Best Shooters Available (By Type)

[MichaelMcNamara]

More guys have gotten better since leaving the Pels that guys who have improved since joining. A good amount more.

I dont think Vinson is bad. I think he is like every other shooting coach in the NBA - and you guys dont know 27 or 28 of the other ones. But he is no better or worse than him, yet I feel the fans view him as a fixer. Where you can take a bad or average guy and make him good/great. And the objective data simply does not bear that out. I am not gonna count on Zion or Vinson to make guys better shooters. I am gonna go get good shooters.

[HornetGuru]

Lonzo shoots 37.9% with Zion on the court, 37.6% when he is off. No difference

I dont believe in all this gravity stuff. A guy shoots how he shoots for the most part. Zion isnt going to make guys much better - just like Fred Vinson doesnt.

In fact, Lonzo's volume is pretty much the same both with Zion on and Zion off (5.8 attempts per 23 mins when Zion is off. 6 per 22.5 wins when he is on)

Almost no difference in Lonzo. Ingram actually shoots better without Zion (40 percent vs 37 percent). Again, similar volume.

Zion wont make guys better. We have to get the guys who are already good. Both off the dribble and on the catch

The percentage Lonzo makes from 3 with or without Zion isn?t exactly an indictator of gravity because of Zion. A better indicator would be how many of the 3 were wide open 3s with Zion on or off the court. Would be a better way to tell if Zion helps guys get open more

[MichaelMcNamara]

The percentage Lonzo makes from 3 with or without Zion isn?t exactly an indictator of gravity because of Zion. A better indicator would be how many of the 3 were wide open 3s with Zion on or off the court. Would be a better way to tell if Zion helps guys get open more

No difference in open/wide open. Checked all those as well. In addition, BI shoots better in every area with Zion off as compared to on. Including MUCH better at the rim (67.7% vs 59.8%)

And I already know the next step - It doesnt matter/say much. But if it were flipped, those numbers would show something.

We take the numbers that support the narrative we want and lift them up and write off the numbers that dont support the narrative we want.

Personally, I dont take much from it either way. Other than I say - go get guys who can shoot well. Dont get guys who are average and hope Zion elevates them to good. Josh Hart will stay Josh Hart whether he is playing off Point Zion or off of Point Ish Smith

[HornetGuru]

No difference in open/wide open. Checked all those as well.

Gotcha

[MichaelMcNamara]

I dont think Zion creates more open looks than when he is off because, if you think about it, you MUST have a center on the court when Zion is on the court to have any chance of having a solid defense/rebounding.

So, now there are two non shooters on the court. Easy to help off guys to go run at shooters and/or you just double Zion with the guy covering the center. If you could get a big wing who could protect the rim and/or rebound at an elite level (or Zion starts to do either of those things), then he can get guys more open looks because you can have 5 out in that situation

[KoMikaera]

I like the approach of educated gamble.

I wouldn't mind Lonzo on my list. If he's already borderline great on catch and shoot that's something, if he could improve that by had work maybe his next step is to improve off the dribble.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I think that the things that Lonzo does well as easily replaced by bargain guys. You are right - if he shoots up drastically on the things he does poorly, he pays off and outperforms the next contract.

But I havent even seen glimpses of those things improving. We say his shot got drastically better, but he was an efficient catch and shoot guy in college. That skill didnt go from an F to a B. It was always there. He is bad off the dribble pull up, bad in the half court in general, bad at finishing in the lane. I'd rather pay a guy who was good at those things at some point, but had injuries or a bad fit, etc than bet on a guy to develop those things all of a sudden

[Silver Nail]

I would try 2 deals, LOVE for adams and bledsoe, Also, ARCIDIACONO and MARKKANEN for lonzo. whatever draft picks reasonable.

[tdcreator]

I like Kemba especially if we get assets back like Robert Williams and potentially a first. I?d start both until better options are either drafted or develop. Thinking about Kira and Hayes who could develop and maybe their second contract could be manageable if it takes them a while to beat out Kemba and Williams.

Same for Beasley, he could start or be a super 6th man if NAW develops.

Otto Porter would be awesome if medicals checkout and price is right. Just need a good shooting big and Portia has been mentioned lately

Kemba, Kira
Beasley, NAW
BI, Porter
Zion, Portis
Williams, Hayes

Not taking into account any draft picks or Lonzo, Hart decisions.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I would try 2 deals, LOVE for adams and bledsoe, Also, ARCIDIACONO and MARKKANEN for lonzo. whatever draft picks reasonable.

But now you have just added more catch and shoot guys, decent ones - not even great. At a high price tag, bringing no defense. You have added skills that I showed are amongst the easiest to get for cheap and paid highly for them while detracting from areas that are harder to find for cheap

[As I See It]

There's a guy with a connection to New Orleans who shot over 40% from three this year on 3.8 per game who is a free agent this year. I would take him in second, but I might be the only one in here who would.

[new city champ]

But now you have just added more catch and shoot guys, decent ones - not even great. At a high price tag, bringing no defense. You have added skills that I showed are amongst the easiest to get for cheap and paid highly for them while detracting from areas that are harder to find for cheap

For comparison, where are some of the elite guys on hitting 3s off the dribble, like Curry, Lillard, Harden, Kryrie, Tatum, Durant, etc..?.Know they aren't available, but interested to see what the bell curve looks like including top guys...

[MichaelMcNamara]

For comparison, where are some of the elite guys on hitting 3s off the dribble, like Curry, Lillard, Harden, Kryrie, Tatum, Durant, etc..?.Know they aren't available, but interested to see what the bell curve looks like including top guys...

The ELITE high level, high volume guys are in the low 40s. Steph was 40.9 percent. Conley was the best of all the higher volume guys at 41.5%. A few guys were around 39 (Zach Lavine, Jamal Murray). Lillard was 37.1% but was almost 45% in clutch moments

There were some medium volume guys who were really good. Durant was 46.1% but only took 2.2 per game. Middleton was 41.2 but at just 2.6 per game.

As for guys who had similar volumes as BI and Lonzo, Jaylen Brown took the same amount and shot equally bad. Ingles was on the other end, similar volume but shot 41.2%. Of the guys that took as many as BI or more, the only guys who shot worse were John Wall, Oladipo, and Devonte Graham. Lonzo is in the bottom 10% of guys who shot 2 or more per game too.

[MichaelMcNamara]

And in case folks were wondering, Lonzo and BI were bad the year before too. Lonzo showed no improvement in this area, where Ingram signicantly raised his volume and had a minor uptick in percentage. He almost doubled the number he took this year from the previous year and went up to slightly over 30% (up from 27.9%) - so there is hope as he takes more and gets more comfortable.

[Eman5805]

Malik Beasley...damn. He's gonna get serious feta, isn't he?

[luckyman]

Players that can create off the dribble anywhere on the floor are more valuable than a player that has good numbers pulling up from 25 ft+. Again, 3 level iso creators are what this league revolves around. They are the ones that actually warp a defense and make their teammates better through kick out opportunities. Hell Zion did this and he doesn't even shoot 3s.

Phoenix only has Chris Paul who shot only 2.6 attempts per game at 37.3%. Booker only shot 30.8% on 2.8 attempts. So Chris Paul is it. They have no one else. But again, Booker is a 3 level creator. So they dont need anyone else.

The best way to look at this would be eFG% or TS% to capture mid range/at the rim on a minimum number of attempts. That way you dont give so much weight to a player that can simply be chased off the line if they don't get solid screen help. There you can understand why Ingram was still able to warp defenses as much as he did (46.9% eFG).

These players obviously cost a lot. I'd use FA and trades to target c&s guys on short cheap contracts. Preferably those that at least show some ability to put the ball on the floor. But use the draft to target these 3 level creators. Which is why I'm so high on Davion (and Duarte to a lesser degree) outside of the players at the top of the draft (Suggs, Green, Cunningham). If anything, I try to make a move to get into the top 4 to draft one of those guys.

[HornetGuru]

Trade the farm for KAT?

[MichaelMcNamara]

Trade the farm for KAT?

I personally wouldnt UNLESS you still have enough left to get complimentary pieces. Like, my best offer would be:

Ingram, Bledsoe, Adams plus 3 picks for KAT, Beasley, Reid, and Okogie

Then, I gotta trade the rest of the stash for a 2-way wing like OG (Hart S&T plus a boatload of picks)

Lonzo-Beasley-OG-Zion-KAT

with a deep bench of Kira, NAW, Okogie, Marshall, Didi, Hayes, and Naz Reid. That team I would be excited about and would give up Ingram and 7 picks for. Still got tons of youth, even without any future picks

[Freyfamilyreuni]

Lonzo shoots 37.9% with Zion on the court, 37.6% when he is off. No difference

I dont believe in all this gravity stuff. A guy shoots how he shoots for the most part. Zion isnt going to make guys much better - just like Fred Vinson doesnt.

In fact, Lonzo's volume is pretty much the same both with Zion on and Zion off (5.8 attempts per 23 mins when Zion is off. 6 per 22.5 wins when he is on)

Almost no difference in Lonzo. Ingram actually shoots better without Zion (40 percent vs 37 percent). Again, similar volume.

Zion wont make guys better. We have to get the guys who are already good. Both off the dribble and on the catch

Because defenses don't play Lonzo any differently when Zion is on the floor or when BI is on the floor. They always help off of Lonzo to either double, or triple, or quadruple Zion or BI. Despite his percentage in catch and shoot threes. Probably because Lonzo is just as likely to go 0 and 8 while completely left alone as he is to go 8 and 0.

BI's percentage goes up when Zion's off the floor, because BI has more space to attack the basket and get easier buckets. Despite the fact that BI seems to be a decent catch and shooter, he rarely does it. He's more comfortable dribbling to certain spots and taking a mid range shot. Zion's presence gets in the way of that.

As for your assertion that Zion doesn't make people better, that's ridiculous. If he was surrounded by shooters who could consistently hit open 3's then you would see how much better he could make players. You could simply watch how many players get open three point shots when he's on the court and dishes off to them, only to brick the shots. So you can't really argue when Zion attacks four guys at the basket. That's still a much more effecient way of scoring than dishing out to our bricklaying guards.

[HornetGuru]

I personally wouldnt UNLESS you still have enough left to get complimentary pieces. Like, my best offer would be:

Ingram, Bledsoe, Adams plus 3 picks for KAT, Beasley, Reid, and Okogie

Then, I gotta trade the rest of the stash for a 2-way wing like OG (Hart S&T plus a boatload of picks)

Lonzo-Beasley-OG-Zion-KAT

with a deep bench of Kira, NAW, Okogie, Marshall, Didi, Hayes, and Naz Reid. That team I would be excited about and would give up Ingram and 7 picks for. Still got tons of youth, even without any future picks

Yeah not gonna lie, that lineup would be devastating

[fullcourtpress]

I dont think Zion creates more open looks than when he is off because, if you think about it, you MUST have a center on the court when Zion is on the court to have any chance of having a solid defense/rebounding.

So, now there are two non shooters on the court. Easy to help off guys to go run at shooters and/or you just double Zion with the guy covering the center. If you could get a big wing who could protect the rim and/or rebound at an elite level (or Zion starts to do either of those things), then he can get guys more open looks because you can have 5 out in that situation

People don't seem to consider this enough. What's the point of having a driving, wrecking ball at PG when we have a Steven Adams in there who elicits the opponents to clog the lane. At the end of games last year we turned the ball over way too many times due to this (plus the fact that even our shooters weren't too scary for the opp0nents)

Yes. It's evident we need a rim protector that can shoot. Since they're like unicorns we must understand that in order to find one we must understand that these traits might be all he brings to the table. Another rout would be to simply go long everywhere for the best post defense is ball pressure

Also what's the use of having another guy on the court who is the size of a PG like Bledsoe, Davion Mitchell or even Kira Lewis because that just gives the opponents a player for their PG to guard defensively.

Our opponents are going to be in trouble if we roll out a lineup of 6'5' guys and up who can move and guard multiple positions. Kinda like the last Pistons team to win it all. Prince and Hamilton were ideal wings for a large PG like Billups.

[luckyman]

People don't seem to consider this enough. What's the point of having a driving, wrecking ball at PG when we have a Steven Adams in there who elicits the opponents to clog the lane. At the end of games last year we turned the ball over way too many times due to this (plus the fact that even our shooters weren't too scary for the opp0nents)

Yes. It's evident we need a rim protector that can shoot. Since they're like unicorns we must understand that in order to find one we must understand that these traits might be all he brings to the table. Another rout would be to simply go long everywhere for the best post defense is ball pressure

Also what's the use of having another guy on the court who is the size of a PG like Bledsoe, Davion Mitchell or even Kira Lewis because that just gives the opponents a player for their PG to guard defensively.

Our opponents are going to be in trouble if we roll out a lineup of 6'5' guys and up who can move and guard multiple positions. Kinda like the last Pistons team to win it all. Prince and Hamilton were ideal wings for a large PG like Billups.

Height doesn't guard multiple positions. Players guard multiple positions. You have to evaluate the skill level of each individual player. You can roll out a bunch of 6'5" guys with 7'3" wingspans that get eaten alive.