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Thread: Jrue Holliday is everyone's "missing piece"

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN View Post
    3 team trade:

    Warriors: Holiday and Miller
    Pels: 2nd pick, Randle, Gibson (team option) and 2021 Minny pick (top 3 protected)
    Knicks: Wiggins and pick 13
    I need a N-Med scan because I think you gave me cancer with that trade.

  2. #102
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    I need a N-Med scan because I think you gave me cancer with that trade.
    Wasn't my trade.
    It popped up on my news feed.

    Still think its better than having Wiggins and getting the 2nd pick.

    Randle has only one year left, Gibson is a good leader and the 2021 pick is top 3 protected.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN View Post
    Wasn't my trade.
    It popped up on my news feed.

    Still think its better than having Wiggins and getting the 2nd pick.

    Randle has only one year left, Gibson is a good leader and the 2021 pick is top 3 protected.
    Randle has one year left and I do not want him on this team, so in my mind it's unlikely that he would be resigned. Gibson is a good leader but he's also 35 and clearly on the decline. Neither of those pieces would be on the team beyond the very short term future and neither of them are particularly valuable.

    So you're trading Jrue+13 for, essentially, the #2 pick in a bad draft and a top 3 protected future pick.

    Awful trade.
    Basketball.

  4. #104
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Randle has one year left and I do not want him on this team, so in my mind it's unlikely that he would be resigned. Gibson is a good leader but he's also 35 and clearly on the decline. Neither of those pieces would be on the team beyond the very short term future and neither of them are particularly valuable.

    So you're trading Jrue+13 for, essentially, the #2 pick in a bad draft and a top 3 protected future pick.

    Awful trade.
    I didn't say it was good.
    I said it was better than Wiggins + 2nd for Jrue

    I'd prefer to keep Jrue if any of these were the options.

  5. #105
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Draymond Green does not seem to have much left and could see him being a malcontent having to go from Warriors to Pelicans. Not sure I would make that trade.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Jamal Murray is a defensive turnstile who has never even hit league average efficiency on the offensive end, and who has yet to demonstrate anything even resembling consistency.

    If you consider that more valuable (today, as in, if the Nuggets want to try and win a championship next season, not 6 seasons from now) than probably the best two way guard in the NBA, then you're free to do that but personally I disagree.

    Now, of course if the Nuggets don't think that Jrue is what will push them over the edge, then they don't make the trade. That's fine, and neither of us are psychic so we don't know their internal evaluations. But if they do think that he is that guy to pair with Jokic, then they pay up. That's how things work: we don't have to trade Jrue, so we set the price. It's up for other teams to meet it, or not, depending on how desperately they want him.

    And they're two unprotected firsts from a team that, in this scenario, think they're going to be title contenders. I cannot tell you how little Denver, who didn't even bother taking a FRP in the 2019 draft and constantly pick in the mid 20s, cares about their FRPs. If you tell them ''you can be in the conversation for a ring in the next few seasons, but it will cost you the 24th pick in 2023'' they will take that deal 90% of the time.
    This isn?t all quite true

    And if it was, why would the pelicans even bother making this deal (bad player and bad picks)?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by NugzFan View Post
    This isn?t all quite true

    And if it was, why would the pelicans even bother making this deal (bad player and bad picks)?
    Jamal Murray just had an incredible playoff run. Don't let that fool you into thinking that those things were not true when they were written.

    I issue one correction. Jamal Murray has had one season where he was above league average in efficiency, his sophomore year.

    League Average TS% each year of his career: 55.2%, 55.6%, 56%, 56.5%
    Jamal Murray's TS% each year of his career: 51.8%, 57.8%, 53.9%, 55.8%

    What else is incorrect? That he's a poor defender? That's true, and is backed by both the eye test and the statistics (he's got a -0.7 DPIPM, for example, has never posted a positive net rating, has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, etc).

    As for my point about him not being consistent, that's just basic truth about him.

    The reason the Pels might do this trade is that you're betting on a mediocre player (not bad) who has shown signs of having something special. You might lose that bet, but if you think the upside is there (which this playoff run demonstrated it might be) then it's fair to take a swing.

    In any case, it's a bit weird to reply to this 6 weeks after the initial post, after Murray's playoffs explosion changes the evaluation a bit.

  8. #108
    George Karl: "There is talk of Jrue Holiday landing with the Clippers, Pacers and other contenders. But I told @Adam_Mares recently the Nuggets want this guy next to Jamal Murray! Even if they need to be bold and throw a MPJ into a trade to make it happen!!" 6 hours ago ? via Twitter CoachKarl22



    George Karl coached there for nine years not so ago. I'm sure he still has some contacts and insight into the organization. MPJ would be a nice pick up for Holiday and don't forget, until we hear otherwise, Wes Unseld Jr, a current Nugget coach is still under consideration for the Pelican job. I know the two stories are unrelated, but it makes for interesting thought.
    Last edited by As I See It; 10-02-2020 at 11:45 AM.

  9. #109
    Hollygrove 4 Life DroopyDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    George Karl: "There is talk of Jrue Holiday landing with the Clippers, Pacers and other contenders. But I told @Adam_Mares recently the Nuggets want this guy next to Jamal Murray! Even if they need to be bold and throw a MPJ into a trade to make it happen!!" 6 hours ago ? via Twitter CoachKarl22
    Oh my...

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by DroopyDawg View Post
    Oh my...
    Oh wow, even if they were bold and threw in MPJ!

    Alongside what other assets? Cause MPJ himself isn't getting the job done. Regardless of his offensive abilities his health is still an enormous issue, his mentality is very blatantly not good, his defensive projection is still poor at least partly due to the health issue, etc. He alone isn't worth a Jrue trade.

    So what else? Obviously no Jokic or Murray at this point. Harris? Nah, sorry.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Oh wow, even if they were bold and threw in MPJ!

    Alongside what other assets? Cause MPJ himself isn't getting the job done. Regardless of his offensive abilities his health is still an enormous issue, his mentality is very blatantly not good, his defensive projection is still poor at least partly due to the health issue, etc. He alone isn't worth a Jrue trade.

    So what else? Obviously no Jokic or Murray at this point. Harris? Nah, sorry.
    I've seen MJP favorably compared to Joe Johnson (All Star), Gordon Haywood (All Star), Danilo Gallinari (16.2 for career / over 10 Year career), and even, Kevin Durant (Top Three Player of our Time). All have had injury problems during their careers.

    Now, unless we are assured that Holiday will not opt out next summer, MJP and Harris would be a duo I would be all over (and they fit the time line)

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    I've seen MJP favorably compared to Joe Johnson (All Star), Gordon Haywood (All Star), Danilo Gallinari (16.2 for career / over 10 Year career), and even, Kevin Durant (Top Three Player of our Time). All have had injury problems during their careers.

    Now, unless we are assured that Holiday will not opt out next summer, MJP and Harris would be a duo I would be all over (and they fit the time line)
    None of them had multiple back surgeries before they were even in the NBA, and none of them come from a family of notably-injury-prone individuals. MPJs brother has wrecked legs and both of his sisters retired from all sports due to continuous injury issues.

    In any case, the fact that you've seen him favourably compared to people who are so massively different in quality and play-style as KD, Joe Johnson, and Gallinari should be sparking some questions in your head, not just automatic acceptance. If you're seeing him compared variously to all-time great primary offensive weapon KD and also really good roleplayer and good third option who cannot be the focal point of any offense like Gallinari, maybe that's a sign that people don't generally have a solid consensus view on him outside of ''good at offense'', which I already noted myself, rather than that he's a guaranteed star in the making.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    None of them had multiple back surgeries before they were even in the NBA, and none of them come from a family of notably-injury-prone individuals. MPJs brother has wrecked legs and both of his sisters retired from all sports due to continuous injury issues.

    In any case, the fact that you've seen him favourably compared to people who are so massively different in quality and play-style as KD, Joe Johnson, and Gallinari should be sparking some questions in your head, not just automatic acceptance. If you're seeing him compared variously to all-time great primary offensive weapon KD and also really good roleplayer and good third option who cannot be the focal point of any offense like Gallinari, maybe that's a sign that people don't generally have a solid consensus view on him outside of ''good at offense'', which I already noted myself, rather than that he's a guaranteed star in the making.
    If I may ask you...what exactly is Jrue Holiday? We all know about his abilities defensively, but who would you compare him too (current /past)? Is he much more than a third option offensively, if that (never mind how NO has used him)? Absent an extension, is one year of 30 year old Holiday worth more than the gamble on a 22 year old, once regarded as the top prospect in his draft and a fine rotational player, in Gary Harris?

  14. #114
    If i were in denver's spot i would be hesitant to trade for a 1 year rental for jrue.... if jrue would accept an extension then that would drive his value up, if he doesn't commit then thats a big risk doing that trade and not sure if he would make them a contender for them to pull that trigger

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    If I may ask you...what exactly is Jrue Holiday? We all know about his abilities defensively, but who would you compare him too (current /past)? Is he much more than a third option offensively, if that (never mind how NO has used him)? Absent an extension, is one year of 30 year old Holiday worth more than the gamble on a 22 year old, once regarded as the top prospect in his draft and a fine rotational player, in Gary Harris?
    I don't need to compare Jrue to anyone. The reason you make comparisons is either to project a younger player out into future potential, or to describe their playstyle when someone else hasn't seen them.

    Jrue is a 10 year vet with over 700 NBA games under his belt, and I know you've seen him play. So I don't need to give a comparison: you wanna know what Jrue is like as a player? Go watch him again.

    As for the rest I've been over my view on MPJ and Gary Harris in this thread and others a hundred times. Not going to reiterate it. Suffice it to say, it's contextually dependent.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by PaKwAn View Post
    If i were in denver's spot i would be hesitant to trade for a 1 year rental for jrue.... if jrue would accept an extension then that would drive his value up, if he doesn't commit then thats a big risk doing that trade and not sure if he would make them a contender for them to pull that trigger
    I don’t think Jrue would turn down an extension. That a lot of money to leave on the table. I doubt he’ll get a contract offer on the open market on a contender that will offer him more than what an extension would give him.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I don't need to compare Jrue to anyone. The reason you make comparisons is either to project a younger player out into future potential, or to describe their playstyle when someone else hasn't seen them.

    Jrue is a 10 year vet with over 700 NBA games under his belt, and I know you've seen him play. So I don't need to give a comparison: you wanna know what Jrue is like as a player? Go watch him again.

    As for the rest I've been over my view on MPJ and Gary Harris in this thread and others a hundred times. Not going to reiterate it. Suffice it to say, it's contextually dependent.
    You are a pompous, eh, 'sort'. Aren't you?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Jamal Murray just had an incredible playoff run. Don't let that fool you into thinking that those things were not true when they were written.

    I issue one correction. Jamal Murray has had one season where he was above league average in efficiency, his sophomore year.

    League Average TS% each year of his career: 55.2%, 55.6%, 56%, 56.5%
    Jamal Murray's TS% each year of his career: 51.8%, 57.8%, 53.9%, 55.8%

    What else is incorrect? That he's a poor defender? That's true, and is backed by both the eye test and the statistics (he's got a -0.7 DPIPM, for example, has never posted a positive net rating, has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, etc).

    As for my point about him not being consistent, that's just basic truth about him.

    The reason the Pels might do this trade is that you're betting on a mediocre player (not bad) who has shown signs of having something special. You might lose that bet, but if you think the upside is there (which this playoff run demonstrated it might be) then it's fair to take a swing.

    In any case, it's a bit weird to reply to this 6 weeks after the initial post, after Murray's playoffs explosion changes the evaluation a bit.
    ah I didnt see the post date...my bad. didnt realize those were from 6 weeks ago.

    but now things have changed and clearly denver wouldnt trade murray for jrue.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    I've seen MJP favorably compared to Joe Johnson (All Star), Gordon Haywood (All Star), Danilo Gallinari (16.2 for career / over 10 Year career), and even, Kevin Durant (Top Three Player of our Time). All have had injury problems during their careers.

    Now, unless we are assured that Holiday will not opt out next summer, MJP and Harris would be a duo I would be all over (and they fit the time line)
    pretty sure denver wont trade those two for jrue either.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by NugzFan View Post
    pretty sure denver wont trade those two for jrue either.
    Just Responding to another poster. Absent a LTC, I wouldn't make that trade either.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    Just Responding to another poster. Absent a LTC, I wouldn't make that trade either.
    can you even negotiate a LTC into a trade?

  22. #122
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NugzFan View Post
    can you even negotiate a LTC into a trade?
    No, but teams get assurances from a player before a trade. That is why the Hornets lost out on Curry in a CP3 trade because CP3 would not give GS any assurances that he would re-sign with them.

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    No, but teams get assurances from a player before a trade. That is why the Hornets lost out on Curry in a CP3 trade because CP3 would not give GS any assurances that he would re-sign with them.
    oh makes sense.

    I dont think I would trade mpj+ for jrue even with a LTC assurance though.

    if the pelicans want to trade jrue, do you guys think they want more youth and picks or veteran players?

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    You are a pompous, eh, 'sort'. Aren't you?

  25. #125
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! pelicanchamp's Avatar
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    What about sending Jrue to GSW?

    GSW receive: Jrue Holiday and Darius Miller and a future 2022 1st rounder.

    PELS receive: Andrew Wiggins, Marquese Chriss and the 2nd pick of the draft.

    Draft Lamelo Ball and with the 13th pick get Vernon Carey the center from Duke.

    lineup:

    PG: Lonzo Ball, Lamelo Ball
    SG: Ingram, Reddick, NAW
    SF: Wiggins, Hart
    PF: Zion, Melli
    C: Hayes, Chriss, Carey

    You could also try Lamelo at pg and Lonzo at SG

    What do y?all think?


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