Report: Brandon Ingram would welcome trade to Miami Heat amid report that New Orleans Pelicans are fans of Duncan Robinson https://t.co/Rq2RQEtkEO
— NBA Central (@TheNBACentral) July 26, 2021
Jesus this is such a stupid report.
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Report: Brandon Ingram would welcome trade to Miami Heat amid report that New Orleans Pelicans are fans of Duncan Robinson https://t.co/Rq2RQEtkEO
— NBA Central (@TheNBACentral) July 26, 2021
Jesus this is such a stupid report.
So, basically sounds like a reporter does not like the Pels showing interest in a Heat player, so he puts out a report to counteract it?Originally Posted by Eman5805
Haha. BI travels to Phoenix to help be a part of the coaching search because he's getting traded less than a month later.
This I love from Woj:
"The Pelicans are also working to resign restricted free agent Josh Hart."
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...mpression=true
Good positive energy.
But also, yo mama's fat.
Don't really want Hart back tbh.
For me it really depends. If he's willing to stay on the real cheap, then I'm happy to have him. But I wouldn't pay any more than $12m, and even that feels like it's the extreme end of what I'd go to. $10m feels much more appropriate.
Basketball.
I thought Josh Hart wanted to leave.
Josh Hart is meh. He really is a MLE guy at max. We shouldn?t overpay . I would rather offer $11 to $12 million a year to Duncan Robinson.
.
Last edited by Darkhorse985; 07-26-2021 at 10:22 PM.
Yeah, plus he stays hurt. He hasn't completed a full season in the league yet.
I would only keep Josh hart if he improved his three ball and improves his ball security. Dude was a turnover machine.
The most frustrating part of Hart's game, imo, is his single mindedness. It showed most obviously in transition situations, where you literally could not stop him from marching directly to the rim regardless of how many free team-mates surrounded him or how clogged with defenders the paint was, but it showed up elsewhere. A lot of his turnovers come from that lack of willingness to deviate from a pre-determined path imo. That's why his turnovers seemed so bad; it wasn't even like he had that many of them, his TOV% was fairly solid, but they looked far more egregious and frequent than they were because of how many of them were just so blatantly avoidable.
I think too much focus gets put on offense and not enough on defense/rebounding and overall hustle. Oh man. This site used to rate players with a hustle rating. That was fun. Hart will be exactly the type of vet you fill a championship roster out with. He's easily on track to be the 5th starter on a contending roster or quality role player on a championship team. He'll be 26 most of next season so he's still got some room to reach his prime.
Also funny:
Rich Paul at work, making his $$. Lol.I think too much focus gets put on offense and not enough on defense/rebounding and overall hustle. Oh man. This site used to rate players with a hustle rating. That was fun. Hart will be exactly the type of vet you fill a championship roster out with. He's easily on track to be the 5th starter on a contending roster or quality role player on a championship team. He'll be 26 most of next season so he's still got some room to reach his prime.
Also funny:
Eh, I feel like his defense and rebounding was overrated last year.
His defense was good, but not incredible: most of the attention he got for it was just appreciation for the fact that he actually played some, which is great but it's not worth huge money. He wasn't an effective stopper and his team defense was just meh. It's very much replacement level defense, and you can't overpay for average.
As for his rebounding... inflated, is probably the best word for it. I think basically everyone on the forum noted at one point or another that he actively rebound hunted a lot. Now obviously it doesn't count against him that he did that, it really doesn't matter who gets the rebound as long as someone does, but a solid number of his rebounds came from leaping in front of someone else - usually Adams or Zion - to take it from them when they were actually in better position to get it. Does that pad out Josh Hart's rebounding numbers? Sure. Does it actually help the team more than just letting Adams catch it would have done? Nope, not at all. That board was the ours either way.
Again, that level of hustle has to be appreciated, but how much do you pay for someone who
- Plays solid but unexceptional defense
- Is a mediocre-to-poor shooter
- Is a barely league average finisher
- Doesn't create for others
- Can't create for themselves with any consistency
The answer has to be on the lower end, right? You can get that kind of production out of any number of lower price options. For example, this upcoming season Larry Nance Jr will be paid $10.6m. Is Hart any better than him? I don't really think so.
Tomas Satoransky will be paid $10m. Kyle Anderson $9.9m. Royce O'Neal $8.6m. De'Anthony Melton $8.4m. Is Hart really significantly better than any of those guys? Not really imo. So why would we pay him like he was?
I like Hart but there is certainly a limit to what you’d pay him. His work on the defensive end can be replaced (albeit the more hustle the better). He really has to become a more consistent shooter and decision maker on the offensive end. We can’t have wasters on the floor come crunch time. We learned that the hard way last season
Hart is worse than those guys. He doesn't offer a ton of versatility defensively and doesn't shoot that well, yet he's of 3 and D archetype. His best NBA skill is playing hard. Thats a guy you let walk and find a vet min to replace him.10 million is overpay. 8 million might even be an overpay.
Torey Craig is a vet min guy.
Last edited by Pelifan; 07-26-2021 at 11:27 PM.
Well yeah, that's my point. You can't overpay for him. Guys of his ability and better regularly go for $10m and under. You can't pay that a huge amount of money. I get that he's a position of need for us (ish) and he's a positive personality and the hustle is always nice but yeah, no huge paydays for that.
That's an interesting amount of eye test stuff from you.
I think the expectations get unrealistic at times. Take the verbieage used about Hart's defense. You said it was good but not incredible. He didn't shoot great from 3 last year, so that definitely needs to improve but otherwise that D plus the rebounding and an improved 3 is absolutely what we need from our 5th - 7th guy when we start contending. Someone with incredible defense is more like a 3rd or 4th. "Inflated" or not, 8 boards per 27 is impressive. You can knock a couple of for "inflation" but it's still impressive.
It's kinda like the criticism Ball gets from the board. Reaity doesn't jive with the narrative.
On no planet is anyone considering Larry Nance Jr anywhere near as productive as Hart. Like.....Hart is several levels above that production and several years younger. Satoransky?! What are you seeing from Satoransky that compares production-wise to Hart?
O'Neal is the only person you listed that can be debated as being as productive as Hart and he's two years older.
Last edited by msusousaphone; 07-26-2021 at 11:43 PM.
Yeah He isn't that great, but I will defend him when the team leaves him out to dry on the toughest assignment that are complete out of position mismatch.
9.5 million per year is my comfort zone. And it's mostly because I think there is some potential in him left.
I think at the end of the day... Hart is probably gonna be our franchise 6th man for the foreseeable future.
But sweet baby Jesus... Can someone teach him how to do transition runs without bricking or getting blocked.
My point about the eye test is not that the eye test is useless, only that it's limited by how good the eyes doing the test are. In any case, pretty much everything I said can be backed up statistically.
Solid but unexceptional defense: Unimpressive STL and BLK %ages (both below 2%), was 232nd in D-EPM this year
Is a mediocre to poor shooter: 57%TS this season is about dead on league average despite super easy shot profile, shot 32% from 3 this year, hasn't shot better than league average from 3 since 2017-18.
Is barely league average finisher: League average at-rim %age is about 66%, he shot 65% at the rim this season and is a career 67% at-rim finisher. Just about dead on league average.
Doesn't create for others: AST% has been lower than TOV% his entire career, a trend continued this year.
Can't create for himself with any consistency: 98% of his 3pt makes this season were assisted and these 3s made up more than 50% of his shot attempts this season - this number is 95.2% for his career. Cannot/does not self create the hefty majority of his shots.
Firstly, when you talk about ''production'', what do you mean? Cause I genuinely don't know.
Of the 6 players (Hart, Melton, Sato, O'Neal, Nance, Anderson), Hart is
- 3rd in ppg, 2pt%
- 4th in STLs per game (tied), LEBRON (tied), RAPTOR
- 5th in blks per game, FT%, PER, TS%, WS/48, EPM
- 6th in assists per game, VORP, BPM
This idea that he's just out producing them all is just not really correct by any metric. The only thing he does definitively better than everyone else is rebound, and as already discussed, I don't really think his raw rebounding numbers are actually indicative of his rebounding ability or of the impact his rebounding has on the team. Most or all of them are better than him - or at least, are being more impactful - at everything else.
And it's not like it's some unfair comparison where he was doing it all in a much larger role than everyone else: he was 3rd out of the 6th in minutes played this year (and 3rd/4th place was super close, barely 50 total minutes difference), 3rd in minutes per game, and 5th in games played.
In my opinion, unless he takes some massive leap forward (not impossible, but unlikely for someone who is 27 this year) Hart isn't really good enough to be more than the 6th or 7th man on a really good team. How much do you pay that guy? The answer for me is ''not that much''! Like I said before, about $10m is the ceiling of my comfort for him. He is very very arguably not as good as those other guys and they all get paid that much or less. If you're paying $12m a year or more for a guy who is a 32% 3pt shooter, a non-creator on-ball, a mediocre defender, and an ineffective scorer, you're bleeding value: you could be getting the same production or better for much less money.
Last edited by Pelicanidae; 07-27-2021 at 02:57 AM.
Robinson will be 4/72 to begin with. He's an historically great shooter from three
No no no, Dae. That was A LOT of words but you never actually made an argument for those guys being on Hart's level. It's like you wrote an essay teasing us that you could make an argument but never actually made the argument. I think you shot your mouth off and then after I called you out on it, you went back and checked the stats and saw you were wrong.
Nah, I was pretty evidently correct. He is no better than those guys. Your argument was that Hart is superior in ''production'' but aside from rebounds he's very much middle tier among that roleplayer class at most things, and outright bottom tier at a lot of other things. The only thing he ''produces'' at a higher level than most of those guys is rebounds (good), wasted possessions, and puzzling decisions (bad). There is absolutely no justification for paying Hart anything more than, say, Nance.
The argument isn't for those guys ''being on Hart's level''. The argument is that Hart isn't on their level in most respects, and the evidence is that he's less efficient, more turnover prone, less impactful, and has fewer auxiliary skills than they do. That's the argument. He is no better than them at really anything other than rebounding - which, as I've said before, does not actually represent the impact of his rebounds - and considerably worse at most things, therefore the idea that he should be paid at their level or above is extremely tenuous. You can ''call me out'' on it all you like, but the stats bear that out quite clearly, as does just watching the games.
The assertion "on Hart's level", have you quantified what you actually mean by that somewhat esoteric statement? Dae just ran off a boat load of stats to back up his argument, not sure what concrete evidence you're using to back up yours.
Don't confuse someone saying the name of a vague stat like wasted possessions and puzzling decisions as them actually giving a stat. Also, Dae used a ranking system as opposed to stats because the stats are pretty identical. Case in point, steals......Hart averaged 2.3, O'Neal 2.5, Melton 2.5, and Nance had 3.1 Anderson 1.2, and Sato .7. Not much difference between Hart, Melton, and O'Neal. But if he posts the actual stats, everyone would see there isn't much difference, so he instead throws out a ranking putting Hart in 4th because that looks worse.
The most egregious stat sin is just pushing away the rebound stat. Like rebounds don't matter. "Other than the rebounding......"
Well we're debating the 5th to 7th position. That's where you're talking about players who specialize in one or two things. They won't have a ton of points.....they will just have one or two great categories. That's kinda the whole point to the position.
You're being entirely dishonest. Nobody is saying that ''wasted possessions'' is a stat. That's just you being silly. The stats given were... stats. Dispute those if you want, sure, but don't pretend like none were given and that you only got vague allusions.
In any case, you are the one that claimed that Hart is ''several levels above'' someone like Nance in ''production''. Not only do you not define what you mean by production (do you mean just raw box score? Impact metrics? Tweets about NFTs?) but this particular post contradicts your own post.
Earlier, you say that Hart is ''several levels above'' guys like this. Now, once it's been pointed out that he very clearly isn't, you're saying ''oh well, sure, if you rank them it looks bad but if you look at the raw numbers there isn't much difference!''.
Is Hart ''several levels above'' Nance, or is there not much difference? Can't really be both. If there's not much difference then my entire point - which is that Hart has done nothing to show he should be paid anything above the level of these guys (that is, the $8-10m range) - is proven.
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