December 29th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Phoenix Suns - 2-1

[Funcrusher]

Show me anywhere I ever wrote to remove your pre-draft evaluation. I never told a single soul to do anything.

I said what my evaluation is. And for some reason that gets people fired up. My gut is because, deep down, people are afraid I am right and probably kinda know it themselves.

But I never told anybody to do anything. Unless you tell me I cant evaluate a guy after 30 games. Then, by that logic, none of us can have a prediction on a human being who has played less than 30 NBA games. And if everyone agrees to that, I am cool. I will remove my Zion prediction.

And i'm not even going to go into that, because if I do, i'll say something i regret and get banned. not worth it.

[MichaelMcNamara]

c'mon man. At least check your posts before you assert you've never said things you obviously said.

You quote tweeted a completely different post of mine and I was referring to what you said there. But the point remains. Either we can have theories of who a player might become, or we cant. And if there is some arbitrary amount of time I have to wait to have one, just let me know how many games that is. And if it is less than 30, then we cant project college players.

All that is sound logic. So, just choose the line and I will adhere to it. If its 89 games, I will have my projection ready after game 90. If its 200, I will have it at 201. But whatever it is, I better not see any projections for college prospects, because they all will have played fewer games than this magical line being set.

[As I See It]

If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares.

Then why are you babbling?

[Funcrusher]

Then why are you babbling?

Did you forget to read the end of that post, or...

[MichaelMcNamara]

You can tell when emotion gets involved because people stop debating facts, stop adding to the conversation with new facts, etc and then just attack the person making the argument.

Its sad we can't have a quality debate about something this inconsequential. I mean, its a dumb game. A person who doesnt even know or care that any of us exist. And we can't even debate about that. No wonder political discourse is impossible

[As I See It]

Did you forget to read the end of that post, or...

LMAO!!!

Mac hasn't asserted that everyone has to think like him. He states his POV and others, like you, can't tolerate it. So it's folks like you that can't bear his opinion...not the other way around.

[MichaelMcNamara]

LMAO!!!

Mac hasn't asserted that everyone has to think like him. He states his POV and others, like you, can't tolerate it. So it's folks like you that can't bear his opinion...not the other way around.

Correct. I would love to have an emotionless debate with someone who thinks the opposite of me on this subject and I would actually LOVE for that person to change my mind because I want so bad to believe that we have a future ultra stud on our team that will lead us to titles. I really, really want to believe that. But from what I see, I cant imagine that happening. But if someone can convince me it might be possible, that would actually make me happy.

[Funcrusher]

You quote tweeted a completely different post of mine and I was referring to what you said there. But the point remains. Either we can have theories of who a player might become, or we cant. And if there is some arbitrary amount of time I have to wait to have one, just let me know how many games that is. And if it is less than 30, then we cant project college players.

All that is sound logic. So, just choose the line and I will adhere to it. If its 89 games, I will have my projection ready after game 90. If its 200, I will have it at 201. But whatever it is, I better not see any projections for college prospects, because they all will have played fewer games than this magical line being set.

Again. I have no problems with you having a projection. You can project whenever and whatever you want. But I am providing pushback because

A. This is an online forum, and the purpose of this forum is to share our thoughts/opinions and engage in constructive discourse. Don't get upset when someone challenges your opinion, it's a natural point of conversation. There's no vitriol in that regard

B. Were you not literally claiming in the other thread that everyone who thought Zion still had superstar potential was biased and clouded by pre-draft judgement? And that we as Pelican fans cannot be objective about this for whatever reason? Weren't you that same guy? Saying Grizzlies fans are right to not trade Ja for Zion, and that Ja objectively was better his rookie year? You think you don't deserve pushback for that?

[As I See It]

One question, Funcrusher....

At this point in time, does Zion appear to be a cornerstone on which a franchise can build it's program around?

[Funcrusher]

LMAO!!!

Mac hasn't asserted that everyone has to think like him. He states his POV and others, like you, can't tolerate it. So it's folks like you that can't bear his opinion...not the other way around.

Nope, try again.

Mac literally did this whole thing in another thread where he hilariously declared we as pelicans fans were all objectively biased if we still at this point would take Zion over Ja. it's all there man. He can dress it up any way he wants, it's all there.

[PELICANSFAN]

I've seen very similar vitriol before. It was (some times still is) aimed at me about Anthony Davis. People can't take a different take on situations without taking it personally.

You said Drummond was going to be the better NBA player than AD pretty much on draft day.

[PELICANSFAN]

Wth are yall talking about? No dribble moves? He has consistently and successfully used both a behind-the-back and in-and-out dribble move in his first 30 ish games in this league. Are you going blind when he does this at least twice every game? During the preseason he went right and finished righty against 3 defenders and scored. We talked about that. Offensively, he is FAR FAR ahead of where AD was after just 30 NBA games.

Jesus Christ I gotta avoid this place.

I feel your frustration. It is almost as if many were waiting to destroy him if he did not come out walking on water. He has flaws in his game. He needs to develop a mid-range and become a better FT shooter for starters. It is not like he is stinking up the court, but if you read this site, you would think he was playing like a G-League player.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Again. I have no problems with you having a projection. We can project whenever and whatever you want. But I am providing pushback because

A. This is an online forum, and the purpose of this forum is to share our thoughts/opinions and engage in constructive discourse. Don't get upset when someone challenges your opinion, it's a natural point of conversation. There's no vitriol in that regard

B. Were you not literally claiming in the other thread that everyone who thought Zion still had superstar potential was biased and clouded by pre-draft judgement? And that we as Pelican fans cannot be objective about this for whatever reason? Weren't you that same guy? Saying Grizzlies fans are right to not trade Ja for Zion, and that Ja objectively was better his rookie year? You think you don't deserve pushback for that?

You have zero idea what is in my twitter mentions. But whatever, lets get away from the vitriol you dont believe exists and wouldnt care about even if it did

And yes, I do believe all fans have bias. Hence, fans (fanatic). And yes, Ja has had a better NBA career so far. And yes, Grizzlies fans would take Ja over Zion if offered today. As would I. But no, I dont think its insane to prefer Zion - whether you are a Pels fan, a fan of another NBA team, or a Grizz fan. I think there is an argument to be made there. And I would take Ja. My issue was with the person who basically said the Grizz fans were insane if they'd take Ja and my point was that if things we flipped (we took Ja and Memphis took Zion), and things played out the exact same way so far -- the majority of our fans would prefer Ja. And that wouldnt make them insane

[MichaelMcNamara]

I feel your frustration. It is almost as if many were waiting to destroy him if he did not come out walking on water. He has flaws in his game. He needs to develop a mid-range and become a better FT shooter for starters. It is not like he is stinking up the court, but if you read this site, you would think he was playing like a G-League player.

That is a gross exaggeration. People on one side doubt he can become an all time great. That he has certain red flags that make it incredibly unlikely he will ever reach THAT level. Nobody (but you) said G League player

If we are to have intelligent debates, we must ACCURATELY lay out our opponents case and make counterarguments against the accurate versions of what they say. What you just did above is called a Strawman

[As I See It]

Nope, try again.

Mac literally did this whole thing in another thread where he hilariously declared we as pelicans fans were all objectively biased if we still at this point would take Zion over Ja. it's all there man. He can dress it up any way he wants, it's all there.

Yet, you say:

"If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares."

So which is it, you care, or you don't care?

[PELICANSFAN]

That is a gross exaggeration. People on one side doubt he can become an all time great. That he has certain red flags that make it incredibly unlikely he will ever reach THAT level. Nobody (but you) said G League player

If we are to have intelligent debates, we must ACCURATELY lay out our opponents case and make counterarguments against the accurate versions of what they say. What you just did above is called a Strawman

Did not quote you or reply to you.

[As I See It]

Did not quote you or reply to you.

No, the only First Rounder on our team that has shown, to date, that he's a "G League Player" is Jaxson Hayes. IMO!! And that's not just 28 games.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I will rise above the personal stuff and make my Zion argument clear. If someone disagrees and wants to have an emotionless debate, I would love it. My belief is:

He is limited height and length wise to be an impact two way big a la AD or Giannis, so to be an all time great he would have to do it more like Lebron has as a power perimeter player with all around skill, effort, and intelligence. But he has shown lack of effort and lack of desire to get into absolute peak condition early in his career. That is not the case for all time greats. MJ, Kobe, and others had a lot of skill things they had to work on, but never effort. Never their body.

For Zion to become an all time great level player, he will have to increase his perimeter ball handling, shot making at two of the three other levels, and defense a MASSIVE amount. Massive. On top of that, he will have to shed the tendency to go 1/4 speed for 90 percent of the game and only give one effort, max, per defensive possession.

If it was just skill he had to add, I would say he still has a chance despite being undersized for the position he probably truly is. But when you combine the need for a competitive fire and effort that the greats have, that he doesnt show many signs of having, then I think the odds are massively against him getting to THAT level.

But that is different than saying he is a bum or we should give up on him or whatever other strawmen have been made

[PELICANSFAN]

No, the only First Rounder on our team that has shown, to date, that he's a "G League Player" is Jaxson Hayes. IMO!! And that's not just 28 games.

Thus far, I would have to agree. He probably should have spent some time in the G League.

[PELICANSFAN]

I will rise above the personal stuff and make my Zion argument clear. If someone disagrees and wants to have an emotionless debate, I would love it. My belief is:

He is limited height and length wise to be an impact two way big a la AD or Giannis, so to be an all time great he would have to do it more like Lebron has as a power perimeter player with all around skill, effort, and intelligence. But he has shown lack of effort and lack of desire to get into absolute peak condition early in his career. That is not the case for all time greats. MJ, Kobe, and others had a lot of skill things they had to work on, but never effort. Never their body.

For Zion to become an all time great level player, he will have to increase his perimeter ball handling, shot making at two of the three other levels, and defense a MASSIVE amount. Massive. On top of that, he will have to shed the tendency to go 1/4 speed for 90 percent of the game and only give one effort, max, per defensive possession.

If it was just skill he had to add, I would say he still has a chance despite being undersized for the position he probably truly is. But when you combine the need for a competitive fire and effort that the greats have, that he doesnt show many signs of having, then I think the odds are massively against him getting to THAT level.

But that is different than saying he is a bum or we should give up on him or whatever other strawmen have been made

Don't recall anyone saying you said he was a bum. You are entitled to your opinion and I think you made some legitimate points. I am not ready to write off his competitive fire or compare his body to those of much smaller men. However, your points on his defense, shot making and handle are valid. I prefer to see how that develops. If in 2-3 years he has not made significant strides in those areas, I may agree that his ceiling is not as high as many had anticipated.

[Funcrusher]

You have zero idea what is in my twitter mentions. But whatever, lets get away from the vitriol you dont believe exists and wouldnt care about even if it did

And yes, I do believe all fans have bias. Hence, fans (fanatic). And yes, Ja has had a better NBA career so far. And yes, Grizzlies fans would take Ja over Zion if offered today. As would I. But no, I dont think its insane to prefer Zion - whether you are a Pels fan, a fan of another NBA team, or a Grizz fan. I think there is an argument to be made there. And I would take Ja. My issue was with the person who basically said the Grizz fans were insane if they'd take Ja and my point was that if things we flipped (we took Ja and Memphis took Zion), and things played out the exact same way so far -- the majority of our fans would prefer Ja. And that wouldnt make them insane

Mac, I wasn't talking about your twitter mentions, forgive me if you misunderstood. I'm strictly talking about THIS FORUM. I have no concern with whatever goes on with you there. I'm sure people can be stupid on there, it's twitter after all.

Of course fans are biased. That's nothing particularly esoteric. But I don't think an evaluation of x player from said player's fanbase inherently has to be clouded by said bias. Perhaps that is the case with the average fan, but I do not believe this forum comprises the average fan. I'm sure, speaking generally, most posters here have the requisite self-awareness to acknowledge that bias, and ultimately move past it. And IMO, there are certain things that, at a certain baseline of logic/rationale, become unarguable. Zion being a better player than Ja to this point is one of those things. If we can't come to an agreement on that, that's fine, but I don't entertain this idea that some conclusions will always be drawn subjectively. There can be a universal logic applicable to all subjects, no matter how small.

[MichaelMcNamara]

And based off of what exactly are you asserting this claim that Zion has been a better NBA player than Ja? Lets start there because i disagree with that

[Funcrusher]

I will rise above the personal stuff and make my Zion argument clear. If someone disagrees and wants to have an emotionless debate, I would love it. My belief is:

He is limited height and length wise to be an impact two way big a la AD or Giannis, so to be an all time great he would have to do it more like Lebron has as a power perimeter player with all around skill, effort, and intelligence. But he has shown lack of effort and lack of desire to get into absolute peak condition early in his career. That is not the case for all time greats. MJ, Kobe, and others had a lot of skill things they had to work on, but never effort. Never their body.

For Zion to become an all time great level player, he will have to increase his perimeter ball handling, shot making at two of the three other levels, and defense a MASSIVE amount. Massive. On top of that, he will have to shed the tendency to go 1/4 speed for 90 percent of the game and only give one effort, max, per defensive possession.

If it was just skill he had to add, I would say he still has a chance despite being undersized for the position he probably truly is. But when you combine the need for a competitive fire and effort that the greats have, that he doesnt show many signs of having, then I think the odds are massively against him getting to THAT level.

But that is different than saying he is a bum or we should give up on him or whatever other strawmen have been made

I hope you don't get the impression any of this was personal/emotional on my part. I have no ill will towards you whatsoever. Just providing a divergent opinion/perspective. I'm sure you're a perfectly fine guy, I'm not here to smear your character, particularly on a basketball forum.

[Funcrusher]

And based off of what exactly are you asserting this claim that Zion has been a better NBA player than Ja? Lets start there because i disagree with that

I mean? I don't think making that assertion would be that hard. My argument basically goes like this: significantly better scorer (taking into consideration volume + efficiency) + better impact metrics across the board (with the caveat of Zion having a much smaller sample size of games). I would say they're about equivalent as defenders (below average to downright bad), and Ja's obviously a way better on-ball playmaker, though I don't think the difference overall is massive considering Zion provides so much value off-ball. that would be the gist of my argument.

[SeapeaNOLA]

Just let these clowns have their "I told you so" moment. It's whatever.