2021 NBA Draft Discussion

[hornetzplaya]

Let's say Minnesota get top 3 pick. Would you trade BI for Beasley, Culver, McDaniels and top 3 pick to draft Suggs? I would.

Honestly I would love this trade especially if we keep our 1st round pick as well (Maybe even ship out Lonzo for some decent pieces.). It would give us a LOT more versatility (Don't see them giving up that pick though). However, for one, doesnt Ingram have a 15% trade kicker if we trade him on this new deal? I think he does so that's one thing to be aware of for the next 4 years for them.

If that deal comes about, i say we take it in a heartbeat. however it will set us back like 2 or 3 more years before we're even close to elite if we keep this core of players.

Edit: Let me just add... There's no way were trading Ingram, this is just a pipe dream..... Unless its someone we REALLY value. Like a KAT, Beal, etc. But i wouldn't mind a trade like this thinking for the future.

[13 - 3]

I would not move Ingram . Why are we in rush to move him?

[Eman5805]

I would not move Ingram . Why are we in rush to move him?

It’s less I’m rushing. It’s more I do not consider him untouchable.

[MichaelMcNamara]

He wont be moved this offseason. And no backwards move will happen. This team might not go all in on a Beal, and maybe they dont even trade the lotto pick for a Brogdon or Grant or Nance, etc. but they sure as heck arent going to get younger and move the timeline back. Only way Ingram gets moved is for someone CLEARLY better than him. And I am not even talking Beal level. I mean, if somehow a Jokic or a Embiid or a Lillard demands out. Which aint happening. That dont mean Ingram will never be moved, but it sure isnt happening this summer

[Pelicanidae]

It’s less I’m rushing. It’s more I do not consider him untouchable.

Barely anyone is untouchable. I'm not hunting for Ingram trades but he's hardly off limits if something great comes up. Ingram's very good, so the odds of such a trade coming up are very small, but if it does he can go; he's not a top 10 player and he doesn't project as one either, so why would he be untouchable?

[Pelicanidae]

Lol I get what you're saying. I just see Suggs as a franchise PG. He reminds me so much of CP and Lowry but bigger and more athletic. He's a winner. More of a winner than BI. I think NAW/Zion/Hayes would enjoy going to battle with him every night. I believe he would transform the mentality of this team the second he walks through the door.

I think this is an incredibly dodgy read of Suggs, to be honest. He has more in common with Lonzo than he does CP3 - not saying he is exactly like Lonzo, but if there's a slider between ''pure connective off-ball guy'' and ''pure point'', Suggs is closer to the former than the latter.

[hornetzplaya]

This offseason... I don't think we'll make a splash in trades (or any big ones besides for Bledsoe and seconds for a decent player or maybe for cash considerations). We resign Lonzo for about 20M a year. Then i think we're going to use our first rounder assuming its #10 or so and AT LEAST one second rounder (personally i want Kessler Edwards. A little unproven and lanky but the dude can ball and i see him as a 3&D player). Then after that, we go into the season with pretty much the same roster. We've gotten better as the season has gone on and I say we keep the foundation and let the players grow.

Edit: Who we take with that FRP? I have no idea. im just going to have trust in Griff. He hasn't done bad in the draft imo.

[luckyman]

Ingram is going no where. You don't trade 23 year old all stars who already have nearly elite offensive skills on high efficiency.

If you look at supposed "top 10" players today, and look at where they were as 23 year old players, then the extreme ridiculous notion of trading Ingram becomes apparent. The only outlier would be Kevin Durant, who was already a top 3 player in the league by that age.

Priority #1 is to fix that back court. In the draft they need to add a few more quality draft picks, or even just one pick from this draft. There are just too many options to completely pass up.

Priority #2 is to make sure your young core continues to improve in the off season and comes back better next year. Thats the whole point of building this way. The main improvements need to come on team defense.

[As I See It]

What have we traded away or let slip through our fingers over the last five years for whatever reason....

PG - Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo, Elfrid Payton.
SG - Buddy Hield, E'Twaun Moore
SF - Nikola Mirotic, Kenrich Williams
PF - Anthony Davis, Kenrich Williams
C - Julius Randle, Christian Wood

It may not be a Championship team, but it's not without considerable talent. What was Alvin doing?

[HoustonPelicans]

He wont be moved this offseason. And no backwards move will happen. This team might not go all in on a Beal, and maybe they dont even trade the lotto pick for a Brogdon or Grant or Nance, etc. but they sure as heck arent going to get younger and move the timeline back. Only way Ingram gets moved is for someone CLEARLY better than him. And I am not even talking Beal level. I mean, if somehow a Jokic or a Embiid or a Lillard demands out. Which aint happening. That dont mean Ingram will never be moved, but it sure isnt happening this summer

We may get younger but I don't think we would move the timeline back personally. Suggs is ready to go from day one. He's a dog and a winner. Plays both sides, high IQ. Beasley is putting up 20ppg. Culver still has great potential. We can add solid vets like Otto Porter, trade for Horford, DJ Augustin around those guys. Bring back Josh Hart.. Feature Zion and build a strong defensive unit. We would be much better next year.

Ingram is an elite scorer, I'll give him that. But his defense just isn't there and its from a lack of effort. He also doesn't seem to care about winning first and foremost. I think his numbers and how he's playing come before winning in his mind. I look at Zion and how upset he is from losing and missing the playoffs in basically just his 1st real season. I haven't seen Ingram that upset about losing and he's been losing his entire career. I still think Ingram can develop into winner, he won 4 state championships in high school. He comes from winning. Ingram is great but I think much more higher about Suggs. I think Suggs has a bigger impact from day 1.

I understand no one will agree to move Ingram unless for a clear cut better player. But creative, visionary moves are what take teams to the next level.

[HoustonPelicans]

I think this is an incredibly dodgy read of Suggs, to be honest. He has more in common with Lonzo than he does CP3 - not saying he is exactly like Lonzo, but if there's a slider between ''pure connective off-ball guy'' and ''pure point'', Suggs is closer to the former than the latter.

I don't agree. Suggs is great off ball and on ball. He's not a connector player. He can lead an offense and break down a defense. He's a much better scorer and playmaker than Lonzo

[luckyman]

We may get younger but I don't think we would move the timeline back personally. Suggs is ready to go from day one. He's a dog and a winner. Plays both sides, high IQ. Beasley is putting up 20ppg. Culver still has great potential. We can add solid vets like Otto Porter, trade for Horford, DJ Augustin around those guys. Bring back Josh Hart.. Feature Zion and build a strong defensive unit. We would be much better next year.

Ingram is an elite scorer, I'll give him that. But his defense just isn't there and its from a lack of effort. He also doesn't seem to care about winning first and foremost. I think his numbers and how he's playing come before winning in his mind. I look at Zion and how upset he is from losing and missing the playoffs in basically just his 1st real season. I haven't seen Ingram that upset about losing and he's been losing his entire career. I still think Ingram can develop into winner, he won 4 state championships in high school. He comes from winning. Ingram is great but I think much more higher about Suggs. I think Suggs has a bigger impact from day 1.

I understand no one will agree to move Ingram unless for a clear cut better player. But creative, visionary moves are what take teams to the next level.

Suggs is also my pipe dream and has been my #1 prospect for while now. I agree.

I also highly disagree with moving Ingram. Players like him don't grow on trees and you're certainly not going to get equal or better value for him.

You find creative ways to add Suggs to Ingram/Zion, not swap him for Ingram.

[Pelicanidae]

I don't agree. Suggs is great off ball and on ball. He's not a connector player. He can lead an offense and break down a defense. He's a much better scorer and playmaker than Lonzo

Completely disagree. His shotmaking regressed fairly hard over the course of the season and his handle was never particularly high level. The outcome of that was that whenever he was on-ball, the results were massively mixed: he has very little shake and creativity with the handle which makes the floor on his decision making really high. If you can't create anything at will, you have to make sure your initial choices are dynamite and his just aren't, which made his fairly turnover prone at times. He's also a mediocre finisher, and he's neither noteworthy when it comes to strength or burst (though he's not terrible with either) which can make it difficult for him to even get advantageous position against better defenders.

You've taken my Lonzo comparison far too literally: I literally said that he is not ''exactly'' like Lonzo, just closer to that end of the slider than the CP3 end. He is a better scorer and half-court playmaker than Lonzo is, absolutely: if he wasn't, I wouldn't have him in my top 5. But the gulf between Lonzo and Chris Paul is huge and Suggs lays somewhere in the middle, not at the CP3 end.

I still like him, and I have him comfortably in my top 5, and I can also see a very good argument for him at #3, but the idea that he's a future Chris Paul, or even a future primary NBA creator or, as luckyman says, the #1 prospect, I think is incredibly farfetched.

[tdcreator]

I want the other Jalen, Green. As much as it pains me but I think we keep Lonzo, so in that case we need a star SG in a bad way. Kira and NAW can run the second unit. I’d keep a couple of the seconds (preferably for a wing like Hyland and a big like Isaiah Todd) and send them overseas for the next couple years for when we need cheap players on a top heavy team.

[As I See It]

We may get younger but I don't think we would move the timeline back personally. Suggs is ready to go from day one. He's a dog and a winner. Plays both sides, high IQ. Beasley is putting up 20ppg. Culver still has great potential. We can add solid vets like Otto Porter, trade for Horford, DJ Augustin around those guys. Bring back Josh Hart.. Feature Zion and build a strong defensive unit. We would be much better next year.

Ingram is an elite scorer, I'll give him that. But his defense just isn't there and its from a lack of effort. He also doesn't seem to care about winning first and foremost. I think his numbers and how he's playing come before winning in his mind. I look at Zion and how upset he is from losing and missing the playoffs in basically just his 1st real season. I haven't seen Ingram that upset about losing and he's been losing his entire career. I still think Ingram can develop into winner, he won 4 state championships in high school. He comes from winning. Ingram is great but I think much more higher about Suggs. I think Suggs has a bigger impact from day 1.

I understand no one will agree to move Ingram unless for a clear cut better player. But creative, visionary moves are what take teams to the next level.

By draft, over the last five drafts, these are the only players out of the Top 10 players picked to be elected to either an All NBA Team or All Star Team

2015: (3) Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russel, Kristaps Porzingis
2016: (3) Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown
2017: (1) Jayson Tatum
2018: (2) Luka Doncic, Trae Young
2019: (2) Zion Williamson, Ja Morvant
2020: To early to tell, but nobody merited the All Star Status.

So in the 5 drafts prior to 2020 that's 50 players picked in the top 10 picks. Of those 50 players picked exactly 11 have merited league recognition of some sort (two are Pelicans). So if you want to trade the only All Star Player on our team who is capable of scoring from three levels to speculate on a player who has about a 22% chance of working out at the traded player's level in the first five years, have at it. For every Luka Doncic or Jayson Tatum, there are far more Jahlil Okafor's, Markelle Fultz', Marvin Bagley's, and Dragan Bender's to chose from.

There is no way we should trade away a proven talent (who is only 23 year old) for a definite, maybe. That's like trading away a top performing executive in your organization for a 19 year old college freshman who has the 'look' but hasn't proven a thing in the real world and saying, "Watch out for the Pelicans five years from now". The Zion Window is not that wide.

[HornetGuru]

I want the other Jalen, Green. As much as it pains me but I think we keep Lonzo, so in that case we need a star SG in a bad way. Kira and NAW can run the second unit. I’d keep a couple of the seconds (preferably for a wing like Hyland and a big like Isaiah Todd) and send them overseas for the next couple years for when we need cheap players on a top heavy team.

Jalen Green is going to be a stud and is my third rated prospect, well above Suggs tho. He screams a mixture of Donovan Mitchell/Kobe to me

[donato]

If we're getting into random ideas of somehow trading into the top 3, why not unload Kira + Bled + warchest of picks (4-7 1sts?) for Shai + Kenrich.

Jaxson
Zion
Ingram
Nickeil Alexander-Walker
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander

Besides how hilarious it would be to have two 3 name guys in the starting lineup, we'd also have a fair amount of cap room cause his cap # is so low next season. We could let Lonzo go and overpay for bench depth shooters then just lock in on that roster going forward.

[HoustonPelicans]

Completely disagree. His shotmaking regressed fairly hard over the course of the season and his handle was never particularly high level. The outcome of that was that whenever he was on-ball, the results were massively mixed: he has very little shake and creativity with the handle which makes the floor on his decision making really high. If you can't create anything at will, you have to make sure your initial choices are dynamite and his just aren't, which made his fairly turnover prone at times. He's also a mediocre finisher, and he's neither noteworthy when it comes to strength or burst (though he's not terrible with either) which can make it difficult for him to even get advantageous position against better defenders.

You've taken my Lonzo comparison far too literally: I literally said that he is not ''exactly'' like Lonzo, just closer to that end of the slider than the CP3 end. He is a better scorer and half-court playmaker than Lonzo is, absolutely: if he wasn't, I wouldn't have him in my top 5. But the gulf between Lonzo and Chris Paul is huge and Suggs lays somewhere in the middle, not at the CP3 end.

I still like him, and I have him comfortably in my top 5, and I can also see a very good argument for him at #3, but the idea that he's a future Chris Paul, or even a future primary NBA creator or, as luckyman says, the #1 prospect, I think is incredibly farfetched.

I'm sorry I just don't agree with this assessment at all. Strength and burst are 2 of his greatest attributes and you said they're not noteworthy not true. His handle could be tighter, but he knows how to give enough misdirection to get his player leaning. You're basically saying Kyle Lowry and Dame Lillard are limited playmakers because they don't have the flashy handle. He knows how to get to his spot and his handle is good enough to keep defenders off balance. Also, I said he reminds me of CP and Lowry, basically a mix of their games. He's not going to pound the ball like Chris Paul but there are some elements such as his speed, creativity and relentless ability going down hill that reminds me of a young Chris Paul.

[Pelicanidae]

Since we're talking about Suggs/Green, etc, I may as well throw my controversial take in, which is that I think Jaden Springer is massively underrated as a prospect and should be a consensus top 10 pick.

Right now, he's ranked 22nd by Tankathon, 28th by ESPN, 22nd by Sports Illustrated, etc. This seems bonkers to me.

He averaged 13/3/3 in college on 47/44/81 splits (57%TS, the 3pt shooting was low volume), had a .441 FTr, STL and BLK% both over 2%, and put up numbers consistent with that or better in conference play as well, where he averaged 13/3.5/3.3 on 46/40/80 splits while upping his FTr to .478 and increasing his STL% from 2.3% to 2.9%.

I do think he lacks a bit of the truly elite passing that some other prospects in this class have (Cade obviously being primary, but also Suggs is very good, Giddey and Sharife also excellent passing guards) but he's not bad by any means, and he's a much better defender than some of those guys (Giddey, Sharife come to mind).

He plays with a sense of patience and maturity to his game that's arguably far beyond his years, complementing that patience with really excellent footwork. The number of awkward, stop-start finishes I've seen him make while absolutely crowded with defenders just by waiting for the right time and using pace to his advantage is kind of remarkable. He actually reminds me a little of Jrue in terms of being a wide, physically powerful guard who isn't an explosive athlete but who has high level body control and enough strength to willingly take contact on drives without reservation. His midrange game is also pretty well developed as well, which combined with the high efficiency (though low sample) of shooting from college and his excellent FT% makes me believe there's probably some 3pt equity from him even if he's not going to be a mega high volume sniper in the league. Really solid defender as well who bodies up, good hands, has really strong anticipation.

Playing for Tennessee probably didn't help, he was playing with Keon who got a lot of shine and obviously Tennessee didn't have the success that teams like Gonzaga did which is partially what has helped propel the Suggs support, but I don't think that justifies him being as low as the 20s. If someone forced me to pick a Jrue/Lowry variety of player in this draft (in terms of style, not necessarily impact at the NBA level) Springer would probably be my bet.

[HoustonPelicans]

By draft, over the last five drafts, these are the only players out of the Top 10 players picked to be elected to either an All NBA Team or All Star Team

2015: (3) Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russel, Kristaps Porzingis
2016: (3) Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown
2017: (1) Jayson Tatum
2018: (2) Luka Doncic, Trae Young
2019: (2) Zion Williamson, Ja Morvant
2020: To early to tell, but nobody merited the All Star Status.

So in the 5 drafts prior to 2020 that's 50 players picked in the top 10 picks. Of those 50 players picked exactly 11 have merited league recognition of some sort (two are Pelicans). So if you want to trade the only All Star Player on our team who is capable of scoring from three levels to speculate on a player who has about a 22% chance of working out at the traded player's level in the first five years, have at it. For every Luka Doncic or Jayson Tatum, there are far more Jahlil Okafor's, Markelle Fultz', Marvin Bagley's, and Dragan Bender's to chose from.

There is no way we should trade away a proven talent (who is only 23 year old) for a definite, maybe. That's like trading away a top performing executive in your organization for a 19 year old college freshman who has the 'look' but hasn't proven a thing in the real world and saying, "Watch out for the Pelicans five years from now". The Zion Window is not that wide.

There's only one person in this draft I would trade Ingram to move up for and that's Suggs. Wouldn't even do it for Cade. I get your list but I'm not saying watch out for the Pelicans five years from now. I'm saying we would be immediately better.

I see some of us are just not honest about BI because he's a Pelican. Well let's look at wing stars and how they performed at 23 since people believe Ingram is of that caliber.

Paul George - 21.7 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 3.5apg, playoffs
Kawhi Leonard - 16.5 ppg, 7.2rpg, 2.5apg, playoffs
James Harden - 25.9ppg, 4.9rpg, 5.8apg, playoffs
Kobe Bryant - 25.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 5.5 rpg, championship
Dwayne Wade - 24.1 ppg, 6.8apg 5.2rpg, playoffs
Lebron James - 30 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 7.2 apg, playoffs
Vince Carter- 25.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.9 apg, playoffs
Carmelo Anthony- 25.7 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, playoffs
Giannis - 26.9 ppg, 10rpg, 4.8 apg, playoffs
Brad Beal - 23.1 ppg, 3.5 apg, 3.1 rpg, playoffs
Jayson Tatum (22)- 26.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, playoffs

All of them had their teams in the playoffs at that age. They were winners. Ingram hasn't been that. He doesn't even seem too fazed about losing. When his shot is off, he don't find other ways to help the team win. He just tries to shoot himself back on. Zion brings it every night. Thats a true alpha. BI is not that, but he thinks he is. I don't want to start ragging on BI, because I actually like him. I have only ever considered trading him in this trade. But I just think we need to be real about what he is. If Jordan played next to BI instead of Pippen, he wouldn't have won 6 rings because BI only going to war on one side of the ball. Thats why question if he's even the perfect sidekick for Zion. Zion at least gives effort on defense when he's not being overworked on offense. I haven't seen Ingram give effort in 2 seasons and he's older. Thats why I would trade him for Suggs. Suggs would go to battle with this team night in and night out on both ends. Ingram just wouldn't or haven't.

[Pelicanidae]

I'm sorry I just don't agree with this assessment at all. Strength and burst are 2 of his greatest attributes and you said they're not noteworthy not true. His handle could be tighter, but he knows how to give enough misdirection to get his player leaning. You're basically saying Kyle Lowry and Dame Lillard are limited playmakers because they don't have the flashy handle. He knows how to get to his spot and his handle is good enough to keep defenders off balance. Also, I said he reminds me of CP and Lowry, basically a mix of their games. He's not going to pound the ball like Chris Paul but there are some elements such as his speed, creativity and relentless ability going down hill that reminds me of a young Chris Paul.

He's got decent strength but it's not outlier level, and I really just don't see notable burst at all tbh. He's not a stiff or anything but when he drove in college he was regularly unable to get that first step on college defenders. Part of that is handle related; the shake just isn't there, but the burst is a factor as well.

Lillard and Lowry are limited playmakers compared to CP3, I don't really think that's contentious. The reason that someone like Lillard is able to be an effective playmaker in spite of those handle/creativity concerns (he's a better handler than Suggs anyway, but that's not the point really) is that he's an insane scoring threat and his defenders have to over-play everything as a result of that, which opens things up. Suggs is not that level of on-ball threat, at least not right now: people worry about Lillard because if they don't press up on him he'll drop a 26 foot pullup on them and hit them at 38%+: Suggs is not yet that level of shooter. Maybe one day he will be, I don't deny that he will improve (Again, if I didn't think he'd improve I wouldn't have him top 5) but right now he does not and will not have anything close to that level of impact due to those limitations.

Gonzaga was honestly a blessing for Suggs because they were able to put him in the perfect position to maximise basically all of his strengths and minimise almost all of his weaknesses, and it's done a wonder for his public perception. Let this be a lesson to all NBA prospects going to college: pick your college wisely, the position they put you in can change your perception massively.

[Pelicanidae]

As a side note, Kings won tonight which means we're now tied with them for the 9th pick. We lose tomorrow and we move ahead of them and are also mathematically eliminated from the play ins

[As I See It]

AD has become such a diva!! He belongs in LaLaLand.

[Eman5805]

So how does this work? We need the Bulls to somehow beat the Bucks, Nets, and Raptors? While we ourselves need to drop every game?

[Pelicanidae]

So how does this work? We need the Bulls to somehow beat the Bucks, Nets, and Raptors? While we ourselves need to drop every game?

I believe, and I may be wrong here because I haven't checked and I am on a lot of painkillers, that because the Bulls won the season over us, we get the higher pick if we tie. So they don't need to win everything, I don't think. They'd still have to win 2 though, which is obviously difficult. That said, the Raptors are not as impossible as you might think (they are 27-42 and have a worse record than the Bulls right now, having lost 6 of their last 7). So really they just need to steal one against the Bucks or Nets.

Bucks have lost to the Spurs by +20, and both Houston and Atlanta by 7 in the last few weeks. Nets have dropped 4 of their last 5, and overall have a losing record when Harden doesn't play.

I don't think it's likely that we'll surpass the Bulls, sadly, but I also don't think it's quite as impossible as it would be if they had to win all three. It's unlikely but at least not completely ridiculous that they could beat the Raptors and then win one of the other two.

But in all those scenarios, we would have to drop all three.