The Ringer Guys Pile On The Pels--and Zion

[new city champ]

Oh boy...don't think these national TV games are doing much for the Pels rep among the NBA commentariate...brutal take on Zion's defense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk2UExlH17E

[Pelicanidae]

''The Ringer''

stop there.

No need to go any further. Dismiss and proceed.

[As I See It]

Everything they have said has been said in this forum before. No new news at all.

Adams is not the perfect fit.
Zion is always a step late on switches.
Players blow by him on his perimeter close outs.
He should lose weight.
He appears disinterested on the defensive end.
He's not the same defensive presence at this level as he was a Duke. It hasn't translated.
Playing him at the five is not an option, only a gimmick.
If playing on one side of the court defines greatness, he would qualify.
Perhaps he's never recovered from his injuries.

All things we've said before.

[PaKwAn]

Yeah, everyone knows about those issues even to the non pelican fans... those generational talent talk didn't help when zion was hyped up to be that next chosen one only to show up like this..still good offensively but still a lot to improve upon... the roster build up doesn't help as well... zion is still young but he has a lot of work to do... glad the hype died this year though, although it has been replaced with mostly criticisms because of the hype media gave him before he even got in the league. I feel sorry for zion though, he seems like he is pressured to do something great because of those expectations..

[PaKwAn]

Just to be clear, i don't see anything wrong with what they were talking about.. those were valid points

[luigi modelo]

yeah, Zion sucks ... https://www.nba.com/pelicans/news/zi...ing-efficiency

[Nola3]

yeah, Zion sucks ... https://www.nba.com/pelicans/news/zi...ing-efficiency

The fair criticism is focused almost exclusively on the other end of the floor

[Fedupfan]

It’s basically the entire roster which has no two way players. The ones that are good at defense can’t even score in a half court offense. One of the reasons why the guys that score 20+ return the favor and get scored on every time.

[DroopyDawg]

It?s basically the entire roster which has no two way players. The ones that are good at defense can?t even score in a half court offense. One of the reasons why the guys that score 20+ return the favor and get scored on every time.

Which has been a problem with this team since forever.

Gotta give credit to SVG for at least trying to make these guys play defense. The entire training camp and short preseason was dedicated to the defensive side, so its not as if Mike D'Antoni is coaching them.

You can't make non-defensive players all of a sudden turn into lockdown defenders overnight.

[luigi modelo]

The fair criticism is focused almost exclusively on the other end of the floor

He's 20 years old, hasn't even played 50 games in the NBA, and is playing for his second coach who introduced a new system. But, ok!

[Pelicanidae]

He's 20 years old, hasn't even played 50 games in the NBA, and is playing for his second coach who introduced a new system. But, ok!

And also, and I'll keep saying this, he's not quite as bad as people say.

Yes, he's a very flawed defender, and an overall negative right now. He's late on closeouts, and he has a severe over-helping problem. His footwork is sub-optimal, absolutely.

But people act like he's a bottom 5 defender in the NBA which is just nonsense frankly, and he has had several games where he's looked pretty good on defense actually. What we need is consistency, and to improve from there, but people are making it out to be far worse than it is.

For example, we all know that impact metrics have trouble capturing defense properly so you have to take them with a grain of salt, but Zion's DBPM is only -1.0. That puts him around 120th in the league right now, which is obviously not great, but it's far from the bottom of the barrel. It's better than, say, Lamarcus Aldridge or PJ Tucker so far this year.

Other metrics show up similarly: Ben Taylor's own BPM model, for example, has Zion's defense at a -0.8, which is pretty much identical to the rating that players like Damien Lillard (-0.7), Steph Curry (-0.6), Brandon Ingram (-0.7), Jerami Grant (-0.8), etc all have. And you don't hear this kind of discourse about them.

[As I See It]

For example, we all know that impact metrics have trouble capturing defense properly so you have to take them with a grain of salt, but Zion's DBPM is only -1.0. That puts him around 120th in the league right now, which is obviously not great, but it's far from the bottom of the barrel. It's better than, say, Lamarcus Aldridge or PJ Tucker so far this year.

Other metrics show up similarly: Ben Taylor's own BPM model, for example, has Zion's defense at a -0.8, which is pretty much identical to the rating that players like Damien Lillard (-0.7), Steph Curry (-0.6), Brandon Ingram (-0.7), Jerami Grant (-0.8), etc all have. And you don't hear this kind of discourse about them.

All of whom are not exactly defensive juggernauts at this stage in their careers. Kindly accept the criticism for what it is...simply criticism. It doesn't suggest that he's incapable; it suggests that he isn't cutting it on the defensive end of the court as of 01/23/21.

Defense has far less to do with skill and much more to do with 'want to'. His apologists always can throw out this stat or that stat to 'protect' him, but he doesn't need to be protected or coddled. If he wants to become the player he can become, he has to decide for himself to 'want to'. It's not on Griffin, SVG, his dad, or even God Almighty...it's strictly on him. It's not 'rocket science'.

[Pelicanidae]

All of whom are not exactly defensive juggernauts at this stage in their careers. Kindly accept the criticism for what it is...simply criticism.

Yes, but this is precisely my point.

Everyone knows that, say, Damian Lillard is not some elite defensive player. He's sort of fine against other point guards and then gets outmatched by basically anyone bigger than him.

Yet none of the popular discourse around Lillard is based on his defense. It's rare for anyone to mention it. There certainly aren't active podcast segments every week about how awful Lillard is defensively. Why? Because he's an incredibly gifted offensive player, and that overshadows his defensive shortcomings.

The same is true for Zion at this point. Is he an elite defender? No. He's a below average defender, with incredible offensive gifts that have him scoring at a historic rate for a player of his age, and a better passer than just the box score would tell you. Yet for some reason with him, we need TV segments, dozens of articles, and hundreds of posts talking about how dreadful his defense is. It's a weird double standard.

If all it was, was some people occasionally pointing out that he's not a great defender, no one would think twice about it. But it feels unusually vehement and large-scale, which doesn't really surprise me because Zion's been getting trash-talked by the media for well over a year now.

If you paid attention to the discourse around Zion you would think he weighs no less than 500lbs, can't walk, lost the ability to jump sometime around August of 2019, is the worst defender in the league, he sulks around everywhere, etc. Way too much negative focus for a 20 year old fewer than 40 years into his career doing historic things.

[Funcrusher]

Yes, but this is precisely my point.

Everyone knows that, say, Damian Lillard is not some elite defensive player. He's sort of fine against other point guards and then gets outmatched by basically anyone bigger than him.

Yet none of the popular discourse around Lillard is based on his defense. It's rare for anyone to mention it. There certainly aren't active podcast segments every week about how awful Lillard is defensively. Why? Because he's an incredibly gifted offensive player, and that overshadows his defensive shortcomings.

The same is true for Zion at this point. Is he an elite defender? No. He's a below average defender, with incredible offensive gifts that have him scoring at a historic rate for a player of his age, and a better passer than just the box score would tell you. Yet for some reason with him, we need TV segments, dozens of articles, and hundreds of posts talking about how dreadful his defense is. It's a weird double standard.

If all it was, was some people occasionally pointing out that he's not a great defender, no one would think twice about it. But it feels unusually vehement and large-scale, which doesn't really surprise me because Zion's been getting trash-talked by the media for well over a year now.

If you paid attention to the discourse around Zion you would think he weighs no less than 500lbs, can't walk, lost the ability to jump sometime around August of 2019, is the worst defender in the league, he sulks around everywhere, etc. Way too much negative focus for a 20 year old fewer than 40 years into his career doing historic things.

Yeah... it's one thing for fans to give him flack for his media coverage, people have always been jealous of the attention Zion's received, but the media suddenly turning on him like they have is kind of surprising (but not really), and ironic. Kinda confirms what the sports media is: a hype machine, that can at any moment do a 180 and bury a player if they're not producing enough hype. There's literally a ringer pod episode on YouTube implicitly comparing Zion to RJ... and RJ might be out of the league after his rookie contract.

[UNO Gracias]

Where is the lie?

[13 - 3]

Seems about right. No lie.

[Eman5805]

In a way, I’d rather hear this than “Zion should demand a trade.”

[UNO Gracias]

People are underwhelmed with Zion, so that talk of him demanding a trade won’t happen until he shows himself to be a top 20 player (at least).

[13 - 3]

Karl Malone calls out Zion Williamson: "Zion needs to be averaging like 40 minutes per game... you're a 21 year old kid... your a** shouldn't be getting tired."

Sheesh. �� (via Knuckleheads Podcast/ @PlayersTribune)

— Legion Hoops (@LegionHoops) January 20, 2021

[Pelicanidae]

Karl Malone calls out Zion Williamson: "Zion needs to be averaging like 40 minutes per game... you're a 21 year old kid... your a** shouldn't be getting tired."

Sheesh. �� (via Knuckleheads Podcast/ @PlayersTribune)

— Legion Hoops (@LegionHoops) January 20, 2021

Zion is 20. Not 21.

When Karl Malone was 20, he wasn't even in the NBA.

So that's 1.

2 is that if anyone wants to hear what Karl Malone has to say about anything, they should have to call a prison to find out. Next time I want to hear from a pedophile I'll hit him up, until then he should keep his mouth shut, frankly.

[Funcrusher]

Zion is 20. Not 21.

When Karl Malone was 20, he wasn't even in the NBA.

So that's 1.

2 is that if anyone wants to hear what Karl Malone has to say about anything, they should have to call a prison to find out. Next time I want to hear from a pedophile I'll hit him up, until then he should keep his mouth shut, frankly.

[13 - 3]

Zion is 20. Not 21.

When Karl Malone was 20, he wasn't even in the NBA.

So that's 1.

2 is that if anyone wants to hear what Karl Malone has to say about anything, they should have to call a prison to find out. Next time I want to hear from a pedophile I'll hit him up, until then he should keep his mouth shut, frankly.

Wel at least he is no longer fat. Remember this

https://clutchpoints.com/pelicans-ne...es-overweight/

[HornetGuru]

Lol, oh you mean out 20 year old player needs to improve? Shocker he’s not a finished product yet. Gtfo the ringer

[da ThRONe]

Yes, but this is precisely my point.

Everyone knows that, say, Damian Lillard is not some elite defensive player. He's sort of fine against other point guards and then gets outmatched by basically anyone bigger than him.

Yet none of the popular discourse around Lillard is based on his defense. It's rare for anyone to mention it. There certainly aren't active podcast segments every week about how awful Lillard is defensively. Why? Because he's an incredibly gifted offensive player, and that overshadows his defensive shortcomings.

The same is true for Zion at this point. Is he an elite defender? No. He's a below average defender, with incredible offensive gifts that have him scoring at a historic rate for a player of his age, and a better passer than just the box score would tell you. Yet for some reason with him, we need TV segments, dozens of articles, and hundreds of posts talking about how dreadful his defense is. It's a weird double standard.

If all it was, was some people occasionally pointing out that he's not a great defender, no one would think twice about it. But it feels unusually vehement and large-scale, which doesn't really surprise me because Zion's been getting trash-talked by the media for well over a year now.

If you paid attention to the discourse around Zion you would think he weighs no less than 500lbs, can't walk, lost the ability to jump sometime around August of 2019, is the worst defender in the league, he sulks around everywhere, etc. Way too much negative focus for a 20 year old fewer than 40 years into his career doing historic things.

We didn't draft Zion to be Lillard, Curry, Ingram, or Grant defensively. We draft him to be a generational 2 way player. If he doesn't become that we are in trouble. Zion will be graded on a different scale from players with less overall potential.

[MichaelMcNamara]

We didn't draft Zion to be Lillard, Curry, Ingram, or Grant defensively. We draft him to be a generational 2 way player. If he doesn't become that we are in trouble. Zion will be graded on a different scale from players with less overall potential.

And to add on, he can be average defensively and be elite. But the Lillard, Curry, Luka, etc comparisions dont work because those guys also make plays for their teammates and do more than just score. They also can have the ball and make a play at the end of games. If Zion becomes that, then I would be fine putting him on that level without the defense. But if he is, instead, Giannis without the rebounding and defensive impact, then he isnt helping your team like those guys are.