2021 NBA PLAYOFFS THREAD

[luckyman]

If anybody actually paid attention to Ja and Zion all year long, this debate where one played with passion as a "alpha" while the the other didn't seems strange.

Zion took on a heavier offensive load and improved most of his metrics across the board. And show intangible "passion" nightly.

Ja seemed to take a lot of nights off, and pretty much regressed (or was stagnant) across the board. His shooting got worse including 73% from the line, down from 78% last year.

He woke up a bit towards the end of the year and the playoffs, but then you'd be guilty of recency bias no?

[As I See It]

But with all due respect, cats in here are always wrong.

No way in a million years is Ja better than Zion.

Cats always talking intangibles. That?s a college/pre NBA scouting thing. Those things at the core do not stick to the wall. I?ve seen ?lazy? players become top 5. I?ve seen hard working hard nosers become your lifetime pass around role player.

The main Achilles on this board that I have noticed is cats talk in the moment. Can never truly access based on future. Looking at 20-22 year olds and making judgements and then get exposed once they turn the corner.

If you are ?Thising!? on some Ja vs Zion when Zions 20 years old doing what he?s doing, it tells me everything I need to know.

So long as it's considered a team game, during the first two seasons of their respective careers, there is no doubt that one has delivered and one has not (and it's measurable). One has upped his game, and the games of his teammates, to the point where he has led his perennial lottery team into the playoffs in year two of a 'rebuild'. The other, has missed considerable time in each of his first two seasons of a 'rebuild' due to injury, and has seen his team (which is arguably more star-studded) underperform down the stretch in two consecutive seasons, when the playoffs were clearly within its grasp.

How it plays out over their respective careers is a whole other issue, but so far as the first two 'rounds' of their head to head careers are concerned, the card clearly has Ja ahead on points.

So try again.

[MichaelMcNamara]

If anybody actually paid attention to Ja and Zion all year long, this debate where one played with passion as a "alpha" while the the other didn't seems strange.

Zion took on a heavier offensive load and improved most of his metrics across the board. And show intangible "passion" nightly.

Ja seemed to take a lot of nights off, and pretty much regressed (or was stagnant) across the board. His shooting got worse including 73% from the line, down from 78% last year.

He woke up a bit towards the end of the year and the playoffs, but then you'd be guilty of recency bias no?

Your evidence for Ja regressing on an intangibles level is....tangibles?

Admit you didnt watch 10 Grizz games all year. Its okay, other than Grizz fans, most didnt. But dont pretend you watched 70 Ja games and 70 Zion games and studied them equally.

Zion plays hard, no doubt. When did you ever see him lead a huddle? Pull a guy aside during someone shooting free throws to talk about a strategy? Talk, like...at all?

Again, am I saying he will never do that? No. But it would be lying if we said Ja and Zion did that equally currently. I hope, even more than I hope he develops an outside shot, that Zion develops that. But his first two years of leadership remind me far more of AD than CP3's first two years

[Wowowowow]

So long as it's considered a team game, during the first two seasons of their respective careers, there is no doubt that one has delivered and one has not (and it's measurable). One has upped his game, and the games of his teammates, to the point where he has led his perennial lottery team into the playoffs in year two of a 'rebuild'. The other, has missed considerable time in each of his first two seasons of a 'rebuild' due to injury, and has seen his team (which is arguably more star-studded) underperform down the stretch in two consecutive seasons, when the playoffs were clearly within its grasp.

How it plays out over their respective careers is a whole other issue, but so far as the first two 'rounds' of their head to head careers are concerned, the card clearly has Ja ahead on points.

So try again.

But it....doesn?t.

You?re measuring team success on who the better player is and then like I said, using useless ?intangibles? that don?t stick to any wall in the room.

Damian Lillard is considered the greatest teammate. Born leader. Means NOTHING! He?s still getting kicked out in the first round while eating Big Macs and crying in girlfriends arms Embiid is in the 2nd round this season.

You?re putting stock on frivolous stuff...stuff that has shown at an elite NBA level where professionals can do things with God given talent can dominate.

That?s what matters to me. Is the guy dominant at 20? Then Forget about it!

If your only exit to whatever pedestal you are arguing on is injuries, then so be it. You can say that about any player vs player argument.

But if you are trying to convince anyone with sense that a 20 year old guy who just broke a record Kevin McHale did in the prime of his career is less than Ja Morant (who in his own right is a stud)...you are the one that needs to try again.

I need to read some of your other stuff to understand just what I?m dealing with.

[Wowowowow]

Your evidence for Ja regressing on an intangibles level is....tangibles?

Admit you didnt watch 10 Grizz games all year. Its okay, other than Grizz fans, most didnt. But dont pretend you watched 70 Ja games and 70 Zion games and studied them equally.

Zion plays hard, no doubt. When did you ever see him lead a huddle? Pull a guy aside during someone shooting free throws to talk about a strategy? Talk, like...at all?

Again, am I saying he will never do that? No. But it would be lying if we said Ja and Zion did that equally currently. I hope, even more than I hope he develops an outside shot, that Zion develops that. But his first two years of leadership remind me far more of AD than CP3's first two years

Frivolous stuff at a NBA level. Go watch college if that’s what you are evaluating players on. This is the pros man. Talent and God given ability (see Kyrie) is just as important if not more than huddling up to look good for the cameras like it’s a Mighty Ducks Movie.

[luigi modelo]

But it....doesn?t.

You?re measuring team success on who the better player is and then like I said, using useless ?intangibles? that don?t stick to any wall in the room.

Damian Lillard is considered the greatest teammate. Born leader. Means NOTHING! He?s still getting kicked out in the first round while eating Big Macs and crying in girlfriends arms Embiid is in the 2nd round this season.

You?re putting stock on frivolous stuff...stuff that has shown at an elite NBA level where professionals can do things with God given talent can dominate.

That?s what matters to me. Is the guy dominant at 20? Then Forget about it!

If your only exit to whatever pedestal you are arguing on is injuries, then so be it. You can say that about any player vs player argument.

But if you are trying to convince anyone with sense that a 20 year old guy who just broke a record Kevin McHale did in the prime of his career is less than Ja Morant (who in his own right is a stud)...you are the one that needs to try again.

I need to read some of your other stuff to understand just what I?m dealing with.

you don't need to read other stuff. You've gotten the gist

[MichaelMcNamara]

Frivolous stuff at a NBA level. Go watch college if that’s what you are evaluating players on. This is the pros man. Talent and God given ability (see Kyrie) is just as important if not more than huddling up to look good for the cameras like it’s a Mighty Ducks Movie.

You act like its one or the other. Its an attribute, and no attribute is the be all, end all. You are acting like someone is saying "Give me the C guy with A intangibles over the A guy with C intangibles"

NOBODY said that, so dont create a strawman to whoop up on. Nobody said Ja is more talented than Zion. But if you dont wish Zion showed more of the heart, leadership, and communication that Ja does, then I think you are lying to yourself. The easiest thing to do to fight bias is to flip it -- if Zion communicated, led, and acted like Ja, would you want him to change it....at all? Of course not, you guys would love him even 20% more.

Its okay for Ja to have one or two categories better than Zion. Admitting it wont mean that Zion is a bust. Calm down a tad

[MichaelMcNamara]

Here...lets try this a different way to try to get at what I am asking without people thinking its a bash Zion thread

Take the top player off whatever team you want and insert what you think Zion will be in his prime. Who would be the best supporting cast fit for him? Thats all I am trying to ask - What do you think his skill set will realistically evolve into and what does the supporting cast look like for that skill set?

[Wowowowow]

You act like its one or the other. Its an attribute, and no attribute is the be all, end all. You are acting like someone is saying "Give me the C guy with A intangibles over the A guy with C intangibles"

NOBODY said that, so dont create a strawman to whoop up on. Nobody said Ja is more talented than Zion. But if you dont wish Zion showed more of the heart, leadership, and communication that Ja does, then I think you are lying to yourself. The easiest thing to do to fight bias is to flip it -- if Zion communicated, led, and acted like Ja, would you want him to change it....at all? Of course not, you guys would love him even 20% more.

Its okay for Ja to have one or two categories better than Zion. Admitting it wont mean that Zion is a bust. Calm down a tad

I?m not trying to build a strawman, snowman, or whatever kind of man. I?m flat out saying if you?re gassing huddling up at the professional level,, you?re just telling me you like bragging about owning a lighter in hell.

Kobe when he came into the league was known as selfish, reclusive to his teammates, etc.. Look at his career. That stuff means nothing at the professional level.

I dont care about a bash Zion. I would say this about any player. But I would hope it makes sense. None of these make sense to me on a stick to the wall level.

[Wowowowow]

Here...lets try this a different way to try to get at what I am asking without people thinking its a bash Zion thread

Take the top player off whatever team you want and insert what you think Zion will be in his prime. Who would be the best supporting cast fit for him? Thats all I am trying to ask - What do you think his skill set will realistically evolve into and what does the supporting cast look like for that skill set?

We don’t know what Zion will be in his prime. He looks like he’s Shaq dominance that can shoot free throws. In his prime with that recipe, it’s not going to be about who his teammates are but what players have to team up to weather that kind of storm.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Shaq controlled the lane on defense too. Was a monster on the defensive glass. Also played in a totally different era. If you shrunk Shaq and made him a liability on defense and transported him to 2021, do you think he would win titles?

[As I See It]

You better re-think "Shaq dominance that can shoot free throws". Sorry, that's a physical impossibility.

Next??

[Wowowowow]

You better re-think "Shaq dominance that can shoot free throws". Sorry, that's a physical impossibility.

Next??

My very first post on this board I caught heat from Pelicandea. I was new, telling some first hand knowledge I?ve had from knowing what people thought of David Griffen. Over the 2 seasons, I realized Trajan was more of the guy doing the scouting dirty work and I started to say ?ok, he?s doing the right stuff tho. Hiring Nelson, keeping Vinson in the mix, Tspoon etc?

Over that time that I was reading, I can see that the guy Pelicandae - even if he blasted my opinion - he was good resource.

Im reading this board after taking a break due to corona circumstances. Reading your drivel, I realize cat ain?t so bad. Pathetic teenage ?Next!? crap. Not even worth the response.

I know you?ll be wrong in a year or 2...not because Zion is freakin 20 years old putting up 27 and 61% and 6-6 grabbing 7-8 boards (when logically in a positionless sport these days no one is dissing a 6-8 6-9 player grabbing 8 boards)...but everything you?re hanging your hat on is fluff that doesn?t stick to the wall. Lillard is winning help ya friend off the ground awards but getting rocked in the first rounds. Lebron is not running up the floor on defense but still we know he could win a ring again next season if the rosters right, and AD was a perennial loser and in one season won a ring. You are hanging your hat on nothing you can really grasp.

So when a 20 year old 27 on 61% player finally ties everything together, come back to this post and read it and realize I knew you didn?t know ball from the jump.

[As I See It]

My very first post on this board I caught heat from Pelicandea. I was new, telling some first hand knowledge I?ve had from knowing what people thought of David Griffen. Over the 2 seasons, I realized Trajan was more of the guy doing the scouting dirty work and I started to say ?ok, he?s doing the right stuff tho. Hiring Nelson, keeping Vinson in the mix, Tspoon etc?

Over that time that I was reading, I can see that the guy Pelicandae - even if he blasted my opinion - he was good resource.

Im reading this board after taking a break due to corona circumstances. Reading your drivel, I realize cat ain?t so bad. Pathetic teenage ?Next!? crap. Not even worth the response.

I know you?ll be wrong in a year or 2...not because Zion is freakin 20 years old putting up 27 and 61% and 6-6 grabbing 7-8 boards (when logically in a positionless sport these days no one is dissing a 6-8 6-9 player grabbing 8 boards)...but everything you?re hanging your hat on is fluff that doesn?t stick to the wall. Lillard is winning help ya friend off the ground awards but getting rocked in the first rounds. Lebron is not running up the floor on defense but still we know he could win a ring again next season if the rosters right, and AD was a perennial loser and in one season won a ring. You are hanging your hat on nothing you can really grasp.

So when a 20 year old 27 on 61% player finally ties everything together, come back to this post and read it and realize I knew you didn?t know ball from the jump.

Ask you doctor if Alprazolam would help. You will need a prescription as it is not an OTC drug.

[13 - 3]

[13 - 3]

I’ll call the Nets security guards if y’all don’t knock it off

[AusPel]

Lol

[13 - 3]

Straight up Monty Williams team looks unstoppable.

[13 - 3]

Shout out to ESPN for noting all this in 2 years for PHX.

[13 - 3]

Suns crushing Denver D like it is nothing. Imagine what they(Suns)can do to the Nets D.

[13 - 3]

Has to be one of the best 4th quarter players of all time https://t.co/56xo7v7KEh

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) June 12, 2021

[13 - 3]

Smfh

— Damian Lillard (@Dame_Lillard) June 12, 2021

[Pelicanidae]

2nd round going pretty expectedly, tbh.

Denver has the best player in the series but with no Murray and poor shooting from MPJ combined with having to play someone like MPJ in a series against guys who can actually take advantage of bad defenders (CP3, Booker, for example) means that the Nuggets just don't have what it takes.

Meanwhile, Budenholzer refuses to make even a single adjustment for what the Nets are bringing (fitting his long track record of being a Regular Season Coach Only) and their entire offense is unfit to attack where the Nets are weak.

[Funcrusher]

Shaq controlled the lane on defense too. Was a monster on the defensive glass. Also played in a totally different era. If you shrunk Shaq and made him a liability on defense and transported him to 2021, do you think he would win titles?

Mac's weird fascination with nitpicking Zion at every turn while alternately propping up Ja as much as he can is assuredly one of the weirdest aspects of Mac's persona. Zion's not perfect (no player is) but he's better than Ja and that's pretty much all that matters in this comparison. I have no problem with scrutinizing our star players, but how many times are you going to ask essentially the same question (would you guys still take Zion over Ja?, how would Zion/Ja do in Memphi/NO?, what aspects of the game is Zion better at than Ja?, etc.) before you finally just say you'd rather have Ja?

And for a so called "expert," who applies an "analytical, unbiased lens" to his team, 99% of the reasoning behind your contrarian stances hinge on emotional narratives rather any empirical, tangible evidence. The implication that Shaq wouldn't dominate in this era because he played in a different one is wrong, the implication that Zion is a liability on defense is wrong, the implication that you can't win titles with a player like Zion is wrong on so many levels (not because Zion is good or bad enough, but rather their is nothing about his archetype as a player that should leave any one to believe that it would be impossible to win a ring with him as the hypothetical best player). Honestly dude, what are you providing beyond the occasional inside scoop that I can't just get from Steven A. Smith or Kendrick Perikins?

[Funcrusher]

I think Zion can develop a pull-up and floater because his handle is good enough for him to drive and stop if need be. The question is how fluid will the jumper be off the dribble and can he show enough consistency to either punish defenses or force them to second guess goal hanging. I think he has a good touch, and he has even shown range from the 3 point line. I do think he will add it. Question is when

I know you guys think Zion will add a floater/pull-up game in the future, and given how good his touch is I can certainly see it, but I legitimately think we're all missing the forest for the trees by focusing on that. To me, while he's in his athletic prime, he doesn't need a jumper, and shouldn't focus on getting a jumper at the expense of the rest of his game. Even if it's just been the regular season, he's already been unstoppable as a scorer in a way guys like Giannis simply haven't, even (for the most part) at the end of games, where he statistically has been fairly clutch, contrary to the narrative someone like Mac would like to uphold