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You suggest some are being overly negative regarding Zion. That's your POV (I would never deny that of you, nor criticize you for it).Originally Posted by JJackisangry
I, on the other hand, believe I'm being strictly objective about where he is right now. Why would you (or anybody else) try to stifle my POV? Because it ruffles your feathers in some way?
Mac confronting Zion...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ2GQgs0MR4
I think we can all agree he has a ton of work to do, and it wasn’t my intention to stifle your opinion so I apologize. It doesn’t ruffle my feathers so much as I’m trying to understand why many (not you) are evaluating a player in year 2 in what has been a dysfunctional organization and offseason. Your post just happened to be the most recent so I responded.
I think we have to understand that improvement/progress isn't always clear and linear. We all agree that, at least defensively, Zion has regressed since his Duke days. The problem therein lies in evaluating not the "what," but the "why", especially when it comes to projecting future performance.
If we can all agree that Zion the player brings truly unique conundrums (mainly conditioning and everything that stems from that) and the circumstances around Zion the player are also truly unique (injuries, delayed rookie season, weight spike in the bubble, short offseason) then I think it's fair to say those variables have significantly influenced our perception of Zion the talent. The guy has yet to find himself in a position of stability in the NBA, that I think it's foolish to use this current iteration as a projection of what he is going to be 5 years down the line, which, frankly, is the only point of evaluation that matters.
We know what Zion the talent can be. He's shown that, in ideal circumstances, he's capable of bringing a level of effort and impact that he hasn't shown yet in the NBA. So, atm, I'm comfortable giving him slack for the variance between what he has shown as a talent and what he has done as an NBA player. If anything, I think it's promising seeing how far he's come simply from his bubble performance, which I am the first to acknowledge was pretty bad.
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I'm a believer in simple things. Things like physics and the space things occupy and move through. My belief, based on what my eyes see, is that because Zion is the biggest player that low to the ground that's I've literally ever seen play, it means two things work to his credit. He's going to be MUCH harder to strip the ball from since it's traveling less distance outside of contact and control of Zion's hands. A number of times I see Giannis have to pick his dribble up and do something while he's moving because he knows he'd get the ball swiped.
And being that big and that low, he's just not going to get brick walled by anyone. Defenders will have to do everything to get where Zion is going first and hope he either plows into them for an charge (which good defenders can and will be able to do) or slow him briefly enough for the double.
But...my other belief is that he gets fouled a LOT in those last moments and his work from the line pays off in him being a high 60s to maybe low 70s FT% guy. At least until the crowd is there to muffle the sound of hand slapping the slabs of beef that constitutes Zion's arms.
As for the effort thing...oh yes. I'm deeply worried about the times I see Zion walking or looking like he's pouting. This is the hardest the game has ever been for him and I fear playing for a team that loses more than it wins doesn't bring out more.
I really hope SVG can change that. Someone needs to ride him about his effort. If he's not enough stamina, then he has to know he's got to work even harder on taking care of the most important aspect of his game.
His body.
Yeah, complete nonsense. Like, we have to be real with ourselves here. Ja has pretty much had an ideal rookie season/NBA start while Zion has had the exact opposite of that, and yet the gap between them as prospects IS STILL discernible. Unless people really think Ja has "best player in the world" potential, there's no need to entertain Ja>Zion as though it's an argument made in good faith.
Lets track Zion late in close games this season - both with stats and our eyes. I think he will be much easier to stop than you think. Honestly, he is pretty easy now in the half court. He does most of his scoring when he gets a mismatch or he is off ball and they lose him and he cuts well. That stuff doesnt happen late in games against good teams. When he iso's up and tries to drive, it aint good. The turnovers are high and he doesnt finish a good portion of the time.
Can that change? Of course. He needs to develop counter moves, a floater, etc. All possible. I will critique the skill set more in 5 years if he hasnt developed. All I want now is the effort. And we can make excuses or hope someone can bring it out of him. But my point is THE GREATS didnt need someone to do that for them. Shaq, maybe later in his career after he already won. But I cant think of a great who was 20 and hadnt won anything that was walking up and down the court and needed someone to motivate him to bust his butt
@mcnamara247
Just as a side note: claiming that you're being objective does not actually mean you are. Perfect objectivity is pretty much impossible for a human being to attain for a number of reasons, and might not even be a coherent idea in the first place. So if in future you find yourself trying to back up your own argument by claiming that you're being ''objective'' and that the other person just isn't, maybe wonder if you don't have a better justification for the angle you're taking. If not, maybe rethink your take.
Basketball.
So then Grizzlies fans are just dumb and irrational then, while our fan base can be objective? Because their fan base wouldnt take Zion. But if the situations were flipped, we would be wise and objective and rational and give Zion the benefit of the doubt?
Yeah, that sounds likely
I don't speak for Grizzlies fans. But if they really believe that, yeah, they're dumb and irrational. It's not a matter of claiming objectivity (and Dae already addressed the issue with that line of thinking), it's a matter of common sense. Zion was(still is) a generational prospect. Ja isn't. Zion was better his rookie year. He's better now. I'm not going to entertain this idea that that's not the case, because it has no bearing on reality TO ME. Perhaps there is some universe/reality where I'm wrong, and that's certainly possible, but I know that in the reality I live in Zion is better than Ja. So why would I have any reason to worry about the the nature of my own "objectivity," or lack thereof? Does that even matter beyond theoretical postulating?
Last edited by Funcrusher; 12-27-2020 at 02:48 PM.
Exactly. 'Fan' is a derivative of another word. Fans almost by definition (bias) lose all sense of objectivity when evaluating their own. Remember when Jimmer Fredette was the flavor of the month in these parts?
In what ways has/is Zion "Better"? Because he put up some numbers his first 18 games or so? (then was beyond awful in the bubble, btw - and his team has been a HUGE minus off the court in the bubble and a minus again this year)
Remove the bias. Remove the pre-draft evaluation. In what objective ways has Zion been better as a pro? He puts up more points, which has been proven to be the easiest stat in the boxscore to replace. He hasnt been available, which is more important than any stat. And he still just jogs along all game while Ja goes all out. Ja is also a leader while Zion has shown none of that.
Yes, Grizzlies fans believe that. And yes, I would take Ja today over Zion if I magically had the choice. But since Zion is on our team, I will root for him to be the best player of this generation. But, if I had to bet on it, I think he will fall far below the expectations most people had when he came out
I hope we can get a idea of what he really is (BOON or BUST) before that first money contract. I like the young guy and want to see him blossom (preferably in New Orleans).
Last edited by As I See It; 12-27-2020 at 03:07 PM.
You're assuming bias that isn't there man. And have the audacity to frame the question of Zion being better as bias, because according to you, he merely "put up some numbers" his first 18 games. And then go on to note his on court +/- from a sample of two games. As if his on court impact wasn't significant last year. How can I have a conversation with you when you don't recognize YOUR OWN BIAS? Impossible. I refuse.
Again. If you think Ja has "best player in the world" potential, then simply say it. Those are the expectations being held to Zion. If you don't think he has that potential, what is the point of discussing Ja>Zion?
FORUM QUESTION
Who would you rather...Zion or AD?
AD... duh
For months all I've heard in New Orleans is that AD is no Alpha Star...he's Lebron's Robin.
Yet....
Forgive me, but now I'm really confused if you choose AD.
Last edited by As I See It; 12-27-2020 at 03:33 PM.
Look, as much as I love Zion, I've never had misconceptions about AD. The guy's not a Robin IMO, he's been a top ten player for years, a top 5 player the past few years. You always go with the proven talent over the unproven talent. That's simply the way it is. I would think the same way about rookie LeBron compared, to say, Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett. Projection is nice, and I truly believe Zion has "best player in the world" talent, but there are so many unknown variables that can potentially upend that. AD has realized his projection, he's a baller. Now, considering AD didn't want to stay, I think Zion/Ingram is obviously good compensation. But, if I had to choose between a committed AD and Zion/Ingram, I go AD every time.
I dont think either have that potential. And I did think Zion had that potential when we drafted him, but I am open to changing my mind based on new info. And I cant just watch this guy walk up and down the court and pretend I have ever seen the greats do that at 20. If he is an outlier -- cool, will be so happy to be wrong and change my opinion again. But the way he plays just infuriates me, regardless of the numbers he produces against bad teams and/or when the game is not in the balance
Funcrusher, I think that's all I'm saying (I will not speak for MM, he's highly capable). Right now ZW is nowhere close to being the "best player in the world" because of variables of which you speak (his weight, his health, his age, his proclivity to play defense) Further, I'll argue he's not the best player in the city of New Orleans right now. That doesn't mean I'm against him, I dislike him, I want the team to shop him, or I'd prefer 'Player X' over him; it does mean he's limited right now and it shows...IN MANY MANY WAYS!!! In the third year of his rookie contract he had better show something more than what he has heretofore, otherwise, as Mac has pointed out any times, his true potential might not be realized in New Orleans at all.
If you are so willing to change your opinion on a player that drastically after, checks notes, 26 games, more power to ya. I'm not willing to do that, and I don't believe that's a function of bias. Furthermore, we simply disagree about what he has shown to this point. I'm in no way disappointed by his current production, and I could care less about what the greats of the past did or didn't do at age 20. Let's judge Zion on the merit of his own talent/circumstances, not use past examples as confirmation bias of what we instinctually expect out of current players. If he's still jogging up and down the court in transition at age 25, fine, rip him a new one. He's 20, and has had a less than ideal start to his NBA career. Still manages to be a huge plus on offense (already crazy efficient scorer, and against good competition too, don't know where this narrative has come from, solid passer at this stage, underrated rebounder). I'm pretty fine with where he's at thus far.
Well I'm not of the opinion Ja > Zion. I actually watch Memphis games when I can and I watched them lose to Atlanta yesterday.
Ja was pretty much a matador when it came to trying to guard Trae Young. It's not like Trae was lighting him up on jump shots. He just kept blowing past him on the way to the rim.
So I'm not sure what justifies Ja > Zion at this point. Other than "objectivity" that mysteriously rears its head after a loss.
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Speaking of Ja, if the Lakers win the 2nd pick in the lotto...is the future of the Pels include Ingram and Ja? Ja and Lonzo? Or just Ja, Hart, and filler?
It's an idle thought, not worth expending energy, but I believe the Pels tried to trade up for Ja. So my head is just imaging that team.
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