2021 NBA Draft Discussion

[Pelicanidae]

Why?

6'8 or 6'9 lead ball handlers are very valuable and they don't grow on trees.

- Legitimately fantastic ballhandler and passer at his size. Huge value in that.
- Reads the game exceptionally well, has high tier feel.
- Has shown clear signs that while he isn't a shooter now, it isn't unrealistic for him to develop.
- Actually attacks the paint and drives. Probes well.
- Great mover with agile hip mobility helps him a ton navigating screens on offense and bodes well for his ceiling on defense.
- Reads offenses well on defense, gets a ton of deflections and tipped balls which again, projects well for his defense in time.
- Combine all of these flashes of upside with the fact that he's still very young (still 18, won't turn 19 until October) is extremely enticing.

There are downsides to him right now, sure, there's no doubt about that. Here are some of them:

- Narrow frame and build that helps him navigate screens on offense means he'll probably struggle on defense against larger wings in the NBA even when he adds weight.
- While his defensive flashes are real and encouraging, he can get caught ball watching at times and falling out of engagement
- Jumper needs work to find consistency

But for the most part, those are the kind of negatives and points of improvement that you expect out of 18 year olds. If he had an elite frame and was 100% consistent defensively and shot 40% from 3 every night, he'd be the number one pick Getting a guy like him at 10 would be very good value.

[PELICANSFAN]

We don't want Giddey

Why not?

[bustah]

I'm Australian and love the NBL, watched a lot of Adelaide games as I enjoyed watching Isaac Humphries and was keen to see how well Giddey would go. I also hope that he turns out great for my country. But he struggled from FIBA 3, struggled from the FT, his rebounds were high as he is a bit of a stat finder, defense not great, slow, small wingspan.

His age and ball handling are awesome, but how much ball handling will he be doing, like MM said how will he go without the ball. My guess is not great.

[Pelicanidae]

I'm Australian and love the NBL, watched a lot of Adelaide games as I enjoyed watching Isaac Humphries and was keen to see how well Giddey would go. I also hope that he turns out great for my country. But he struggled from FIBA 3, struggled from the FT, his rebounds were high as he is a bit of a stat finder, defense not great, slow, small wingspan.

His age and ball handling are awesome, but how much ball handling will he be doing, like MM said how will he go without the ball. My guess is not great.

Yeah I just can't agree with fair parts of that. Some of it, I get as a critique even if I don't really see it as negatively as you do (the rebounding, for example) but I didn't think his defense was bad overall at all. Inconsistent, absolutely, but there were real standout moments where he looked good and as I mentioned, he racked up off-ball defense moments all the time.

Struggled from FIBA 3 ... sort of. This is what I meant when I said that he's shown clear signs: his overall 3pt shooting on the season was poor but there was an 18 game stretch in the middle of the year where he shot 37% on good volume. His shot isn't broken, he just needs tweaks because his footwork is a inconsistent - it shouldn't be too big of a deal for an 18 year old to correct.

I just remember last year when LaMelo played in the NBL and he also struggled mightily shooting and finishing, but showed all sorts of ballhandling and passing and was clearly next level on feel just like Giddey is, and then his rookie year he showed that all of that was legitimate. I don't think Giddey is quite the passer that LaMelo is, but he's also far less contact averse and takes better shots in general so there's things you can give him.

I guess overall I'm just willing to give a little bit of benefit of the doubt when it comes to 18 year olds who are clearly still growing into their bodies when they're playing against a league of grown adults, and look for the signs of what they can do (especially when those signs are such valuable ones: again, 6'8 ballhandlers!) than what they can't.

[PELICANSFAN]

Plan A as of today is to trade for a current NBA player. Plan B is to trade back and acquire future picks in that process. Plan C is to stay put and take a guy, likely Moody, Giddey, or Kispert

The issue here is that FA doesnt come first. This draft would be so much easier for the Pels if it did because the Lonzo situation hangs over all this. They dont love him, they dont dislike him. If he were to come back at a reasonable price (4/70-ish), they would happily have him back. But if the offer is way more than that or he simply wont take 4/70 if that is his best offer and drags it out all summer (a common Klutch tactic), it holds everything up.

But if they could get a top vet, none of that would matter and they would just make the deal and figure out Lonzo later. But those guys arent avaialble according to their teams right now. A guy like Sexton is nice but ideally you'd like to make that move after you know what is happening with Lonzo. As of right now, my bet would be on Trade down, followed by trading the pick for a frontcourt player, followed by staying at 10 and taking Moody or Kispert

Would kinda like to take a shot at Sexton (since SGA is a dream).

[Pelifan]

I'm Australian and love the NBL, watched a lot of Adelaide games as I enjoyed watching Isaac Humphries and was keen to see how well Giddey would go. I also hope that he turns out great for my country. But he struggled from FIBA 3, struggled from the FT, his rebounds were high as he is a bit of a stat finder, defense not great, slow, small wingspan.

His age and ball handling are awesome, but how much ball handling will he be doing, like MM said how will he go without the ball. My guess is not great.

Im actually a bit worried about how high his handle is. It's great to play with your head up, but you can't stay so upright vs NBA guards. Easy thing to fix with enough reps, but it's another thing to add to the learning curve.

[bustah]

Im actually a bit worried about how high his handle is. It's great to play with your head up, but you can't stay so upright vs NBA guards. Easy thing to fix with enough reps, but it's another thing to add to the learning curve.

Yeah that's another prob for him at the moment but as said easily fixed. Look I'd love to be proved wrong by him but I'd rather take him 15-20 than at 10.

[Drudkh_]

Yeah I just can't agree with fair parts of that. Some of it, I get as a critique even if I don't really see it as negatively as you do (the rebounding, for example) but I didn't think his defense was bad overall at all. Inconsistent, absolutely, but there were real standout moments where he looked good and as I mentioned, he racked up off-ball defense moments all the time.

Struggled from FIBA 3 ... sort of. This is what I meant when I said that he's shown clear signs: his overall 3pt shooting on the season was poor but there was an 18 game stretch in the middle of the year where he shot 37% on good volume. His shot isn't broken, he just needs tweaks because his footwork is a inconsistent - it shouldn't be too big of a deal for an 18 year old to correct.

I just remember last year when LaMelo played in the NBL and he also struggled mightily shooting and finishing, but showed all sorts of ballhandling and passing and was clearly next level on feel just like Giddey is, and then his rookie year he showed that all of that was legitimate. I don't think Giddey is quite the passer that LaMelo is, but he's also far less contact averse and takes better shots in general so there's things you can give him.

I guess overall I'm just willing to give a little bit of benefit of the doubt when it comes to 18 year olds who are clearly still growing into their bodies when they're playing against a league of grown adults, and look for the signs of what they can do (especially when those signs are such valuable ones: again, 6'8 ballhandlers!) than what they can't.

Having watched about 80% of the games Giddey appeared in for Adelaide this season I couldn't agree more with what you have said. Kid is only 18 and was able to be a huge plus on the court for Adelaide in a competetion widely seen to be just under the level of what Europe produces. Handles, vision, toughness and a strong competetive drive to improve. I have little doubt that Giddey will have a successful career in the NBA.

Make no mistake as well the NBL is a tough league and rookies generally find it incredibly tough to make an impact. There really hasn't ever been someone so young play at such a high level within the NBL with the exception of LaMelo last season. I would say though that overall Giddey's play in my eyes was more impressive that what LaMelo showed last year although I would say that Giddey's ceiling is not on the same level as to what LaMelo can become. I love the intangibles that Giddey brings brings to the table and his defence I think is an underrated aspect of his game. May not be an amazing on ball defender but knows his position within the overall scheme and makes plenty of off ball plays (deflections, steals). He has a great pedigree as well as both of his parents were top level basketballers in Australia, I think this sort of thing doesn't get enough coverage as you see a majority of NBA players these days come from families who have at some point played at either the highest or close to highest level of basketball.

I feel the shooting stuff is also a little overblown, yeah he isn't a sniper by any means but you can at least tell he actively works on his shot and isn't afraid to use it in a game. He has displayed pull up potential which I think is huge and shows that he has confidence when taking those shots even if they don't currently fall with the regularity you would hope to see. Once again though he is 18 and I have no doubt this weakness will turn into at worst.

Saying all of this though I'm still on the fence drafting Giddey as the direction and potential make up of this squad won't let him be the best version of himself that he could be. However I would happy to be wrong on this.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I like Giddey in a vacuum but I cant see how people can exclaim "Point Zion!" and want Giddey above other choices. Yes, you need more than one ball handler in todays NBA, but how is Giddey helping you in the half court when the ball isnt in his hands? It would be like putting Rubio with Lebron. Pre injury Rubio was an awesome playmaker and could set up a set, run an offense, etc. But Lebron is gonna do that on most possessions

Its an issue of overlapping skill sets and when that happens, you sum becomes less than its parts. And its not like Giddey provides value on D if you cant maximize his O.

THATS the argument against Giddey. You cant be both pro Point Zion and pro Giddey IMO

[tdcreator]

If Keon and Jalen Johnson are falling like these mocks are predicting. Then please trade down with OKC and grab them at 16 & 18. Send them to the Gleague this year and be ready for an extended role when we get the 3rd big star.

[Impose]

I think Jalen Johnson could be the steal of the draft.

[msusousaphone]

Guys I'd be good about at 10 (assuming the top 6 and Bouknight are all gone), in order

Keon - I think that the "he cant shoot" narrative is lazy. Its his handle that will make or break him. Ceiling: Donovan Mitchell. Most likely:Oladipo Floor:Tony Allen

Sengun - He will be more than a low post guy Ceiling:K. Love/Sabonis hybrid with better D Most likely:Vucevic Floor:Kanter

Moody - Will all come down to if he can add weight and offensive versatility Ceiling:Middleton Most likely:Ariza Floor:Ronnie Brewer

Giddey - How impactful can he be without the ball? If you are on a team with Zion and Ingram, that matters. Ceiling:Joe Ingles with Rubio's vision Most likely:Toni Kucoc Floor:Old Grant Hill

Mitchell - Like the offensive fit with Zion, but how many positions can he defend at a high level? Ceiling:Gary Payton Most likely:Pat Beverly defense with Mo Williams offense Floor:Kris Dunn

Cant do at 10, but would be happy with a slight trade down (13-19 range)

Garuba - A Faried/Ibaka hybrid if he hits. I just wish he were a tad bit taller. I think he defends 3's and 4's, not 3's, 4's and 5's
Kispert - I would take Joe Harris at 14 or 16. Cant take him in this draft at 10
Wagner - I believe in the defense but I dont believe he gets to even above average at catch and shoot 3's or in creation for himself and/or others in the half court. Fine taking him at 18 or 19 as my 7th or 8th man for the next few years, but I dont see starter unless the other 4 guys are amazing
Jalen Johnson - I dont want this big of a gamble at 10, but give me 16 and 18 and I will use one of those picks for a big swing

I had wanted a vet but your assessment of those players makes me want some of them. Lol.

Man, I'd love to have an Ariza next to Kira, NAW, BI, and Zion.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I had wanted a vet but your assessment of those players makes me want some of them. Lol.

Man, I'd love to have an Ariza next to Kira, NAW, BI, and Zion.

Keep in mind, that they wouldnt be that for a few years. Ariza didnt really impact winning until year 4. Didnt shoot over 33% from 3 until year 6

This is the thing with draft picks - we think of who they will be and slot them into rotations with that in mind. But in reality, the rookie and perhaps even 2nd year version of them will be worse than a player you can get for the league min

[msusousaphone]

I'm cool with that. I'm of the mindset that BI and Ball (should he stay) are another 2 to 3 years away from top level at the least and Zion is about five years away. The Disgruntled Zion Camp rumors are the only things that push my mindset away from being relaxed. But we'd have to cash in these assets for an elite vet or a few great ones to hasten that timeline. Otherwise we're waiting for out stars to blossom.

[RUFshreve]

I just hope we don't burn assets to trade for Lowry. That would be such a short-sighted move that would go against everything Griff has said so far(building for sustainable success). If we trading assets for a starting PG, go get Brogdon, even if the cost is a little higher.

For the draft I want Moody or Sengun. Those are the two I am most confident in having a bright NBA future. I have soured on Mitchell since his measurements came out. Just hard to see a 6'0 PG being a starter in this league, especially since he's not an elite creator for himself or others. I love everything he brings to the table, but those measurements just scare me off at 10. Maybe if we traded back to 16 and 18, I'd take him with one of those and swing for higher upside with the other.

Moody may be similar to Ariza in alot of ways defensively, but I think he has a higher ceiling offensively. He is a better shooter than Ariza. He really is the perfect pick for us. I like Sengun alot because I believe he will develop his three point shot sooner than later, then I really like his fit next to Zion and Jaxson.

[HornetGuru]

I’m really starting to like Kispert, not because of fit, but both fit and value. At the combine he showed he has much better athleticism than expected so the potential to be a good enough defender is there. Not that it matters because we are probably trading back. I’d love if we ended up with springer in the mid to late teens. Kid can be an elite 3 and D. If we can get out of Bledsoe’s contract, sign Lowry, and add springer or kispert id be ecstatic

[Pelicanidae]

I’m really starting to like Kispert, not because of fit, but both fit and value. At the combine he showed he has much better athleticism than expected so the potential to be a good enough defender is there. Not that it matters because we are probably trading back. I’d love if we ended up with springer in the mid to late teens. Kid can be an elite 3 and D. If we can get out of Bledsoe’s contract, sign Lowry, and add springer or kispert id be ecstatic

I think it's unfair to Springer to call him 3&D. I've been arguing for a long time that he's a top 10 talent in the draft: he's actually far better at controlling the pace in driving scenarios than he is as a shooter right now.

Saying that Kispert could be a good enough defender because his athleticism is better than expected is kind of something I agree with, but not for the same reasons. He'll be a fine NBA defender because he's got good feel and a sense of timing off-ball and he works hard to fill his role as a team defender; he'll be a solid enough defender, but not really for anything related to his athleticism. Just my 2 pennies.

[luckyman]

Looks like folks have started paying attention to Isaiah Todd. Now seeing him mocked high 2nd and a couple even late 1st. Just a month ago was mid to late 2nd and a few not even drafted.

If he's still there at 35 or 40, and they still either of those picks, I'd be very happy taking him there. High upside on offense, who I see more as a wing with spot duty in the paint for now.

[Rampart]

There seems to be a decent number of rumors of us giving up 10 just to move Bledsoe. maybe getting 17 in return. Would this only be done if we had something big lined up to use the money for ? It seems silly otherwise as we could sit him this year and he only has ~3-4 million guaranteed afterwards from what i understand.

[Eman5805]

I know we've got a lot of things to do before we even get to it, but...what's the read on the 2022 draft so far? How's it stack up? Emoni Bates and the french beanpole got everyone looking at 2023. But except for Chet, I'm light on who is interesting next year.

Granted, maybe we should be looking at 2023 too. If we flop and Zion wants to flip, that'll probably be a year to sell early. Which...we won't ever do. But it's a thought.

[HornetGuru]

I think it's unfair to Springer to call him 3&D. I've been arguing for a long time that he's a top 10 talent in the draft: he's actually far better at controlling the pace in driving scenarios than he is as a shooter right now.

Saying that Kispert could be a good enough defender because his athleticism is better than expected is kind of something I agree with, but not for the same reasons. He'll be a fine NBA defender because he's got good feel and a sense of timing off-ball and he works hard to fill his role as a team defender; he'll be a solid enough defender, but not really for anything related to his athleticism. Just my 2 pennies.

The more I watch him the more I see a smaller Jimmy butler with a better 3 ball

[Erose]

Me, I?m against moving that pick for future assets, because IMO if Zion and the young guns on this team make a leap, which I think it is highly likely NAW and Kira definitely make leaps, and Zion makes a leap at least defensively, that this number 10 pick in this deep draft will be the best pick that the Pels will have for a while outside of a trade.

My opinion if Kispert is there, draft him at 10. If this guy can be a 40% catch and shoot from 3, in the next 3 years, you are getting a guy that for the Pels to go out and get a veteran to do that are going to be paying $20 plus million a year for.

If I remember correctly Grif said in this end of the year press conference this team need shooting, toughness and IQ and Kispert from what I can see has all three.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MichaelMcNamara]

I think its a pipe dream to think a team can develop NAW and Kira and Hayes and whoever they take 10 while trying to win. And if you take a guy who is higher floor/lower upside like Kispert, then you might as well have traded the pick for someone who is a better version of that now.

Only argument for keeping 10, IMO, is if you identify someone who can have a Paul George, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, etc ceiling

And if you do, then you also gotta trade one of your younger guys who you dont see having that ceiling and put your develolmental assets into this 10th pick.

Like for me, maybe Keon or Giddey have that ceiling. But if I take them, at least one of NAW or Kira has to go for a vet and I put developmental resources into the new guy

[Pelicanidae]

The more I watch him the more I see a smaller Jimmy butler with a better 3 ball

His patience on ball and his combo of pace control while driving and absurd physical strength reminds me a lot of Jrue, actually. Jrue's been a master of that ''he's driving and it looks weirdly slow but somehow he's just getting by everyone'' kind of thing that Springer also does very well.

I get the temptation for people to look at his 3pt% and imagine him as a deep range sniper but that's not really his game. The volume is fairly small right now and he's not hitting like 4 pullups a game. That said, the high percentage and the good FT numbers are encouraging and I do think he can be/will be a good shooter in the NBA as well. Just not quite the archetype some people are imagining.

[Eman5805]

Is there a universe where Zion and Giddey are compatible? One of them would need to become a very good off ball contributor. Or at the very least able to feast more in limited touches because you’ll want one of them being ball dominant.