Clipppers had a timeout remaining too.lol
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Clipppers had a timeout remaining too.lol
Did they do that thing where refs stop calling fouls on him when he gets to 5.Originally Posted by 13 - 3
Not a foul on that final play. Gosh if the Pelicans played defense like that we may actually be good.
Rose actually got a mvp vote. Good for him.
Full MVP balloting results: Jokic gets 91 first-place votes; Curry next with five. pic.twitter.com/qqWr6aG9BN
— Marc Stein (@TheSteinLine) June 8, 2021
I didnt see anything you said previously as argumentative or far-fetched, but then you went and said Ja has some outside game and lost me. Teams intentionally sag WAAAYY off him to entice him to shoot the three and he still shoots a bad percentage(30%). That's why I think Cade is a better prospect coming out than Ja. Cade is the better shooter and defender, two things that would be much more valuable for our roster. I know you've said you like Ja more than Cade, but Ja's shot has a ways to go.
Who said Ja vs Cade? It was Ja vs Zion. And yes, Ja at least shoots them. And least has games, like the play in vs GS where he makes them and helps win the game as a result. I know he will at least be Westbrook or Jimmy from deep - where he at least takes them and can hit some and who knows, maybe gets better. Right now, Zion is more Ben Simmons, and he might evolve into much more but how do I know what he will be? Why I said Zion is the better talent but I can see the argument for Ja being easier to build around. I dont know how Cade got dragged into this
@mcnamara247
What a weird comment to make, frankly.
Zion's already shown far more signs of willingness than Simmons to shoot; he's taken more 3s in 85 games than Simmons has taken in 275 games, and has shown clear signs during that time of looking to integrate some short midrange as well. It's hardly high volume, sure, but to compare it to Simmons who seems almost pathologically scared to shoot the 3, it's more than a bit weird.
As for praising Ja because at least he might be like Westbrook or Jimmy (where he at least takes them), that's kind of the reverse of how those guys - Westbrook in particular - are actually thought of. People (including me) wish Westbrook would shoot less; the fact that he would take them is usually a bad thing. He sucks at them, he's always sucked at them, and while it's fair to say he occasionally hits them and wins a game there are far more games which he sinks due to awful shot selection and lack of understanding of his own limits. Similarly, Butler is another name who probably just shouldn't take the threes - he shoots sub 25% from 3 and has done for consecutive years now. The distinction between him and Westbrook is that Butler seems to know he shouldn't take them in most circumstances and has seen his 3ptR drop precipitously over the last few years, going from almost .350 in his later Chicago years to less than half that rate over the last few.
If that's all you need to be classed as ''at least taking them'' then Zion should just chuck now because he can probably hit 25% too, which seems to be your threshold for utility.
Basketball.
I dont understand how you guys dont acknowledge that Zion is the outlier of all outliers and come back with, "He shoots more jumpers than Simmons" as if he isnt closer to Ben Simmons than he is every other guy. He took 23 shots between from 10 feet out. Total. Is that more than Simmons? Sure...barely. Okay, now name anybody else in the top 40 scorers who shot less jumpers (don't waste your time, you wont find one)
Again, I acknowledge that maybe he will one day start shooting them. But I ask you guys endlessly what you expect his 2nd or 3rd level scoring will look like and nobody can give me an answer. They just say he will get better or that at least he shoots more than Ben Simmons. Then the conversation just dies. I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Why is it so hard for someone to give their thoughts on what they think his 2nd and 3rd level scoring might look like. Like.....why is that so hard to say but you can type paragraphs about how he isnt this or that, and this guy or that guy is worse off for taking jump shots at low efficiency?
I've said numerous times that I think peak Zion will be a roughly 35% 3pt shooter on 2 or 3 a game. So sort of mid-career Blake Griffin, ish, in terms of gravity (Blake was more like 5 a game at the end of his Clips tenure, but you get the general idea). There's no conversation dying, at least not with me; I'm perfectly happy to predict that. Maybe he doesn't ever get there, maybe he exceeds it, but that's been my evaluation of where he could and should be over the next few years and I made that prediction before he even got drafted.
I just think that saying ''oh he's like Ben Simmons'' when, as mentioned, he's shown far more willingness to experiment with non-rim attempts than Simmons has despite far far far far fewer games, is very mildly disingenuous. As is saying ''oh well, that's still only X amount of shots'' when the comment immediately prior to yours literally says that it's hardly high volume and that the distinction between him and Simmons isn't necessarily that Zion shoots a million 3s and Simmons doesn't - which isn't true - but rather that Simmons seems almost scared of taking 3s whereas Zion simply chooses better options because he's a better self-creator in the half court and therefore isn't forced into the position where a 3 is the only realistic shot as often.
Percentage and even attempts is a small part of the story. How many are created and/or off the bounce vs assisted? And if few to none will be off the bounce, how many #1 options dont have that in their bag? I can think of two - Jokic and Embiid and both those guys play center. The roster creation issue with Zion is that if he basically plays like a center on offense (with regard to where he shoots from), then you need to get a center who plays more like a guard or wing on offense but somehow can protect the rim too.
I dont see a world in which the Pels turn into a legit contender if Zion takes 2 or 3 assisted three's per game and very few off the bounce mid rangers as well. He has to be a 3 level off the bounce threat to be a real #1 option on a great team IMO. And I have never said he wont get there, I am just asking people for their expectations on what he will be. And saying number of 3's taken and a percentage is not painting a full picture of who he is on those levels. Ibaka could catch and shoot from 16 or from deep. And might have a higher percentage than some guys who are much more of a "threat" to the defense because other guys can go create their own 16 footer or make an off the dribble 3. So, you look at percentages and you might say Ibaka is a better perimeter threat than Ja. But to me, Ja is much more of a threat and its not close because he goes and creates his looks. Thats the depth of the 2nd and 3rd level scorer convo I am trying to have and see what you guys think.
I am not trying to be confrontational here or pessimistic - I am trying to have a real conversation and it feels like people are defensive of Zion because he is our guy. And yes he is a great scorer with an often unstoppable move.
But if we cant at least agree that SO FAR he has been a non threat from the 2nd or 3rd level and that he has actually had so few attempts that it is impossible to project what he will be from those levels, then I dont know what the point of a message board is. THAT should be a given. The debate should be about where we think he will be long term on those levels and our arguments for why. And then based on our best guesses, how you build around that type of guy
Well of course self-creation is highly valuable and being able to shoot off the dribble is more of a thing than just being a standstill catch guy. Nobody would deny that, I don't think. But I do think it's telling that your initial question was focused around what that 'looks like' and getting annoyed that 'the conversation just dies' and then the first time you get a response that actually addresses the question you're walking it back a little into the whole ''I'm not trying to be confrontational, people are just being defensive' position. It feels, honestly, like you're the one being a bit defensive; it's all fire and brimstone until you get a response and then suddenly you just want a rational conversation.
In any case, Blake is still my go-to comparison as a shooter. I think his pathway is fairly instructive for the path that Zion could (and again, I think, should) walk.
Blake's first season, he had a 3ptR of .017. His second season, .016, then .026 and .032. In 3 of those 4 seasons, 100% of his 3s were assisted, it wasn't until his fourth season that he began self creating some of these attempts which were, yes, very low volume.
It was on his second contract that the shooting began to take off in terms of volume, percentage, and self-creation. At the age of 27, Blake had his first season taking more than 1 per game; he shot 34% on 1.9 per game, and more than 90% were assisted. The next year, he took 5.6 per game, shot 34%, and only 70% of them were assisted. Since then, Blake has had a 3ptR of at least .300 every season, has averaged about 34% from 3 over that span, with 36.5% of those attempts being self created, so a little over 1/3rd being non-assisted.
Now obviously, Blake entered the league older than Zion did and before the era of Ultimate Shooting really took off, so I expect Zion will reach that level before the age of 27, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was still on his second contract. For Zion, that's going to be around the age of 23 or 24, realistically. I think that's a fairly achievable, realistic comparison for Zion's upside as a shooter. Roughly 3 attempts a game, roughly 35% on average, and probably about 30% of those self-created. You then get the question of how efficient do those self-created 3s have to be in comparison to his c&s threes in order to be worth it, and the answer to that is I don't really know. I'd assume about 33% as the floor, because that's about 1.00 point per shot which is fairly league standard offense, but you seem to think Westbrook and Butler's sub-30% shooting has value just by virtue of existing so maybe you think it could be lower.
Kudos to Shaq and TNT for noting that the Suns rebuild has only been 2 years
Also thank you Reggie Miller for also noting the 2 year rebuild during the game
Kudos to some of the most infamously terrible excuses for ''analysts'' in the sport for agreeing with 13-3's egregiously silly take. All you need now is a Chris Webber endorsement.
Facts
https://www.si.com/nba/2021/05/24/da...nes-chris-paul
You thirsty for more?
https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2...d-its-glorious
Lol how is it a 2 year rebuild? 3 of their 4 most important players were already on the roster.
Denver managed to get through the first round because, as we all know, Portland are enormous frauds, but the Suns are not that. No Murray, Barton still not at his best, CP3 coming back from that first round injury (CP3 has 26 assists and 1 turnover in the 2 games vs Denver so far) and relatively poor play from guys like MPJ so far - turnstile defense, 2/9 shooting from 3 tonight, 3/13 overall - it's just not going to work for Denver.
Suns rolling now.
Don't even try. He's committed to the idea that it's only 2 years because if he assumes that, then he can critique our rebuild for being comparatively slow.
So many people have tried to explain to him that if you miss the playoffs for a decade straight, and the centrepiece of your rebuild was drafted 6 years ago, you can't be in a 2 year rebuild, and he's just determined that their rebuild started with Monty. It makes no sense, it ignores multiple rebuilding seasons from them, it totally dismisses the first 4 years of Booker's career and the first one of Ayton's and Bridges', but it makes him happy so you can't take it from him.
Yeah, I did gear something about the Suns shutting down their basketball operation for the other nine years since 2009/10, ergo a two year rebuild. LMAO!!!
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/3...-deandre-ayton
Also remember we traded for Adams instead of Chris Paul
https://sircharlesincharge.com/2021/...erate-process/
Phoenix breathing sign of relief they passed on Griffin 2 years ago. Lol
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