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Thread: Brandon Ingram

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    You said he struggled at the end last night due to having to carry the offense. Not because he's 20. Now it's because he's 20?

    Is there a metric that shows Zion getting better? Just a couple weeks ago, Zion posted a 139 defensive rating against the Timberwolves.

    Looks like the entire team has looked worse this year by metric compared to last year. Not just BI. That also tends to happen with young teams under a new coach. I'm sure you read that book.

    Again context. If Zion has to deal with Carmelo, AD, Lebron, even Porzingis tonight, I'll be the first to expect a struggle and give him a pass. Not last night.
    He struggles in general because he's 20, but if you wondered why there parts of last night in specific that might have explained his worse-than-usual 4th quarter, the increased offensive load goes some way towards that. More than one thing can be true at the same time.

    We need to retire using offensive and defensive ratings for individual players. I've done it in the past, and I've been doing it less recently because it's just not applicable: it relies on the lineups you play with. This has been a known fact for a long time, and it's why individual player O/DRtg should be totally abandoned in general: as for a single game version of that you might as well consult the bones and tell me what the prophets say. It's about as useful.

    Or, in more plain language:

    Basketball.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    He struggles in general because he's 20, but if you wondered why there parts of last night in specific that might have explained his worse-than-usual 4th quarter, the increased offensive load goes some way towards that. More than one thing can be true at the same time.

    We need to retire using offensive and defensive ratings for individual players. I've done it in the past, and I've been doing it less recently because it's just not applicable: it relies on the lineups you play with. This has been a known fact for a long time, and it's why individual player O/DRtg should be totally abandoned in general: as for a single game version of that you might as well consult the bones and tell me what the prophets say. It's about as useful.

    Or, in more plain language:


    Ok shifty.

    Also, those ratings are a loose proxy and thusly so is WS. Just thought I'd post that since your boy Shamit did it last night. I wish I was a twit because I wanted to respond to that nonsense so bad.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Ok shifty.

    Also, those ratings are a loose proxy and thusly so is WS. Just thought I'd post that since your boy Shamit did it last night. I wish I was a twit because I wanted to respond to that nonsense so bad.
    Shamit's not ''my boy'', he's just a dude that I agree with sometimes and disagree with other times.

    DRTGs are a loose proxy, but they're not a loose proxy for individual players, they're entirely lineup based. Something like WS is also largely outdated, it's why (when possible) stats like EPM, RAPM, LEBRON, RAPTOR, and (when it was publically available, RIP) PIPM are better.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Let's not do that. If there are no excuses for BI, then there should be none for Zion. He was mainly guarding Paul Millsap last night. Someone who is about to retire very soon if not next year.

    Zion is 20 years old. Not some old 30+ vet on tired legs. Denver outscored the Pelicans 17-8 in the final 5 mins last night. Paul Millsap was responsible for 8 of those 17 points.
    And Zion scored ALL EIGHT of the Pels points. So at least he broke even. What's the excuse for the rest of the team?

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Shamit's not ''my boy'', he's just a dude that I agree with sometimes and disagree with other times.

    DRTGs are a loose proxy, but they're not a loose proxy for individual players, they're entirely lineup based. Something like WS is also largely outdated, it's why (when possible) stats like EPM, RAPM, LEBRON, RAPTOR, and (when it was publically available, RIP) PIPM are better.
    Shamit's your boy. I think low key yall are the same dude.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertM320 View Post
    And Zion scored ALL EIGHT of the Pels points. So at least he broke even. What's the excuse for the rest of the team?
    No excuse at all. BI hass to make wide open shots and he's got to find ways to attack no matter how much of a wall there is. He can draw fouls with the best of them. But we have local reporters printing stuff like this...

    "Williamson bore almost no responsibility for the loss. The 20-year-old was near perfect, exploding for a career-high 39 points on 16-of-19 shooting."
    That's just not true at all. As I See It is the hot take king, but he's correct that Zion's vast shortcomings on the defensive end get an enormous pass among fans and the press that seem to only look at one side of the court.

    I've defended Zion on here as much as BI when necessary, but I also know he's got a LONG way to go on defense. Especially when Paul Millsap is affecting the game at crucial moments.
    Last edited by luckyman; 03-27-2021 at 03:18 PM.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    I've defended Zion on here as much as BI when necessary, but I also know he's got a LONG way to go on defense. Especially when Paul Millsap is affecting the game at crucial moments.
    You seen to be particularly furious about it being Paul Millsap, cause he's old and over the hill.

    Did you have the same passion for Giannis and Embiid getting clowned by washed Marc Gasol in the playoffs a few years back? This isn't a gotcha, I just genuinely can't remember if you did or not.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertM320 View Post
    And Zion scored ALL EIGHT of the Pels points. So at least he broke even. What's the excuse for the rest of the team?
    Steven was busy, setting screens for Zion.
    Just another Kiwi basking in the reflected glory of Steven Adams....bask bask...

  9. #34
    And that is the flip side of BI. That drive and midrange flips the game on its head. We need a guy who can make THAT shot. Zion can carry the team in most instances. BI needs to have those big moments too. Love the way we closed that one.

  10. #35
    The Future Brian's Avatar
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    So Zion had been about as bad on defense as anyone I'd ever seen up until recently. He's shown effort and made some strides. It was alarming though because he didn't show those concerns at Duke that he clearly did at the outset of his NBA career..

    Brandon though has seemingly gotten worse on defense. Certainly not better. And he's not relatively new to the league, either. That's alarming to me. If he's gonna be offensive heavy that's fine but he's been pretty terrible in crunch time the entire year. That's just reality.

    Not sure why some are upset the topic is coming up. Reading through this it appears Brandon's game shouldn't be discussed. Strange. You have two all stars on this team. You need both to excel nightly at their strengths and hopefully improve on their weaknesses. Brandon also has at times shown a lack of embracing Zion taking control of the team. It's been noted for a while now by national guys who cover the league. That's not to say Brandon won't come around and improve in every area and find his niche. He's improved a lot in his time in the league and is said to be a tireless gym rat.

    I just felt these issues were worth noting and discussing.
    "..but there's Baron dribbling the ball for 20 seconds, hoisting bad 3s and single-handedly killing them in close games. It's like somebody shrunk Antoine Walker and gave him his own team."
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  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    So Zion had been about as bad on defense as anyone I'd ever seen up until recently. He's shown effort and made some strides. It was alarming though because he didn't show those concerns at Duke that he clearly did at the outset of his NBA career..

    Brandon though has seemingly gotten worse on defense. Certainly not better. And he's not relatively new to the league, either. That's alarming to me. If he's gonna be offensive heavy that's fine but he's been pretty terrible in crunch time the entire year. That's just reality.

    Not sure why some are upset the topic is coming up. Reading through this it appears Brandon's game shouldn't be discussed. Strange. You have two all stars on this team. You need both to excel nightly at their strengths and hopefully improve on their weaknesses. Brandon also has at times shown a lack of embracing Zion taking control of the team. It's been noted for a while now by national guys who cover the league. That's not to say Brandon won't come around and improve in every area and find his niche. He's improved a lot in his time in the league and is said to be a tireless gym rat.

    I just felt these issues were worth noting and discussing.
    I do think defense comes with winning and age. Some guys get it early and come into the league with a defense first mindset. Some start winning games and realize that it takes both sides of the floor to take that next step. I personally think we should just wait and see. Not that the criticism isn’t valid, but we are not a perineal playoff team or an experienced squad as of yet.

  12. #37
    Great game from BI tonight. Everybody wants a perimeter guy that draws doubles and traps for this team. That guy is BI for the Pelicans. The problem is who is going to take the scoring mantle when Zion is not in the game and BI is getting trapped? Who's the 3rd guy?

    BI has his issues, but let's not focus on FACTUAL issues tho. Let's focus on this supposed nonsense like BI not wanting "give control to Zion" because some dumb arse national guys that watch a couple Pelicans games here and there say so. Nevermind all the assists from BI that set Zion up to score. Nah he's too jealous and selfish.

    This place is crazy.

  13. #38
    I do think D Wes made a great point just now that when BI is struggling he needs to find better ways to influence the game. You can’t let your effort drop on the defensive side and you have to find more ways to get your teammates involved. I felt he at least tried to be a playmaker the other night, but he fell a bit short when it mattered. Still got a ways to go, but I’m more concerned about the NAW’s, Lonzo’s, Kira’s and guys that we are actually evaluating as I’m fairly certain BI will get there. We start winning and I think the switch will flip. That may start with experience or an acquisition or two.

  14. #39
    The Future Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Great game from BI tonight. Everybody wants a perimeter guy that draws doubles and traps for this team. That guy is BI for the Pelicans. The problem is who is going to take the scoring mantle when Zion is not in the game and BI is getting trapped? Who's the 3rd guy?

    BI has his issues, but let's not focus on FACTUAL issues tho. Let's focus on this supposed nonsense like BI not wanting "give control to Zion" because some dumb arse national guys that watch a couple Pelicans games here and there say so. Nevermind all the assists from BI that set Zion up to score. Nah he's too jealous and selfish.

    This place is crazy.
    You thought that was a great game for him tonight? In what way?

    Instead of actually discussing anything you just seem intent to attack others and insult the subjects brought up. That kind of thing adds nothing to message boards you know.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Great game from BI tonight. Everybody wants a perimeter guy that draws doubles and traps for this team. That guy is BI for the Pelicans. The problem is who is going to take the scoring mantle when Zion is not in the game and BI is getting trapped? Who's the 3rd guy?

    BI has his issues, but let's not focus on FACTUAL issues tho. Let's focus on this supposed nonsense like BI not wanting "give control to Zion" because some dumb arse national guys that watch a couple Pelicans games here and there say so. Nevermind all the assists from BI that set Zion up to score. Nah he's too jealous and selfish.

    This place is crazy.
    I never understood the BI is selfish narrative. Sometimes the ebb and flow games aren't in your control some nights

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    You thought that was a great game for him tonight? In what way?

    Instead of actually discussing anything you just seem intent to attack others and insult the subjects brought up. That kind of thing adds nothing to message boards you know.
    In what way did he have a good game tonight?? Did you see him bring the team back to take the lead in the 3rd? Did you see him hit clutch shots late in the 4th?

    I just literally discussed how he draws doubles and traps. I just literally discussed how they need to find a 3rd wheel when Zion leaves the game. You saw them literally struggle tonight when only Zion or only BI was in the game. I literally brought up how BI looks for Zion when trying to make plays, juxtaposed to him not wanting to give control to Zion. He literally calls Zion to come and get the ball or to get to the elbow to receive the ball. This is what I see.

    How am I not discussing anything and just "attacking others? Did you not read all that?

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    I never understood the BI is selfish narrative. Sometimes the ebb and flow games aren't in your control some nights
    Me either. Thats what I just addressed, but that's taken as "attacking others."

  18. #43
    The Future Brian's Avatar
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    I don't think he's selfish at all and haven't used that word. He does seem uncomfortable at times and disinterested when he's not the focal point. He's got plenty of time to adjust. He's still very young and definitely think he's incredibly talented. I do think there's been enough signs to discuss it.

    I don't think anything about Brandon's game tonight garners the term great though, but I guess we have different ideas of what that word means in terms of basketball. He had 1 assist and 4 rebounds tonight. He seemed to struggle against their defense all night but hit some nice shots in the second half. Those I find should be expected of him at this point. I didn't find this game to be anything to be excited about with him let alone great..?

  19. #44
    Willie count the Green Fedupfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Me either. Thats what I just addressed, but that's taken as "attacking others."
    I think it?s opposite. I think he would happily not be forced into that role and do exactly what NAW did tonight. BI seems really chill. I doubt he would be upset if he wasn?t forced to close the games. Some people can be really good and not do as well when the pressure is on them. I think that?s BI sometimes. NAW seems to live the big shot.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I don't think he's selfish at all and haven't used that word. He does seem uncomfortable at times and disinterested when he's not the focal point. He's got plenty of time to adjust. He's still very young and definitely think he's incredibly talented. I do think there's been enough signs to discuss it.

    I don't think anything about Brandon's game tonight garners the term great though, but I guess we have different ideas of what that word means in terms of basketball. He had 1 assist and 4 rebounds tonight. He seemed to struggle against their defense all night but hit some nice shots in the second half. Those I find should be expected of him at this point. I didn't find this game to be anything to be excited about with him let alone great..?
    He had 2 to 3 bodies on him as soon as he made a move last night and tonight. Tonight he still managed to bring the team back to take the lead in the 3rd. Still hit big shots late in the 4th. All in the face of that pressure.

    He is a young player still adapting to seeing multiple bodies and found a way hit big shots and score 19 on 53% shooting in the face of that. Didn't force much of anything that would only hurt the team. Only had 1 turnover in the face of that pressure. Willingly deferred to Zion who could not be stopped at the rim, once again, on the offensive end.

    Not all great games involve a triple double or scoring 40 points. What else do you want?

    Yall can have this one. I expect this thing will die off quickly.
    Last edited by luckyman; 03-27-2021 at 11:31 PM.

  21. #46
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    To wit, I don’t think Ingram is selfish. Just that his style of game isn’t very adaptable. He kind of needs to do the same things. Zion is able to facilitate when teams constrict in crunch time. Ingram has to be able to do the same.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    To wit, I don’t think Ingram is selfish. Just that his style of game isn’t very adaptable. He kind of needs to do the same things. Zion is able to facilitate when teams constrict in crunch time. Ingram has to be able to do the same.
    I think Ingram has a minor processing problem where instead of his scoring and facilitating game being integrated into each other, they're quite firmly separated much of the time. So there's a momentary delay when he switches from score-first mode into playmaking mode, and that split second can often allow the pass he wanted to make to close up, or the shot he wanted to take to vanish, and it leaves him in a bit of a conundrum.

    The best players, the absolutely top tier on-ball guys, have their scoring and facilitating so fused into one another that they're constantly doing both, and there's no delay between either option.

    That doesn't mean he's selfish, it just means the decision making isn't quite top tier.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I think Ingram has a minor processing problem where instead of his scoring and facilitating game being integrated into each other, they're quite firmly separated much of the time. So there's a momentary delay when he switches from score-first mode into playmaking mode, and that split second can often allow the pass he wanted to make to close up, or the shot he wanted to take to vanish, and it leaves him in a bit of a conundrum.

    The best players, the absolutely top tier on-ball guys, have their scoring and facilitating so fused into one another that they're constantly doing both, and there's no delay between either option.

    That doesn't mean he's selfish, it just means the decision making isn't quite top tier.
    I agree with that last line. He certainly isn’t selfish, but he seems caught in two minds quite often. That is something he needs to develop down the line if he wants to reach that next step.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I think Ingram has a minor processing problem where instead of his scoring and facilitating game being integrated into each other, they're quite firmly separated much of the time. So there's a momentary delay when he switches from score-first mode into playmaking mode, and that split second can often allow the pass he wanted to make to close up, or the shot he wanted to take to vanish, and it leaves him in a bit of a conundrum.

    The best players, the absolutely top tier on-ball guys, have their scoring and facilitating so fused into one another that they're constantly doing both, and there's no delay between either option.

    That doesn't mean he's selfish, it just means the decision making isn't quite top tier.
    This is true. People have to think about what they're doing while they're learning something new. Later, they have to practice and then compete enough that the new skills become second nature. Eventually, if they're gifted they get where they use their new skills without thinking about them and their mind focuses on the big picture of the contest. BI still seems to be thinking about scoring vs facilitating instead of just doing the next right thing.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by johnpagenola View Post
    This is true. People have to think about what they're doing while they're learning something new. Later, they have to practice and then compete enough that the new skills become second nature. Eventually, if they're gifted they get where they use their new skills without thinking about them and their mind focuses on the big picture of the contest. BI still seems to be thinking about scoring vs facilitating instead of just doing the next right thing.
    This isn't necessarily a ''learning'' thing and there's no guarantee that he ever irons it out. There have been plenty of players who have had disconnects like this going on that have never solved it.

    Some of them become incredibly successful anyway (Wilt Chamberlain being the ultimate example: writers even during his prime were commenting at his inability to combine scoring with playmaking, instead switching from all of one to all of the other in a predictable fashion) and others don't. It's not a career killing issue, not at all, but we also can't just assume it'll be something he will inevitably figure out.

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