Brandon Ingram

[luckyman]

This thread exists for a guy that just had 30 & 36 point games back to back, and closed out a very tough Denver team-- on the road.

A guy that's putting up 24/5/5 on shooting splits of 48/38/88. Just for the month of March, which is a recent 13 game sample size, he's putting up 23/4/4 on 50/39/90. For the full year he's about as close to a legit 50/40/90 guy this team has had since...Jamal Mashburn?? Peja?? Let me remind you he's 23 and a relative late bloomer. He just started playing at this level.

The constant short-sightedness of fans is something to behold and worth studying. All because of that 2nd game against Denver. My god. It's ******* insanity.

[All Metro]

I don’t think he is selfish. I feel the staff encourages Ingram to be aggressive.

How old is BI 23? When do NBA players normally hit their apex 25-26?

[Pelicanidae]

I don’t think he is selfish. I feel the staff encourages Ingram to be aggressive.

How old is BI 23? When do NBA players normally hit their apex 25-26?

Depends on position. I usually find, based on personal research not anything systematic, that most players peak somewhere between 25 and 30 if they're a guard or ''normal'' SF, more like 27-32 if they're a big or a big-sized forward (Eg; Lebron).

[KoMikaera]

This thread exists for a guy that just had 30 & 36 point games back to back, and closed out a very tough Denver team-- on the road.

A guy that's putting up 24/5/5 on shooting splits of 48/38/88. Just for the month of March, which is a recent 13 game sample size, he's putting up 23/4/4 on 50/39/90. For the full year he's about as close to a legit 50/40/90 guy this team has had since...Jamal Mashburn?? Peja?? Let me remind you he's 23 and a relative late bloomer. He just started playing at this level.

The constant short-sightedness of fans is something to behold and worth studying. All because of that 2nd game against Denver. My god. It's ******* insanity.

I didn't realise Brandon was that efficient until your post. It's pretty cool.

Some guys are weak defenders and never get better. I'm not ready to say that Brandon or Zion are in that category, I'm more in the camp that says they are having to carry too much on offence at the moment out of necessity. The growth of the supporting cast will help over time. I might be wrong, time will tell.

[Brian]

This thread exists for a guy that just had 30 & 36 point games back to back, and closed out a very tough Denver team-- on the road.

A guy that's putting up 24/5/5 on shooting splits of 48/38/88. Just for the month of March, which is a recent 13 game sample size, he's putting up 23/4/4 on 50/39/90. For the full year he's about as close to a legit 50/40/90 guy this team has had since...Jamal Mashburn?? Peja?? Let me remind you he's 23 and a relative late bloomer. He just started playing at this level.

The constant short-sightedness of fans is something to behold and worth studying. All because of that 2nd game against Denver. My god. It's ******* insanity.

What's amazing is you take shots at people discussing basketball in every post you make instead of offering your point of view and letting it stand on its own. Good grief you act like people have trashed Ingram. This has been a healthy discussion and a reasoned one. Your responses are pretty extreme. It actually takes away from your points.

I think the point of the disconnect between BI alternating between scoring and playmaker was spot on. He seems uncomfortable with it. His play is very good, but as a max player already three years older than Zion I think the expectations should be incredibly high. And discussing his crunch time difficulties I think are legitimate. No one thinks Brandon isn't a fantastic player and he's a dynamic offensive threat. Was hoping to see him build off last year and take another step and so far this year I haven't seen that.

Fans aren't insane for discussing the play of their highest paid player. It's actually pretty normal and this has been fairly pleasant.

[luckyman]

What's amazing is you take shots at people discussing basketball in every post you make instead of offering your point of view and letting it stand on its own. Good grief you act like people have trashed Ingram. This has been a healthy discussion and a reasoned one. Your responses are pretty extreme. It actually takes away from your points.

I think the point of the disconnect between BI alternating between scoring and playmaker was spot on. He seems uncomfortable with it. His play is very good, but as a max player already three years older than Zion I think the expectations should be incredibly high. And discussing his crunch time difficulties I think are legitimate. No one thinks Brandon isn't a fantastic player and he's a dynamic offensive threat. Was hoping to see him build off last year and take another step and so far this year I haven't seen that.

Fans aren't insane for discussing the play of their highest paid player. It's actually pretty normal and this has been fairly pleasant.

I take shots at people in every post I make?

You know what I had a long drawn out response to this idiocy. But nah.

There is an ignore feature. Use it. I am.

[luckyman]

I didn't realise Brandon was that efficient until your post. It's pretty cool.

Some guys are weak defenders and never get better. I'm not ready to say that Brandon or Zion are in that category, I'm more in the camp that says they are having to carry too much on offence at the moment out of necessity. The growth of the supporting cast will help over time. I might be wrong, time will tell.

The on-ball ability to guard may never get better. With BI and especially with Zion, it looks more like they are thinking too much instead of playing. BI still suffers on bad close outs and screens, but otherwise does a good job sliding his feet and moving lateral.

Zion otoh, has looked good defending at the rim, but remains lost on switches, loses his man on hard cuts, and guarding on the perimeter.

Those things may never improve for either of them. But until they get the mental parts down and stop thinking strategy so much, their overall defense will suffer. Next year should tell a lot.

Good news is both NAW and Kira look like excellent on-ball defenders.

[As I See It]

Good news is both NAW and Kira look like excellent on-ball defenders.

I agree with you about NAW. Kira's got a ways to go; he seems to do a lot of chasing, IMO. (I do acknowledge his quick hands and ability to play passing lanes, though)

I really think Lonzo and NAW is the way to proceed at present. Both big, they would represent a lot of length out there at guard.

[PELICANSFAN]

I agree with you about NAW. Kira's got a ways to go; he seems to do a lot of chasing, IMO. (I do acknowledge his quick hands and ability to play passing lanes, though)

I really think Lonzo and NAW is the way to proceed at present. Both big, they would represent a lot of length out there at guard.

Agree. NAW has shown some promise on the defensive end. Kira is out of position a lot and tries to rely on speed to make up for it. Leads to a lot of reaching and fouls.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

I don’t think he is selfish. I feel the staff encourages Ingram to be aggressive.

How old is BI 23? When do NBA players normally hit their apex 25-26?

I don't think he's selfish either. I think Brandon is in a bit of a tough spot right now. He probably came into this season thinking he had to be the best player on the team and shoulder the load offensively. Then at some point Zion just exploded, and has frankly surpassed BI as an offensive player and playmaker.

Now BI does have a skill set that Zion doesn't have with his jumper. The problem is BI seems more comfortable in creating his own shots and getting to specific spots on the floor and shooting off the dribble. Which is fine when Zion isn't in the game. But when Zion is in the game, it takes the ball out of Zion's hands too much.

I think BI's next evolution is probably a difficult one, but if he's going to flourish next to Zion, I think it's necessary. He needs to be able to adjust his game when he's playing with Zion to be able to do more catch and shoot and move off the ball. He certainly is capable of it, because I've seen him do it successfully. Frankly I think he just needs to swallow his pride a bit, and learn to let the ball go through Zion when he's on the court with him.

[Pelicanidae]

I don't think he's selfish either. I think Brandon is in a bit of a tough spot right now. He probably came into this season thinking he had to be the best player on the team and shoulder the load offensively. Then at some point Zion just exploded, and has frankly surpassed BI as an offensive player and playmaker.

Now BI does have a skill set that Zion doesn't have with his jumper. The problem is BI seems more comfortable in creating his own shots and getting to specific spots on the floor and shooting off the dribble. Which is fine when Zion isn't in the game. But when Zion is in the game, it takes the ball out of Zion's hands too much.

I think BI's next evolution is probably a difficult one, but if he's going to flourish next to Zion, I think it's necessary. He needs to be able to adjust his game when he's playing with Zion to be able to do more catch and shoot and move off the ball. He certainly is capable of it, because I've seen him do it successfully. Frankly I think he just needs to swallow his pride a bit, and learn to let the ball go through Zion when he's on the court with him.

Not only does it take the ball out of Zion's hands too much but it also puts Ingram in a worse off position.

This season, Ingram is a 41.8% Catch and shoot guy, but only a 33.3% pull up shooter (in terms of 3s). This trend was true last year as well, where he shot 27.9% on pullup threes but was 42% on catch & shoot attempts. He's quite simply far better from 3 when catching than when pulling up, at least at this stage in his career.

Last season that was reflected in the volume: far more of his three were c&s: he only took about 1 pullup a game. This year he's taking 2.5 pullups a game, more than double the volume, and it's just not as valuable for the offense. Part of that is development, sure: he has to take those shots now so that hopefully he can be better at them later. But it does introduce a frustrating element when he takes them in lieu of running a better possession. His own play would look better if he chose those shots more carefully.

[luckyman]

Not only does it take the ball out of Zion's hands too much but it also puts Ingram in a worse off position.

This season, Ingram is a 41.8% Catch and shoot guy, but only a 33.3% pull up shooter (in terms of 3s). This trend was true last year as well, where he shot 27.9% on pullup threes but was 42% on catch & shoot attempts. He's quite simply far better from 3 when catching than when pulling up, at least at this stage in his career.

Last season that was reflected in the volume: far more of his three were c&s: he only took about 1 pullup a game. This year he's taking 2.5 pullups a game, more than double the volume, and it's just not as valuable for the offense. Part of that is development, sure: he has to take those shots now so that hopefully he can be better at them later. But it does introduce a frustrating element when he takes them in lieu of running a better possession. His own play would look better if he chose those shots more carefully.

If you are threat to make or shoot pull up 3s, what do you (influenced by Zach Lowe) suppose happens? It will draw the defense out further and open up the paint right?

What has been happening with Ingram almost all year long? Didn't I show a screen shot of Ingram drawing a hard hedge/double almost out by the half court stripe VERY early this year? Never mind the fact that pull up 3s (a shot that is not new and no new affect of defenses) aren't the main reason this happens. But I'm not explaining this again.

The Pelicans have the 7th rated offense for a reason. One of the huge reasons is how defenses have played Brandon Ingram and what it does for the rest of the offense. It has benefitted Zion as well. That's pretty evident for those of us not fishing for false reasons to hate on Brandon Ingram.

[Pelicanidae]

If you are threat to make or shoot pull up 3s, what do you (influenced by Zach Lowe) suppose happens? It will draw the defense out further and open up the paint right?

What has been happening with Ingram almost all year long? Didn't I show a screen shot of Ingram drawing a hard hedge/double almost out by the half court stripe VERY early this year? Never mind the fact that pull up 3s (a shot that is not new and no new affect of defenses) aren't the main reason this happens. But I'm not explaining this again.

The Pelicans have the 7th rated offense for a reason. One of the huge reasons is how defenses have played Brandon Ingram and what it does for the rest of the offense. It has benefitted Zion as well. That's pretty evident for those of us not fishing for false reasons to hate on Brandon Ingram.

You're having a debate against a point I haven't made. I haven't said anything about the value of a pullup three relative to a catch and shoot. Read that post again, there is not one word to suggest that either is inherently more valuable. So it's a good thing that you're "not explaining" the fact that pull up threes aren't new or more valuable or impactful because you're replying to a post where I don't even claim they do in the first place.

The point is simple. Brandon Ingram is going to take a three. Do you want it to be pull up or catch and shoot? For me, I want it to be catch and shoot. Why? Cause he hits those. He doesn't hit pull-ups. That simple. That's all I'm saying.

You're at the point where you're just lashing out at even the slightest semi perceived criticism of Ingram, even when it doesn't exist in the post you're replying to. Chill out. Nobody is "fishing for false reasons" to hate.

[As I See It]

You're at the point where you're just lashing out at even the slightest semi perceived criticism of Ingram, even when it doesn't exist in the post you're replying to. Chill out. Nobody is "fishing for false reasons" to hate.

Your reputation precedes you, so you chill out.

[luckyman]

You're having a debate against a point I haven't made. I haven't said anything about the value of a pullup three relative to a catch and shoot. Read that post again, there is not one word to suggest that either is inherently more valuable. So it's a good thing that you're "not explaining" the fact that pull up threes aren't new or more valuable or impactful because you're replying to a post where I don't even claim they do in the first place.

The point is simple. Brandon Ingram is going to take a three. Do you want it to be pull up or catch and shoot? For me, I want it to be catch and shoot. Why? Cause he hits those. He doesn't hit pull-ups. That simple. That's all I'm saying.

You're at the point where you're just lashing out at even the slightest semi perceived criticism of Ingram, even when it doesn't exist in the post you're replying to. Chill out. Nobody is "fishing for false reasons" to hate.

Oh ok. So we just brought up his pull up 3 pt % for nothing basically.

I actually don't "lash out" at every slightest perceived criticism of Ingram. Because some of them I've openly agreed with:

He needs to be better defensively.
He needs to hit open shots in the clutch.
He needs to stop shooting so many jumpers in the clutch and drive more (although the clutch shots fell last game).
He needs to evolve decision making handling these hard doubles and traps.

But this stuff?

"He's jealous of Zion"
"He wants control of the team and not Zion"
"We should listen to trade offers for him"
"He has no burst"

I mean come on. Am I "lashing out" if I point out how silly some of that stuff is? The only proper question is what size hook.

And just for context, I think'd we'd all agree that Kawhi Leonard is the best SF in the game right now.

He's shooting 31% on 2.2 three-point pull ups this year. Worse than BI.

[As I See It]

Oh ok. So we just brought up his pull up 3 pt % for nothing basically.

I actually don't "lash out" at every slightest perceived criticism of Ingram. Because some of them I've openly agreed with:

He needs to be better defensively.
He needs to hit open shots in the clutch.
He needs to stop shooting so many jumpers in the clutch and drive more (although the clutch shots fell last game).
He needs to evolve decision making handling these hard doubles and traps.

But this stuff?

"He's jealous of Zion"
"He wants control of the team and not Zion"
"We should listen to trade offers for him"
"He has no burst"

I mean come on. Am I "lashing out" if I point out how silly some of that stuff is? The only proper question is what size hook.

And just for context, I think'd we'd all agree that Kawhi Leonard is the best SF in the game right now.

He's shooting 31% on 2.2 three-point pull ups this year. Worse than BI.

May I be on on this?

[Pelicanidae]

Oh ok. So we just brought up his pull up 3 pt % for nothing basically.

No, it wasn't brought up for nothing. It was brought up because I was replying to someone who was specifically talking about Ingram's love of working off the dribble. There was a context to my post in that it was a *reply* which means the topic was already set and I was *responding* along that theme.

[Pelicanidae]

Someone on Twitter posted a widget that tracks player's efficiencies in various playtypes, both offensive and defensive, over the last 7 years. I thought it would be cool to see how Ingram has changed and improved in various categories over that time. It's based on Synergy data, just for reference. Site available here if you want to check the numbers or look at any other players yourself: https://burakcankoc.shinyapps.io/PlaytypeBreakdown/

I'm not posting the figures for playtypes like ''misc'' and ''pnr rollman'' in which Ingram has either played so little for it to be meaningless (he has 14 career possessions as the roller in a PnR according to synergy) or where it's nebulous as to what it means, like misc.

Transition:

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.82	124	47.2%
2017-18	1.72	180	69.8%
2018-19	1.22	185	65.7%
2019-20	1.14	264	57.8%
2020-21	1.09	134	61.5%

Pick and Roll - Ball Handler

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.59	193	31.0%
2017-18	0.79	305	43.1%
2018-19	0.79	251	42.4%
2019-20	0.90	333	49.4%
2020-21	1.00	313	52.1%

Isolation

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.78	132	40.8%
2017-18	0.77	147	37.8%
2018-19	1.00	140	53.2%
2019-20	0.96	191	46.7%
2020-21	1.01	126	48.5%

Spot-up

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.93	198	46.8%
2017-18	1.08	123	52.9%
2018-19	0.88	128	44.1%
2019-20	1.12	299	56.9%
2020-21	1.22	191	60.5%

I won't post the other playtypes because, frankly, he just doesn't do them often enough. For example, in 2019-20 he was posting about 1.5ppp on cuts but the reality is that they made up so few possessions (he had fewer than 1 per game) that it was pointless to transcribe; the sample size over the years was just too small.

There are a few clear trends here though. Firstly, look at the value of the spot up shooting improving nearly every year (slight relapse in his final season in LA) with the volume and EFG% both spiking once he comes to New Orleans.

Similarly, when looking at his transition scoring you can see that the expected points per possession for Ingram has been dropping basically every year, and you can also see where his rate of transition scoring attempts seems to have dropped from Gentry to SVG.

The PnR Ball Handler craft has always been pretty high volume but you can see the slow-and-steady improvement in the eFG% over the years. The actual ppp isn't crazy high or elite, but 1ppp is perfectly average offense and is fine thing to be able to default to for a guy who is your secondary offensive weapon: if your backup ballhandler is capable of self-generating league-average offense on his own whenever your main guy is off the floor or playing off ball or having a bad night, that's a pretty reliable fall-back plan.

It's fun to literally watch the progress through the years in some of these categories, even if it's not a linear and uniform growth across all categories.

[new city champ]

Ingram is a good player and I don't buy that he can't fit next to Zion. He's a legit three-level scorer and has show real progression as a passer. Rebounds ok and I think he gives at least sporadic effort on defense with blocked shots, deflections etc...

My issue with him is the one that I noticed the very first game he played as a Pel: He tends to dribble the air out of the ball. He's a bit of an "Iso-Joe." The ball sticks with him too often. He's gotten better about it, but under pressure he reverts. I don't know anything about the dynamic with Zion or whether he has a problem being second-fiddle on the Pels. I can see how it's possible he would. That's something management needs to know on the inside.

Griff said no one is "untouchable." One possibility you have to consider is whether you use Ingram as lynchpin in a deal for Bradley Beal. I can make arguments against that, but I can also argue Beal is a better fit next to Zion.

[HornetGuru]

Someone on Twitter posted a widget that tracks player's efficiencies in various playtypes, both offensive and defensive, over the last 7 years. I thought it would be cool to see how Ingram has changed and improved in various categories over that time. It's based on Synergy data, just for reference. Site available here if you want to check the numbers or look at any other players yourself: https://burakcankoc.shinyapps.io/PlaytypeBreakdown/

I'm not posting the figures for playtypes like ''misc'' and ''pnr rollman'' in which Ingram has either played so little for it to be meaningless (he has 14 career possessions as the roller in a PnR according to synergy) or where it's nebulous as to what it means, like misc.

Transition:

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.82	124	47.2%
2017-18	1.72	180	69.8%
2018-19	1.22	185	65.7%
2019-20	1.14	264	57.8%
2020-21	1.09	134	61.5%

Pick and Roll - Ball Handler

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.59	193	31.0%
2017-18	0.79	305	43.1%
2018-19	0.79	251	42.4%
2019-20	0.90	333	49.4%
2020-21	1.00	313	52.1%

Isolation

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.78	132	40.8%
2017-18	0.77	147	37.8%
2018-19	1.00	140	53.2%
2019-20	0.96	191	46.7%
2020-21	1.01	126	48.5%

Spot-up

	Points per Possession	Number of Possessions	Effective FG%
2016-17	0.93	198	46.8%
2017-18	1.08	123	52.9%
2018-19	0.88	128	44.1%
2019-20	1.12	299	56.9%
2020-21	1.22	191	60.5%

I won't post the other playtypes because, frankly, he just doesn't do them often enough. For example, in 2019-20 he was posting about 1.5ppp on cuts but the reality is that they made up so few possessions (he had fewer than 1 per game) that it was pointless to transcribe; the sample size over the years was just too small.

There are a few clear trends here though. Firstly, look at the value of the spot up shooting improving nearly every year (slight relapse in his final season in LA) with the volume and EFG% both spiking once he comes to New Orleans.

Similarly, when looking at his transition scoring you can see that the expected points per possession for Ingram has been dropping basically every year, and you can also see where his rate of transition scoring attempts seems to have dropped from Gentry to SVG.

The PnR Ball Handler craft has always been pretty high volume but you can see the slow-and-steady improvement in the eFG% over the years. The actual ppp isn't crazy high or elite, but 1ppp is perfectly average offense and is fine thing to be able to default to for a guy who is your secondary offensive weapon: if your backup ballhandler is capable of self-generating league-average offense on his own whenever your main guy is off the floor or playing off ball or having a bad night, that's a pretty reliable fall-back plan.

It's fun to literally watch the progress through the years in some of these categories, even if it's not a linear and uniform growth across all categories.

I love looking at this kind of info, but also let’s not forget the first few years we’re going against bench players and only the last year or 2 has Ingram been drawing the teams best defender, so even if the numbers are linear with no improvement, it’s still in fact improvement because it’s against harder competition.

[HornetGuru]

Ingram is a good player and I don't buy that he can't fit next to Zion. He's a legit three-level scorer and has show real progression as a passer. Rebounds ok and I think he gives at least sporadic effort on defense with blocked shots, deflections etc...

My issue with him is the one that I noticed the very first game he played as a Pel: He tends to dribble the air out of the ball. He's a bit of an "Iso-Joe." The ball sticks with him too often. He's gotten better about it, but under pressure he reverts. I don't know anything about the dynamic with Zion or whether he has a problem being second-fiddle on the Pels. I can see how it's possible he would. That's something management needs to know on the inside.

Griff said no one is "untouchable." One possibility you have to consider is whether you use Ingram as lynchpin in a deal for Bradley Beal. I can make arguments against that, but I can also argue Beal is a better fit next to Zion.

I can’t disagree with this post enough.

[Pelicanidae]

I love looking at this kind of info, but also let’s not forget the first few years we’re going against bench players and only the last year or 2 has Ingram been drawing the teams best defender, so even if the numbers are linear with no improvement, it’s still in fact improvement because it’s against harder competition.

Ingram is not drawing the best defender on teams this year at least a significant portion of the time. That's fairly evident, I think.

[HornetGuru]

Ingram is not drawing the best defender on teams this year at least a significant portion of the time. That's fairly evident, I think.

He draws the teams best defender out of the pg, sg, sf position. When we played the Celtics last time they put brown on him.

Did he draw Tatum? No, but he plays PF

[6warddude]

He draws the teams best defender out of the pg, sg, sf position. When we played the Celtics last time they put brown on him.

Did he draw Tatum? No, but he plays PF

he drew tatum last night...

[Pelicanidae]

He draws the teams best defender out of the pg, sg, sf position. When we played the Celtics last time they put brown on him.

Did he draw Tatum? No, but he plays PF

And Brown is who? The Celtics 3rd best defender, probably.

It's not a knock on Ingram. He's taken huge strides over the last few years and is a legitimate top 40 player. His offensive game has grown from strength to strength and he deserved his All Star selection last year. Got a max contract and earned it. He's really really great.

But it's precisely because he's so good that he doesn't need people exaggerating for him. He doesn't draw the best defender on the opposing team every night, or even most nights, because most nights that guy is glued to Zion along with three other help defenders. It doesn't devalue Ingram to acknowledge that fact - it does devalue him to pretend that anything he's not excellent at is because he's the subject of all the defensive attention. He's good enough to deserve an honest conversation.