Quite colorful, Basketball Gugu!!Originally Posted by Taker597
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Quite colorful, Basketball Gugu!!
As do I.
If Chris Paul's shoulder holds up, CP3 might finally get his title.
Phoenix can handle Brooklyn.
The Bucks are a prime example of what awaits a paint-centric superstar in today?s league. I expect Zion to add a bit more to his repertoire, but this is why we need more dynamic scoring from him or at the very least spacing around him. Fingers crossed.
Monty too
Yeah I can see them kicking him to curb for Jason Kidd
It wasn't just Giannis tho... the whole team built houses in Brooklyn with all the bricks they were shooting. This is a shot making league if you can't make shots... you're gonna get boat-raced like the Bucks.
You made my point. Giannis is limited so he relies on others to space for him to allow him to take over games, and as I elaborated in my post Zion needs to add more to his game or we need more dynamic scoring/spacing.
This is true for every playerthough, regardless of their play style. Literally every team needs more than one guy who can create offense, either for themselves or others. Regardless of whether they're paint or perimeter based.
Go back and watch the Raptors/Warriors Finals. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, but because none of his team mates could use the space he created for them effectively and hit the shots they got, the Warriors lost. Curry averaged 30/5/6 in that series, taking 11 threes a night, and the Raptors won. Nobody else stepped up to give him anything.
If you back to game 1 of this series, Nets/Bucks, Khris Middleton (a guy who was less than 1% away from the 50/40/90 club last year, and shot 47/41/89 this year) shot 6/23 from the floor and 0/5 from 3. If he even has just an average game for him, or even just a slightly bad game, and shoots low 40s in percentage instead of low 26%, and hits two threes. What happens then? Well, Bucks win, is what happens.
Everyone needs teammates that step up. If you don't have them, it doesn't matter if you're at the rim or at 30 feet, you're not winning long playoff series against good teams which do have their roleplayers step up.
Case in point, lets go back to game 1 Nets/Bucks; neither Kyrie nor Durant had particularly good games! Kyrie shot 42% from the floor and 27% from 3, Durant went 1/4 from 3 and nearly fouled out and Harden didn't even play. How did they win? Well, Mike James gave them 12/7 off the bench on 46% shooting and 50% from 3, Joe Harris went 5/9 from deep and 2/3 from 2, and Blake Griffin went for 18/14/3 on 54/44 splits. They got their 4th, 5th, and 6th options giving them something. That let them survive a mediocre-to-poor game from their perimeter-centric superstars. Bucks haven't had that yet.
Basketball.
In both games the Bucks shot below 30 percent from 3. The Nets never shot below 37 percent in either game. And the Nets took a higher volume, so whilst the stars weren’t red hot in either game the team picked up the slack from downtown. That is the difference. As AD says, it is the ultimate equalizer and the Bucks don’t have an answer if Brooklyn keeps hitting.
And I think we are on the same page, but yeah, Zion definitely needs to add some other element or he could face the Giannis treatment.
Last edited by JJackisangry; 06-08-2021 at 11:42 AM.
There is no debate that Zion will have to add to his game -- the questions are: How much is realistic, based on what we have seen and NBA history? Like, there is no way he becomes Steph. But is Russell Westbrook realistic? Or is that too low a bar and maybe its more Paul Pierce where he can get to spots in mid range and kill teams.
And then based on the realistic growth of his offensive game, how good would the other player have to be to compliment him? As we see for Giannis, if he tops out at that, you need far better than good, but not great 20ppg scorers.
@mcnamara247
No matter how good he is doing his thing (and he is amazing), Zion is no Giannis and, at this point, and it's not even close. Maybe one day, but no time soon. We found out that AD is more of a support player than an 'Alpha-Dog' in terms of playoff basketball and I think it's fair to say that AD has much more game than Zion. Now those who will lament that Zion has only played 85 games and is only 20 years old, my response is, at this point in time, what else do we have to go on?
You can't make this 1 on 1 comparison between Giannis and Zion. Giannis is a different player that attacks differently. He does not have the same burst, quickness, nor leverage of Zion. Giannis relies more on length and euro steps while Zion relies more on burst and contorting his body.
Does that mean Zion wouldn't struggle scoring with his limited range in the playoffs? No. But I don't think he'd struggle as much as Giannis is either. I've seen Zion identify the double, then just quickly attack it from the weakest side. Giannis doesn't do that.
Zion needs to expand his game, but it's not as dire a situation as with Giannis.
Yeah that was kind of my point. Giannis isn't losing because he's Giannis and being a paint-based player means you're doomed, he's losing because his team has failed to pick up any of the slack (and Bud has made some baffling decisions). Meanwhile, there have been games where the Nets megastars having been red hot either, despite being perimeter based stars, but they've won anyway because the team played well to compensate.
It doesn't matter whether you do your damage in the paint or on the perimeter: if you don't have teammates hitting shots, you're just going to lose. It's that simple. Teams need more than one guy who can adequately create a shot, and they need more than one guy who can be trusted to make shots in general - if you're relying on one guy to do it all and everyone else is ice cold, you lose.
I'm with luckyman; I don't think Zion would face as much of a drop in the playoffs as Giannis has recently because while both score at the rim the actual way they do that is quite different. That said, I do think Zion will expand his range of counters, as well as add stuff to his game, because he's 21 and 21 year olds generally do that unless they're called Ben Simmons.
Yes, he will improve.... But give me an exact level that you think is realistic? Are you saying Giannis level from mid and 3? Westbrook? Jimmy? Give me a player that you think it is realistic for him to be from the 2nd and 3rd level
Lost in all this Jrue Holday won the NBA Sportsmanship award. Congrats to him.
Charles Barkley
10x+ All Star
Multiple First-Team All NBA
League MVP
NBA Hall of Fame
And the Winner is (and rightfully so)......
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-denv...213705481.html
That is mine too (I think that's the ceiling). Somewhere between Barkley on the high end and Wes Unseld on the low end with regard to his range.
As to third level, neither Barkley or Karl Malone—the two guys Zion most reminds of—ever became consistent threats from behind the arc. Though that was a different era. They might have in today’s game.
Zion’s set shot seems much like the kind of 3 pointers developed by Magic and Jason Kidd. Both became decent 3 point shooters later in their careers, taking 3-4 attempts per game. 35% +/- on 3-4 attempts per game seems around where Zion will land.
I think Zion can develop a pull-up and floater because his handle is good enough for him to drive and stop if need be. The question is how fluid will the jumper be off the dribble and can he show enough consistency to either punish defenses or force them to second guess goal hanging. I think he has a good touch, and he has even shown range from the 3 point line. I do think he will add it. Question is when
A sub 70% foul-shooter has a long way to go to become a proficient shooter. If sub-70% is the best you can do with nobody in your face, I think it would be much more difficult against bigger man's hand in your face in live action.
And if you took Barkley's efficiency from the mid range and deep into todays game, could he be the #1 on a title team?
Hakeem was AMAZING but in 2021, he aint the #1 on a great team. If he is your #1, you are getting bounced in the first round in 2021
Add it TO WHAT LEVEL?? This is what I keep asking to see what the baseline of expectations are. A ton of guys shoot a mid range off the dribble. But there are different level threats. Same with 3. I hate when people reduce 3 to the percentage when some guys get there solely off catch and shoot and others create the majority of their looks.
I am asking people to give me a current player that they think is a realistic, median outcome for Zion from levels 2 and 3 when he hits his prime. Mine would be Westbrook from 2nd level. I think he can get defenders on their heels and have a solid pull up that is wide open because defender is terrified of him getting to the rim. For 3rd level, I would say Rondo - in that he can get his own but most of his looks will be spot ups and he will shoot an overall bad percentage but will hit some when it matters.
People expecting more or less than what I laid out?
A free throw vs a jumper (off the dribble or c&s) are all different shots. Different pace, different rhythm, different muscle memory. Shooting in rhythm during a game vs shooting flat footed with plenty time to think about it all require separate practice and separate expertise.
Many players have been proficient at one but not the others. JR Smith and Jason Richardson are two examples. DeMar Derozan the opposite example of those. Even Klay Thompson shoots free throws at a rate much lower than you'd think.
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