Brandon Ingram

[Brian]

Simmons and Russillo have been on it for a while saying he shows no interest in being Robin to Zion's Batman.. and I withheld judgement for a while. But it feels like his defense is still terrible. Zion has at least come around from being ambivalent to giving effort there. Now he's literally paying the entire fourth just about willing is to a win, but with Brandon asked just hit some shots to help out he seems disinterested and giving little effort. I don't get it. It's not the first time. His offense has to be there every game even if it's just to create or put fouls on guys, because his defense is pretty much abhorrent.. we never should lose this game. Your stars have to at least show up and be average especially at home. Just an infuriating trend to me Brandon is showing.

I also know emotions run high after a loss and perhaps some or much of this is clouded by that, but these young guys have brought energy to the floor. When Brandon is not interested it feels he sucks the energy from the floor much like Bledsoe who normally is the culprit.

Can Ingram be part of this future? I thought so initially.

[Pelicanidae]

Ingram is very good at some things, quite good at some other things, and really terrible at a few things.

Some of those good things are really nice things to have alongside Zion - and fit around Zion should be a big priority because he's the centrepiece of the team going forward, fairly obviously.

Ingram can shoot, which works. He's a solid passer which works. He's a good finisher at the rim when he gets there, which works, and he can shoot FTs which works.

The downsides to Ingram's game right now is that he's a really really dreadful defender - yes, as you point out in the OP, worse than Zion - and he's really pretty terrible in late-game situations. His decision making goes in the toilet and his efficiency follows it there. This is an issue, yes.

For me, I'm willing to let it ride for a while longer. We obviously need to see it improve but he has taken such huge strides over the last 2 seasons and he's under contract for a good while so I'm happy to just wait and see if he can continue polishing that game before I decide that he can't be a part of the team long term. It's too early to decide that, I think, given his growth curve recently.

Of course, if a guy who has already shown those abilities who is as good a fit or better comes up, I wouldn't mind using Ingram as a trade chip for that character, but I'm not eager to see him go; I think Ingram could be a very very good 3rd Guy on a high level team if he can just solve a few problems.

[Wowowowow]

I personally don?t buy into the Batman Robin. First option / Second option stuff.
In the NBA, there are different examples shown of ways to skin a championship cat. A lot of it comes down to just how good ?the star? is in a lot of scenarios.

Zions that?s good to me.

So good that BI just needs to get a little bit older between the ears to me and hear enough statements about just how good Zion is where the natural frame switches and BI has no choice but to dim himself in a way to get Zions volume of fga and fta up. Scoring 24 on 48% is all that it?s going to take. Being a solid 20-23 PER type of player is all BI has to be.

People actually think we are losing because of the other guys...where imo we are losing bc Zion just isn?t at the insane 48-50+ or whatever insane ppg per 100 pace he should be on when he?s finally 150+ games into the league. It?s funny because this is a scenario where we are losing because a guy is so good that he?s not as good as he should be yet...which is wild. I feel like it?s going to take a natural progression of guys around him kinda ?getting it? (because as we saw, even our own fans just didn?t know how good he was til it smacked them in the face) which in turn will make Zion take over the leash.

I say stop fretting and just enjoy the ride.

[luckyman]

Of course this pops up now. Where was this 5 days ago?

And who are you going to replace BI with that you believe will be better? The only wings that haven't already had multiple poor games you can count on 2 fingers...Kawhi and Durant. Yet BI, compared to those other folks not named Kawhi or Durant, has been more consistent. Especially on the offensive end. Zion is just special where he cannot be stopped scoring within 5 ft of the goal. All others have to work harder for their shots. And they are just not going to fall all the time. Yet there are precious few wings that are elite on both ends of the floor. And even those players will have off nights on either or both ends. Thats just what it is. There was a thread this offseason where a couple said there was a guy clearly a "level up" above BI, and clearly this year, that is NOT the case. As I said it wasn't.

This is yet another example of fans "grass is greener" reaction.

What this team is still searching for is that 3rd option. That player might be on the team now, but he is 19 - 21 years old. The roster itself still needs to beef itself up. The fact that this team, with this roster, can beat and battle the best teams in the league just shows how good Zion AND BI have been this year.

And yes, it is another ridiculous assertation that BI himself is the 3rd wheel. BI as the 3rd best option on any team is a 70 win team.

[JJackisangry]

He just had two brilliant game winning performances followed by a well... poo game losing performance. This is where consistency has to come into play for him. You can have a bad game and still hit some timely shots. Tonight just kind of summed him up. When he is bad, he is usually utterly bad, and he has more bad nights than he should. He needs to get to that point where we can say- when he is bad, he is still okay. He is still making timely shots or finding a way to influence the game.

That isn’t to say he is a negative for the team (he certainly isn’t), but he just needs to be that bit better to be the player he is capable of being. He is a step short at times.

[Taker597]

You're not gonna see Ingram Defense as 3 or as a pseudo 2 improve at his current lack of strength/frame. If Ingram doesn't decide to do that. It is what it is, but I don't see anything stopping him from being at a top 10 scoring option at 27. You really got to just suck up and hide him on defense.

[Brian]

It's been building since Zion actually showed an interest in defense and Brandon has at times seemed less than thrilled with Zion's ascension. Like I said guys who cover y nationally have pointed it out repeatedly. If folks here don't think it's an issue that's good to know, but he doesn't seem that into it. He missed two clutch free throws that cost us another game but I didn't post then.

[Algiersraised]

I think most people see what they wanna see which is bi and Zion not working so they can scalp our team like mentioned before you find me a team that don’t want Brandon the man is a baller you guys want the number one player at every position we need consistency we would be alright if we kept Monty Williams, listened to our star continue to say year in and out he’s not a center ; now you guys wanna ignore Zion when he says respect lonzo give him credit lol none of our best players even 25 yet coach hasn’t coached a year yet just give it time Miami big 3 ain’t win it all the first year

[Wecandothis]

Ingram is very good at some things, quite good at some other things, and really terrible at a few things.

Some of those good things are really nice things to have alongside Zion - and fit around Zion should be a big priority because he's the centrepiece of the team going forward, fairly obviously.

Ingram can shoot, which works. He's a solid passer which works. He's a good finisher at the rim when he gets there, which works, and he can shoot FTs which works.

The downsides to Ingram's game right now is that he's a really really dreadful defender - yes, as you point out in the OP, worse than Zion - and he's really pretty terrible in late-game situations. His decision making goes in the toilet and his efficiency follows it there. This is an issue, yes.

For me, I'm willing to let it ride for a while longer. We obviously need to see it improve but he has taken such huge strides over the last 2 seasons and he's under contract for a good while so I'm happy to just wait and see if he can continue polishing that game before I decide that he can't be a part of the team long term. It's too early to decide that, I think, given his growth curve recently.

Of course, if a guy who has already shown those abilities who is as good a fit or better comes up, I wouldn't mind using Ingram as a trade chip for that character, but I'm not eager to see him go; I think Ingram could be a very very good 3rd Guy on a high level team if he can just solve a few problems.

BI's defense used to be better. I watched him with the Lakers and he defended well and gave a lot of effort. He was nothing like this.

[Eman5805]

There have been troubling signs with BI. I’m not going to commit to desiring any particular course of action but the thought is growing. I don’t subscribe to fake science notions like alpha dogs and toxic crap that springs from it. But it does appear that Ingram isn’t compatible when the game tightens. He needs to take courses of action that elevate Zion when teams start to crunch and he’s instead standing stock iron still waiting for the kick out only to take a tough contested shot.

Maybe it changes. We’ll see.

[Erose]

BI?s lack of effort correlates to the amount of effort he is putting on the offensive side. Get some better 3&D players to surround him with when Zion goes to the bench, I think that should help him be a better defensive player. Right now when Zion goes to the bench Ingram is all they got offensively.


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[As I See It]

Of course this pops up now. Where was this 5 days ago?

And who are you going to replace BI with that you believe will be better? The only wings that haven't already had multiple poor games you can count on 2 fingers...Kawhi and Durant. Yet BI, compared to those other folks not named Kawhi or Durant, has been more consistent. Especially on the offensive end. Zion is just special where he cannot be stopped scoring within 5 ft of the goal. All others have to work harder for their shots. And they are just not going to fall all the time. Yet there are precious few wings that are elite on both ends of the floor. And even those players will have off nights on either or both ends. Thats just what it is. There was a thread this offseason where a couple said there was a guy clearly a "level up" above BI, and clearly this year, that is NOT the case. As I said it wasn't.

This is yet another example of fans "grass is greener" reaction.

What this team is still searching for is that 3rd option. That player might be on the team now, but he is 19 - 21 years old. The roster itself still needs to beef itself up. The fact that this team, with this roster, can beat and battle the best teams in the league just shows how good Zion AND BI have been this year.

And yes, it is another ridiculous assertation that BI himself is the 3rd wheel. BI as the 3rd best option on any team is a 70 win team.

We should have traded BI and kept Melli. He would have at least brought back two second rounders and a tube of Clearasil. SMH

You are dead right, where were these squirrels just three days ago? I guess you can find 24 (.475) and five a game on any Discount Shelf at Dollar Tree. So let's trade his A--.

[RobertM320]

You really got to just suck up and hide him on defense.

So basically Carmelo Anthony.

[As I See It]

So basically Carmelo Anthony.

The sure fire Hall of Famer?

[Pelicanidae]

So basically Carmelo Anthony.

Carmelo but without the strength and the footwork craft.

[RobertM320]

Carmelo but without the strength and the footwork craft.

Agreed.

[Pelicanidae]

The Pelicans have played 22 games that have triggered the "clutch" criteria of game within 5, 5 minutes to go.

In 13 losses Ingram is 7/25 or 28% from the floor.

In 9 wins Ingram is 7/21 or 33% from the floor.

Even in wins, he's been abysmal in the clutch.

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) March 27, 2021

I've said this before: the fact that this is true so far this year and in his career isn't the end of the world. Maybe he will improve, it's always possible.

But Ingram has been flat out dreadful late-game for us.

[PelicanNation]

Definitely a Ego thing. By giving him the max at 23 it makes him think he is the alpha and should be the one finishing the game not a 20 yr old phenom. This is why it wasnt working with him and Lebron. BI has to get over his Ego and realize that even though he was a #2 pick he is playing with a #1 ..BI is only 23 so I am sure as he matures he will figure this out.

[luckyman]

So basically Carmelo Anthony.

Who can't you hide on defense for this team? NAW? Sometimes Lonzo? That seems about it. Really NAW seems like the only one that can make a difference on that end consistently. Kira seems promising.

Zion was very bad on defense in the last 5 minutes last night. But nobody noticed since he was as good on offense.

[As I See It]

Who can't you hide on defense for this team? NAW? Sometimes Lonzo? That seems about it. Really NAW seems like the only one that can make a difference on that end consistently. Kira seems promising.

Zion was very bad on defense in the last 5 minutes last night. But nobody noticed since he was as good on offense.

I know, we only see positive Zionisms from his cheering section in here and they conveniently turn a blind eye to the negative ones. You would think we are discussing baseball and he is exclusively a DH.

[Pelicanidae]

Who can't you hide on defense for this team? NAW? Sometimes Lonzo? That seems about it. Really NAW seems like the only one that can make a difference on that end consistently. Kira seems promising.

Zion was very bad on defense in the last 5 minutes last night. But nobody noticed since he was as good on offense.

Yeah, turns out when you're the only source of any offensive firepower for a team, the defense slips a bit. Could call that the Lebron effect; famously, his best defensive years were the ones where he didn't have to also be the Entire Offense.

He was actually pretty solid for the team leading up until the fourth quarter, and has been better on defense recently in general. Ingram, on the other hand, seems to have regressed this year compared to last, and he wasn't particularly good last year either.

[As I See It]

I can't think of a single time this year or last when BI was taken out late in the game due to poor defense. On the other hand.........

[luckyman]

Yeah, turns out when you're the only source of any offensive firepower for a team, the defense slips a bit. Could call that the Lebron effect; famously, his best defensive years were the ones where he didn't have to also be the Entire Offense.

He was actually pretty solid for the team leading up until the fourth quarter, and has been better on defense recently in general. Ingram, on the other hand, seems to have regressed this year compared to last, and he wasn't particularly good last year either.

Let's not do that. If there are no excuses for BI, then there should be none for Zion. He was mainly guarding Paul Millsap last night. Someone who is about to retire very soon if not next year.

Zion is 20 years old. Not some old 30+ vet on tired legs. Denver outscored the Pelicans 17-8 in the final 5 mins last night. Paul Millsap was responsible for 8 of those 17 points.

[Pelicanidae]

Let's not do that. If there are no excuses for BI, then there should be none for Zion. He was mainly guarding Paul Millsap last night. Someone who is about to retire very soon if not next year.

Zion is 20 years old. Not some old 30+ vet on tired legs. Denver outscored the Pelicans 17-8 in the final 5 mins last night. Paul Millsap was responsible for 8 of those 17 points.

Zion is 20 years old which is just as much a reason to expect someone to be mediocre to poor on defense as is being old. Defense is the thing that takes players the longest to learn in the NBA: most guys are no good at it until right at the end of their rookie contracts. Is Zion a great defender? No, he's not. Is he better today than he was at the start of the season? Clearly yes. But that's not a concern to me: when a 20 year old is improving on D but still has work to do, I consider that totally normal.

When a 23 year old on a max deal is getting worse, that is a concern to me.

[luckyman]

Zion is 20 years old which is just as much a reason to expect someone to be mediocre to poor on defense as is being old. Defense is the thing that takes players the longest to learn in the NBA: most guys are no good at it until right at the end of their rookie contracts. Is Zion a great defender? No, he's not. Is he better today than he was at the start of the season? Clearly yes. But that's not a concern to me: when a 20 year old is improving on D but still has work to do, I consider that totally normal.

When a 23 year old on a max deal is getting worse, that is a concern to me.

You said he struggled at the end last night due to having to carry the offense. Not because he's 20. Now it's because he's 20?

Is there a metric that shows Zion getting better? Just a couple weeks ago, Zion posted a 139 defensive rating against the Timberwolves.

Looks like the entire team has looked worse this year by metric compared to last year. Not just BI. That also tends to happen with young teams under a new coach. I'm sure you read that book.

Again context. If Zion has to deal with Carmelo, AD, Lebron, even Porzingis tonight, I'll be the first to expect a struggle and give him a pass. Not last night.