assets given up, unlike other Bledsoe trades. I think it is too simple to just look at Love as a "60 mil contract" -- it is 12 mil in additional costs this year over Bledsoe and a big expiring to use the following year

Using that logic, Bledsoe is effectively a $21 million expiring this year with nothing after that and even with him being younger and healthy, we cannot get anything for him it appears. Why would we be comfortable that we can get anything for Love after this season, especially if he has another injury-filled season? There have already been reports of the Cavs considering buying him out and contenders waiting to see if that happens so that they can add him at a minimum contract.

[PELICANSFAN]

I am not. I will tell you that they are not thought of as great around the league. Nelson is viewed as a guy who was ahead of the curive about 13 years ago and has since been surpassed by most. And many - including former Pels assistants - laugh at the praise Vinson gets. Because when you look at the actual track record, there is little to support he is above average relative to others in the league that do his job. He is well liked because he passes on delicate info, and in return, he gets hyped up but the reality is that the vast majority of guys didnt improve under his tutolege and a large number got better elsewhere after leaving him.

Beyond assertions of Vinson's high quality work....if you actually had to put together an objective report that proves he is great at his job, you wouldnt be able to do it using actual results. It has just been said enough and you guys have a desire to believe it on top of that, so it has become truth. But no objective data supports it

If I recall, you were praising Nelson as one of the best when we hired him. Now that we have him, he is nothing special?

[ml wave]

Again, if you assume recent past Love = future Love

But that would have been a bad assumption for Blake, Rose, Batum, Reggie Jackson, and dozens of other players in the past. Personally, I think Love will show good production at over the next two years if he goes to a solid situation.. I think he could provide 15-18 million dollar level value for good teams. I think he could be a top 80 player, still. WILL he be? I dont know - I cant see the future, but why hire Aaron Nelson if not for this exact situation? Where if you keep a guy healthy, he can provide much more value than his acquisition cost

Again, Love might not be that guy, but I really dislike the general idea of 'Guy who was good last year will be good next year' and 'Guy who was bad last year will be bad next year' --- if that were true, all teams would only go after a handful of players and cost amongst those players skyrockets. You have to get value by betting on some guys who were bad recently

But are we "a solid situation"? Obviously more talent/better record than CLE, but new coach every year, pressure to win or else, FO called into question (including by his boy JJ), etc...that's not exactly Blake walking into Brooklyn.

Curious if your interest in Love have anything to do with him being from Portland?

[Darkhorse985]

So, I don’t think we will be taking on Love’s contract. End of thread…

[Eman5805]

If to become a playoff team you eat one crap contract, is Kevin Love capable of being the best worst contract we could target? Or would that be Siakam?

[tdcreator]

With this new found space do you think we could get Sexton by taking on Loves contract? Prob have to include a S&T with Hart and other things but would be interesting. I really don’t want Lowry or another older PG unless we getting assets back like Kemba.