February 17th - New Orleans Pelicans VS Portland Trailblazers - 12-15

[Pelicanidae]

Which part of "seasoned top 10 vets" are you missing? Didn't I say I chose those players for a reason? Nobody will accuse Lebron of being a poor clutch player at this point despite the bad shooting. Ingram is still a young player that has just ascended to a max player in the last year and 28 games.

Where was all this talk of him not being a max player before this? A player whose overall stats have gone up slightly across the board outside of rebounding AFTER becoming a max player?

It's only 28 games into the year. If he finishes the year being atrocious in the clutch this year then talk. Otherwise he's earned not being attacked every small chance by certain folks. You're not supposed to be a chicken little here in a place full of them. Stop being one when it comes to Ingram. Grow up faster.

''Where was all this talk about him not being a max player?'' we had the conversation last year, and whether or not he was a max player was, in my view, entirely dependent on what max he got. I've literally explained this in this thread once already, not going to do it again.

My question is when does the criticism get allowed? He was bad in the clutch last year, but you know, he's a young player who has ''just ascended'' so it's fine, we accept that. Now he's even worse in the clutch so far this year, but we can't talk about that either because it's only 28 games in. You're saying right now that if he's this bad still at the end of the year, we can talk, but why should I believe that? He sucked last year and we weren't allowed to talk, why should I believe that if we get to the end of the year and he still sucks you won't just turn around and say ''oh well you know, first year with a new coach, shortened season, gotta give him next year too''?

At some point you have to answer to criticism, and when you're being paid $28m and taking the most shots on the team on a daily basis, that point is now.

You're telling me I'm not supposed to be a ''chicken little'', which I'm sure you think sounds very clever, but there's a distinction between panicking and claiming the sky is falling and what I'm doing which is just saying ''hey, I wonder if my concerns that I had over a year ago and which have since been substantiated in a few ways might have been correct''.

The sky isn't falling, but it is looking stormy and I, for one, would like to remember to bring my umbrella.

[Pelicanidae]

In 43 minutes of clutch play this year, Brandon Ingram is 7-26 (26.9%), 0-7 from three, and has 6 turnovers.

For his career he is 58-164 (35.4%) in clutch situations.

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) February 18, 2021

Oh hey look, I'm not the only one who has noticed this.

[Fedupfan]

In 43 minutes of clutch play this year, Brandon Ingram is 7-26 (26.9%), 0-7 from three, and has 6 turnovers.

For his career he is 58-164 (35.4%) in clutch situations.

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) February 18, 2021

Oh hey look, I'm not the only one who has noticed this.

My question is who would be good target if you were to look into a BI trade? Or is it better to just hope he grows? I have the same concerns as you on him.

[luckyman]

''Where was all this talk about him not being a max player?'' we had the conversation last year, and whether or not he was a max player was, in my view, entirely dependent on what max he got. I've literally explained this in this thread once already, not going to do it again.

My question is when does the criticism get allowed? He was bad in the clutch last year, but you know, he's a young player who has ''just ascended'' so it's fine, we accept that. Now he's even worse in the clutch so far this year, but we can't talk about that either because it's only 28 games in. You're saying right now that if he's this bad still at the end of the year, we can talk, but why should I believe that? He sucked last year and we weren't allowed to talk, why should I believe that if we get to the end of the year and he still sucks you won't just turn around and say ''oh well you know, first year with a new coach, shortened season, gotta give him next year too''?

At some point you have to answer to criticism, and when you're being paid $28m and taking the most shots on the team on a daily basis, that point is now.

You're telling me I'm not supposed to be a ''chicken little'', which I'm sure you think sounds very clever, but there's a distinction between panicking and claiming the sky is falling and what I'm doing which is just saying ''hey, I wonder if my concerns that I had over a year ago and which have since been substantiated in a few ways might have been correct''.

The sky isn't falling, but it is looking stormy and I, for one, would like to remember to bring my umbrella.

Earlier in this thread, there was a hot take post that maybe we should trade BI. You responded that you're inclined to agree. If that's not chicken little, I don't know what is. See post above ^^^.

And taking the most shots on a daily basis? He took the THIRD most tonight. He took the THIRD most last night. He took the SECOND most against Detroit. Took the most against Dallas and Chicago, and the SECOND most against Houston.

So in the last 6 games, he's taken the most shots 2xs. But in those last 6 games, he's been first or second in team assists 5xs. As I've said before, he's only averaging 18 shots a game, which is low for a max wing.

I've had to argue about such ridiculous things as Zion's ability to create his own shot here. Which has now disappeared. And as usual, as soon as they win and BI goes for 30 & 7, this same ridiculous talk about Ingram will also miraculously disappear. Par for the course.

[Nichols]

Ingram isn't getting traded lol.. This is what I mean by people going overboard.

He's 23 years old.. Has never had a good coach, and still made the all-star team putting up really good numbers across the board. In addition, he's improved in every statistical category yearly since he's been in the league. The odds of you trading a 23 year old all-star and getting good value is slim.

You make this suggestion as if trading Ingram would cure the Pelicans.. It won't.

[luckyman]

Yeah the trade talk has me done. There is only so much one can sit through.

[Nichols]

Yeah the trade talk has me done. There is only so much one can sit through.

Like 23 year old all-stars grow on trees lol.. I get not being happy with him at present, but trade talks are crazy.

[Fedupfan]

Ingram isn't getting traded lol.. This is what I mean by people going overboard.

He's 23 years old.. Has never had a good coach, and still made the all-star team putting up really good numbers across the board. In addition, he's improved in every statistical category yearly since he's been in the league. The odds of you trading a 23 year old all-star and getting good value is slim.

You make this suggestion as if trading Ingram would cure the Pelicans.. It won't.

No not a suggestion. Just a question. Who would be worth trading Ingram for? I mean Bradley Beal per say. Is he worth letting Ingram go since it pushes Pels timeline forward. I?m a diehard fan, so believe me that I want Ingram to be great. He just isn?t showing it mentally and I?m not sure age is the sole reason.

[Nichols]

No not a suggestion. Just a question. Who would be worth trading Ingram for? I mean Bradley Beal per say. Is he worth letting Ingram go since it pushes Pels timeline forward. I?m a diehard fan, so believe me that I want Ingram to be great. He just isn?t showing it mentally and I?m not sure age is the sole reason.

Beal is one of the best 2's in the league. Of course most teams make that trade. I just don't feel the need to engage in trade speculation regarding a 23 year old all-star playing under a coach with no offensive imagination. Who previously played under a coach who was sub-par. And prior to that coach played under a rookie coach, that had no clue how to develop young prospects. Consider how well, Julius Randle and Clarkson (former Lakers) are playing after getting out of LA. It takes time.

Have some patience boss.

[Pelicanidae]

Beal is one of the best 2's in the league. Of course most teams make that trade. I just don't feel the need to engage in trade speculation regarding a 23 year old all-star playing under a coach with no offensive imagination. Who previously played under a coach who was sub-par. And prior to that coach played under a rookie coach, that had no clue how to develop young prospects. Consider how well, Julius Randle and Clarkson (former Lakers) are playing after getting out of LA. It takes time.

Have some patience boss.

Wild how it's always someone else's fault.

[Nichols]

Wild how it's always someone else's fault.

You're an intelligent poster.. Which is why I've referred to you as our MVP on this forum. But you sometimes say things that make no sense, or suggest you're being disingenuous.

We both know I'm not saying he bears no responsibility, since I already said he does to some extent in a previous post that you commented on.. So why would you even say what you just said???

Everything I said is true. You can't refute it so you rebut with something silly. You're better than that.

[Pelicanidae]

And just to clarify, when I say consider trading him, I don't mean just go out and trade him for the first offer you get. But yeah if you can trade him for an actually good return, preferably another good, reasonably young player, then he's not untouchable.

I guess take calls, rather than actively shop, if that distinction makes it any clearer.

[Pelicanidae]

You're an intelligent poster.. Which is why I've referred to you as our MVP on this forum. But you sometimes say things that make no sense, or suggest you're being disingenuous.

We both know I'm not saying he bears no responsibility, since I already said he does to some extent in a previous post that you commented on.. So why would you even say what you just said???

Everything I said is true. You can't refute it so you rebut with something silly. You're better than that.

We have a top 10 offense. It's not perfect but it's not like Ingram never gets good opportunities or like there's nobody else on the team defenses have to pay attention to. I think it's incredibly cheap to say that you won't even really consider the idea of trades because the coach is bad, and the previous coach was bad, and the coach before that was clueless, etc etc. What's the common denominator here? Multiple coaches with multiple rosters surrounding him on multiple franchises, maybe it's time to just recognise that he's a long way from untouchable.

Again, not saying ship him out the door for the first offer. I'm not saying he's a garbage player. I'm not saying he's the worst player on the team. Of course not.

But if you get a good offer, or if you're going hard for someone you think is perfect in a fit with Zion and they ask for Ingram in return, then you have to consider it. He's no untouchable.

[Nichols]

We have a top 10 offense. It's not perfect but it's not like Ingram never gets good opportunities or like there's nobody else on the team defenses have to pay attention to. I think it's incredibly cheap to say that you won't even really consider the idea of trades because the coach is bad, and the previous coach was bad, and the coach before that was clueless, etc etc. What's the common denominator here? Multiple coaches with multiple rosters surrounding him on multiple franchises, maybe it's time to just recognise that he's a long way from untouchable.

Again, not saying ship him out the door for the first offer. I'm not saying he's a garbage player. I'm not saying he's the worst player on the team. Of course not.

But if you get a good offer, or if you're going hard for someone you think is perfect in a fit with Zion and they ask for Ingram in return, then you have to consider it. He's no untouchable.

Let's start with... "What's the common denominator here".. You say this, as if Ingram hasn't blossomed into one of the better players in the league at only 23 years old. As evidenced by his numbers last season, and every year he's been in the league. He's done this under less than optimal conditions is my point.

You're also framing this argument around the premise that he's being touted as untouchable. No one is saying that. Trading him is just an absurd thing to toss around at this point with the team not playing well collectively and Ingram not being the reason why. Replacing him with comparable talent won't move the needle.

It's also too early to make an assessment about fit with Zion when you don't have a coach that understands how to run an offense. Which is highlighted by the last play of the game they just lost. In which he envisioned would generate something for Zion or Ingram. This is also Zion's first season practically.

[pr1840]

ISO has made up 12.7% of Ingram's shot attempts this season so far, and he has scored 0.95 points per possession on such attempts, which is not great but not dreadful either: he's in the 57th percentile.

By comparison, ISOs make up 10.1% of Zion's shot attempts. He scores 1.24 points per possession on these attempts, good for the 90th percentile.

Don’t care what Ingram’s overall ISO numbers are. Without looking at the numbers I can tell you that in the 4th quarter of games that are within 10 points his ISO % is much higher and his points per possession is much lower. Some pretty awful turnovers in there too. Other than the free throw line, he is the opposite of a clutch time player right now. That’s from watching all games this season, not just the last possession today. He’s s basically taken over Jrue’s role of choking away games in the 4th.

[new city champ]

I've said often that the ideal fit next to Zion is a shooting guard or wing who is a 50/40/90 guy or close to it. It's (fairly) been pointed out that those guys are very, very rare.

Brandon Ingram this year: 47/40/87. Pretty damn close...

[AusPel]

I've said often that the ideal fit next to Zion is a shooting guard or wing who is a 50/40/90 guy or close to it. It's (fairly) been pointed out that those guys are very, very rare.

Brandon Ingram this year: 47/40/87. Pretty damn close...

Ingram also thinks he's the best player on the team

When it's clearly Jax

[luckyman]

I've said often that the ideal fit next to Zion is a shooting guard or wing who is a 50/40/90 guy or close to it. It's (fairly) been pointed out that those guys are very, very rare.

Brandon Ingram this year: 47/40/87. Pretty damn close...

Those 43 clutch minutes for Ingram rank 56th in the league. So it's not like this team has been there often. Lately it's been feast or famine.

Matter of fact, their last clutch game was 8 games ago against Indiana. A game in which BI posted a 30/6/7 box line on 57/50/100 shooting and was 1/3 in the clutch, including a crucial bucket with 42 seconds left. A game they won 114-113.

No "let's listen to offers on BI" hot takes in there tho.

[Pelicanidae]

Don’t care what Ingram’s overall ISO numbers are. Without looking at the numbers I can tell you that in the 4th quarter of games that are within 10 points his ISO % is much higher and his points per possession is much lower. Some pretty awful turnovers in there too. Other than the free throw line, he is the opposite of a clutch time player right now. That’s from watching all games this season, not just the last possession today. He’s s basically taken over Jrue’s role of choking away games in the 4th.

I was asked what his ISO numbers are and I answered. You might not care but that's what I was asked.

[donato]

I can’t believe some on here are even entertaining the idea of trading Ingram. Totally ridiculous.

[ragincaucasian]

Ingram is fine. He just needs to realize when he is not on his game, and actually notice who is on theirs and get the damn ball to them. He goes through the strange stretches where he ball hogs and misses damn near every shot.

Like, DUDE, you can pass pretty well when you want. Just do that sometimes. Or even better, just drive all the way to the rim.

Frustrating loss. You lose your starting center, and still manage to hang in there until the last possession, then chaos on the final play.

[luckyman]

Ingram is fine. He just needs to realize when he is not on his game, and actually notice who is on theirs and get the damn ball to them. He goes through the strange stretches where he ball hogs and misses damn near every shot.

Like, DUDE, you can pass pretty well when you want. Just do that sometimes. Or even better, just drive all the way to the rim.

Frustrating loss. You lose your starting center, and still manage to hang in there until the last possession, then chaos on the final play.

Watch the last play again. How does he get the ball to Zion? Zion came off the pick and rolled to the baseline almost under the goal. Almost as if he was trying to hide. BI even looked his way.

This is a young team with young players. Zion has to learn how to make himself available in a passing lane as well. Demand the ball with a clear way to get it. SVG has to call for better actions. But I'm done with it.



Looks like they attributed Zion's block to Josh Hart. I bet that never gets fixed.

[Fedupfan]

I can’t believe some on here are even entertaining the idea of trading Ingram. Totally ridiculous.

I think the consensus among the ppl that would trade him is if it makes the team better. Which, after a decade of this same stuff, I don’t see why more aren’t willing to do whatever it takes.

[6warddude]

the last play come down to coaching and players.....we had enough time imo to draw up a play with a secondary option if the first play breakdown......

zion couldnt get in a good position to take the last shot.....imo i dont think we had a second play called because ingram had to try and make something happen when he couldnt get the ball to zion.....after that making a pass to someone for a 3....lonzo was open to take the 3 but he passed on it and made a pass to another player....its just like the first pacers game going for the win and we cant execute right.......i wish lonzo would have taken the 3 because he had a clear deep shot to win or loose but i think he would have made it to win the game...

the bench has been better lately so im confident the players will learn from the game winning mess ups.....the core young and still growing....

[6warddude]

I think the consensus among the ppl that would trade him is if it makes the team better. Which, after a decade of this same stuff, I don’t see why more aren’t willing to do whatever it takes.

adding to ingram would make the team better....add a solid player that can knock down shots next to ingram and zion is what we need to win and in situations like last night....