Playoffs Thread

[Pelicanidae]

I didn't realise that was a common narrative against him. The main one I heard is that he was a hard ****** teammate and to lesser extent a bad three point shooter.

Analytics should never be the sole synonym for 'a good three point shooter'

It's not a huge narrative among people who know what they're talking about, but there's some talk of it. Mike Breen was saying that Butler is an ''anti-analytics'' player on the broadcast, and if you go to Twitter and just search ''Jimmy Butler analytics'' or ''Butler analytics'' or whatever, you find tons of people saying ''Did Butler make any threes tonight? Where those analytics people at?'' and stuff like that.

[AusPel]

It's not a huge narrative among people who know what they're talking about, but there's some talk of it. Mike Breen was saying that Butler is an ''anti-analytics'' player on the broadcast, and if you go to Twitter and just search ''Jimmy Butler analytics'' or ''Butler analytics'' or whatever, you find tons of people saying ''Did Butler make any threes tonight? Where those analytics people at?'' and stuff like that.

Ah yes, good old thorough Twitter analysis

[Pelicanidae]

Ah yes, good old thorough Twitter analysis

Oh for sure, I'm not saying that this is like, The Dominant Perspective of the Informed Man or anything. Just that it's a popular talking point.

[tacosman]

You mad that a farm team is being a farm team?

I guess in the end this is the right way to look at it.

Hell, even if Zion does get the conditioning down and becomes a great difference making player we are likely just getting him ready for some other team. Hell maybe the lakers!

We suck and the Lakers are about to hoist their 17th(or whatever) title. Ugh this isn't working out well.....

[Pelicanidae]

I guess in the end this is the right way to look at it.

Hell, even if Zion does get the conditioning down and becomes a great difference making player we are likely just getting him ready for some other team. Hell maybe the lakers!

We suck and the Lakers are about to hoist their 17th(or whatever) title. Ugh this isn't working out well.....

Actually a bunch of the Lakers titles belong in Minnesota so as far as I'm concerned LA doesn't get them.

[tacosman]

I don't believe this is accurate.

Firstly, Lebron has never been the type of guy who signs smaller deals to free up space for a 3rd star. There are few things you can say have been as constant throughout Lebron's career as his desire to maximise his income. If there is any possible way for him to get LA to give him another max, he will get them to give him another max and that's what he will sign. Lebron is not doing a Tim Duncan discount; there has never been any indication in his entire career that he would be willing to do such a thing.

Secondly, you say that they'll transition to the next core group by then. My question is, where is this group supposed to come from? They can't trade for promising young players: they have nobody under contract long term and no picks. They can't draft those young players, they have no picks. They're not getting those guys flocking to them in FA because they have no money and, as Lebron ages over the next few seasons, there's no real reason to go there; players don't flock to play with AD, as we've seen.

You can argue that maybe players will just go there because it's LA, but then you have to ask why nobody was doing that for the last 7 years before Lebron showed up. If players want to go to a destination city to live the high life, they're just going to go to Miami, which at least has some good young prospects and has been consistently good for years.

Thirdly, while we've seen freeing up cap space happen, there are circumstances where that's harder than usual. It's easier to free up cap if you have a few overpaid middle-tier players and you can attach picks to move them, or you can can stretch contracts, or whatever. It's very difficult to do that when you have two separate guys earning over $40m a year: we call this the Westbrook/Harden dilemma.

the problem with this viewpoint is while it's possible what you are saying will play out that way, we know the following:

-The Lakers are the premiere franchise in the entire nba
-AD alone from ages 30-33 is still a good foundational piece to at least be average+ when motivated, making the draft picks less valuable. A 44-38 team doesn't have a good draft pick attached to it
-You keep referencing a 6 year period(really more like 4 where they were very bad and those picks would be where we want) where they were really down, but
that's cherry picking even worse than what the other side is doing. The entire history of the lakers franchise going back to kareem is them attracting elite players through non-draft means. From Kareem to
Shaq to Lebron

worse, the Lakers are about to hoist another trophy in a few days. Next year, they are going to be the favorites(not against the field, but better odds than every other team) to win another title. We're watching this *right now* and that sucks. It sucks for everyone who doesn't like the Lakers. I mean the whole point of this is to win nba titles, and the Lakers are in the process of doing it *right now* and have a damn good chance of doing it next year too. And you're telling me that despite the enormity of how bad that sucks we should look forward to how their situation in 2024 or so may not be great? Nevermind that they are the premiere franchise in the entire nba and have a history of attracting literally the greatest players in nba history?

If you look 5 years in the future at any point, the Lakers are almost always going to have the brightest future.....because they are the lakers.

You can't do that 2 years out, but in this case that also sucks for us anti-lakers people because 2 years from now Anthony Davis will still be one of the top 5 players in the nba(hell he might be top 2 as harden and durant will be older than him) and Lebron will not be as elite but will likely still be a difference maker(it's not like he has followed a typical curve)

It just sucks sucks sucks....in every way for us who don't like the lakers.

[Pelicanidae]

-AD alone from ages 30-33 is still a good foundational piece to at least be average+ when motivated, making the draft picks less valuable. A 44-38 team doesn't have a good draft pick attached to it

Tell that to The Pelicans. Imagine being a Pelicans fan and trying to argue that AD alone gives you a 44 win team. Come on now.

-You keep referencing a 6 year period(really more like 4 where they were very bad and those picks would be where we want) where they were really down, but
that's cherry picking even worse than what the other side is doing. The entire history of the lakers franchise going back to kareem is them attracting elite players through non-draft means. From Kareem to
Shaq to Lebron .

I am not referencing that period (of 7 straight years where they didn't make the playoffs and nobody but Lebron eventually came to join them) as proof that the Lakers can never acquire talent. If I was, then yes that would be unfair cherry picking. What I am doing is referencing that period as some evidence that they won't miraculously and inevitably acquire high end talent without having to ever do anything for it. Lebron is the exception here, rather than the rule, and he only went there because he has other businesses in the area that made it more convenient to be there year round rather than simply in the off-season. Most players, I hope I don't need to argue, are not Lebron.

worse, the Lakers are about to hoist another trophy in a few days. Next year, they are going to be the favorites(not against the field, but better odds than every other team) to win another title. We're watching this *right now* and that sucks. It sucks for everyone who doesn't like the Lakers. I mean the whole point of this is to win nba titles, and the Lakers are in the process of doing it *right now* and have a damn good chance of doing it next year too. And you're telling me that despite the enormity of how bad that sucks we should look forward to how their situation in 2024 or so may not be great?

Yes, I am telling you that. Because no matter whether it's LA, or Miami, or Boston, or the Clippers, or Denver, we were never winning a ring this year, and we are the only franchise we should care about. I might have my minor league preferences over who wins the chip in a given year but in reality it's either we win it or it's disappointment. Now, I didn't come into this year expecting it for obvious reasons and therefore whether LA are in the process of winning a ring or not means nothing to me in that sense. I am focused on the future because that is where victory lies for this franchise, and that's where you should be looking too.

[Taker597]

Exactly. People need to remember that that was not just a raw, assets-for-PG trade in a vacuum.

That trade was done precisely because it was the requirement to acquire Kawhi. Kawhi had told them he was not signing there unless they did it.

Therefore the trade was for PG and Kawhi both. Which makes it make a lot more sense.

Don't try to straw man it. It was a ton of assets for PG and PG only. Kawhi was always going to LA. He been wanting to go to LA for 3 season. He was already moved out of Toronto and not moving back.

[Pelicanidae]

Don't try to straw man it. It was a ton of assets for PG and PG only. Kawhi was always going to LA. He been wanting to go to LA for 3 season. He was already moved out of Toronto and not moving back.

Yes but the question was whether he went to LA Lakers or the LA Clippers. He didn't want to necessarily play second fiddle to Lebron, but he also didn't want to go to a team where the second best player would have been Lou Williams.

So he made the demand. Clippers did what they had to. This is well documented at this point.

[GuardianAngel25]

When Tyler Herro was a draft prospect I called him the next Devin Booker and was trashed for it. I even continued to call him that during the season. One of the huge reasons I pushed to use multiple draft picks to trade for him because I believe next to Ingram and Zion he would have been the perfect fit. He was also the one player the would have swayed me to send Jrue to the Heat when that was a rumor.

Tyler Herro is going to be a Super Star in this league and his game is very similar to Devin Booker with each better in their own right. Such similar backgrounds makes it kinda crazy how similar they are. Their rookie stats are nearly identical in every single area possible with Herro being the slightly better 3pt shooter and rebounder. Outside of those two stats you could put up a mirror. I see Herro becoming that good along with a few other young teammates.

IMO the Heat are becoming the new best team in the East going forward with their youth for years. The Pelicans have a chance to do that by continuing to build from within and drafting well. I see Jrue as our Jimmy and just a year ago we saw his presence in the playoffs. Just like the Heat this season I believe the Pelicans are that team next season.

Zion/Bam
Jrue/Butler
BI/Herro
JJ/Duncan
ZO/Dragic
NAW/Nunn
Hayes/Olynk
Hart/Crowder

Figured I would list the top 8 as it’s the most important in playoffs. I think we have a ton of similarities and while they are better in some areas we are more dominant in others. We also have the draft coming up and who knows how good of a contributor I’m not able to list that we could have. We are ready to compete with the best we just need a good coach and time together. All of our guys at 100% and healthy is lethal and can consistently win.

[UNO Gracias]

When Tyler Herro was a draft prospect I called him the next Devin Booker and was trashed for it. I even continued to call him that during the season. One of the huge reasons I pushed to use multiple draft picks to trade for him because I believe next to Ingram and Zion he would have been the perfect fit. He was also the one player the would have swayed me to send Jrue to the Heat when that was a rumor.

Tyler Herro is going to be a Super Star in this league and his game is very similar to Devin Booker with each better in their own right. Such similar backgrounds makes it kinda crazy how similar they are. Their rookie stats are nearly identical in every single area possible with Herro being the slightly better 3pt shooter and rebounder. Outside of those two stats you could put up a mirror. I see Herro becoming that good along with a few other young teammates.

IMO the Heat are becoming the new best team in the East going forward with their youth for years. The Pelicans have a chance to do that by continuing to build from within and drafting well. I see Jrue as our Jimmy and just a year ago we saw his presence in the playoffs. Just like the Heat this season I believe the Pelicans are that team next season.

Nobody can argue any of this. Herro will be a star in this league (either on his own or because the NBA needs a White Superstar next to Luka). It’s going to happen, and I’m here for it. I wish we had taken him as he can space the floor, and we need floor spacers. But hey, we have...Jaxson Hayes.

As to the East being the Heat’s, who can argue that? They are young, they are in the Finals, and they are a destination city (thanks in no small part to ample cap space and no state income tax). I can only wonder how they will beef up that team to make them more than just a one and done finals team like the Pistons before them. I will be pulling for them (like I pulled for GSW before KD went there). I am for organically grown teams that defy the odds.

[PeliKhan]

Herro will never sniff the same air as Booker. Will never be an all-star, even in the east.

[Pelicanidae]

As to the East being the Heat’s, who can argue that? They are young, they are in the Finals, and they are a destination city (thanks in no small part to ample cap space and no state income tax). .

Boston and Milwaukee exist.

[UNO Gracias]

Yes, Boston and Milwaukee still exist (so do Toronto and Philly as well), however what do two of those teams have in common? They got got by the Heat. Those teams have a lot more warts than people want to admit, but to Miami’s credit (and unlike those other teams) they are still on the come up. They are young, and littered with solid talent that will improve as it grows. Those other teams are in a holding pattern tinkering in an attempt to beat the Heat.

The East will be a fun conference to follow.

[As I See It]

When the dust clears, the East will be Miami, Philly, and Brooklyn's to lose in the foreseeable future. Toronto is already on the skids (Good Bye Marc, and Fred) , Milwaukee is on borrowed time (Giannis time), and Boston's interior is weak, one-dimensional, and unathletic (never mind that the team, overall, lacks length). That's not to say the Heat, 76er's, and Nets don't have holes...but the pieces already in place are quite formidable.

[Pelicanidae]

Yes, Boston and Milwaukee still exist (so do Toronto and Philly as well), however what do two of those teams have in common? They got got by the Heat. Those teams have a lot more warts than people want to admit, but to Miami’s credit (and unlike those other teams) they are still on the come up. They are young, and littered with solid talent that will improve as it grows. Those other teams are in a holding pattern tinkering in an attempt to beat the Heat.

The East will be a fun conference to follow.

The fact that a team ''got got'' by one team one year means very little.

Toronto ''got got'' by the Cavaliers one year and won the chip within the next 3 while the Cavs were back in the lottery.

The Lakers have had a fantastic season but the reality is that Lebron is showing far more faults in his game than many are willing to discuss, and they had a pretty dang easy postseason. Injury riddled not-that-great-even-when-healthy Portland in the first round, Playoff P made sure they didn't have to face the Clippers, Denver was missing Barton the entire time and LA got an extremely favourable whistle, and now they're in the finals against a team missing 2 of their top 3 players.

I don't put asterisks on rings. LA have earned this championship: you can only play the teams that get put in front of you. But the reality is that this year, the teams put in front of them have been of a fairly low calibre due to (largely) injury. That's fine: that's the advantage Lebron gets. You go to the finals every single year, you get a swing at the softballs. You earn that opportunity. But it doesn't turn you into a worldbeater to beat the Bamless, Dragicless Heat.

[Pelicanidae]

When the dust clears, the East will be Miami, Philly, and Brooklyn's to lose in the foreseeable future. Toronto is already on the skids (Good Bye Marc, and Fred) , Milwaukee is on borrowed time (Giannis time), and Boston's interior is weak, one-dimensional, and unathletic (never mind that the team, overall, lacks length). That's not to say the Heat, 76er's, and Nets don't have holes...but the pieces already in place are quite formidable.

Brooklyn is the future despite their two core pieces that make up like $90m together being a 32 year old coming off basketball's worst injury and a 29 year old with a long documented history of failing knees?

Not sure I follow.

[As I See It]

Brooklyn is the future despite their two core pieces that make up like $90m together being a 32 year old coming off basketball's worst injury and a 29 year old with a long documented history of failing knees?

Not sure I follow.

Stay tuned

[Pelicanidae]

Stay tuned

I mean, I'm not saying they won't be good, they probably will be as long as Durant is even 50% of himself, but when you call I team the future I think more than ''quite good for like 2 or 3 years maybe''.

Luka Doncic is the future. What I mean by that is, barring injury, the next decade will be his. He may not be the best player that entire time, he'll have stiff competition from people like Zion, Cade, etc, but he's going to be extremely great for a long time.

Brooklyn isn't the future in that way. They'll be pretty good next year I think, probably not a title contender, and this core alone won't be enough to sustain that for a long time. Brooklyn is fairly old, very injury prone (between Kyrie, Durant, and LeVert I'm not sure that there's two completely good legs) and has a rookie coach. Don't expect fireworks.

[As I See It]

I mean, I'm not saying they won't be good, they probably will be as long as Durant is even 50% of himself, but when you call I team the future I think more than ''quite good for like 2 or 3 years maybe''.

Luka Doncic is the future. What I mean by that is, barring injury, the next decade will be his. He may not be the best player that entire time, he'll have stiff competition from people like Zion, Cade, etc, but he's going to be extremely great for a long time.

Brooklyn isn't the future in that way. They'll be pretty good next year I think, probably not a title contender, and this core alone won't be enough to sustain that for a long time. Brooklyn is fairly old, very injury prone (between Kyrie, Durant, and LeVert I'm not sure that there's two completely good legs) and has a rookie coach. Don't expect fireworks.

As my post refers to teams in the Eastern conference, I fail to see how Luca, Zion, or Cunningham are germane to the argument. But to play along, last I looked, neither Luca or Zion were on Eastern Conference teams (do you know something the rest of us don't? Knowing you as we do, your answer has to be: "Of course I do".).

As far as mentioning Cunningham in the same breath as Luca or Zion, do you use tarot cards, astrology charts, or crystal balls? Then again, maybe you just pull it out your........ Never Mind!!!

[Pelicanidae]

As my post refers to teams in the Eastern conference, I fail to see how Luca, Zion, or Cunningham are germane to the argument. But to play along, last I looked, neither Luca or Zion were on Eastern Conference teams (do you know something the rest of us don't? Knowing you as we do, your answer has to be: "Of course I do".).

As far as mentioning Cunningham in the same breath as Luca or Zion, do you use tarot cards, astrology charts, or crystal balls? Then again, maybe you just pull it out your........ Never Mind!!!

Luka is spelled with a K.

In any case, the players were used as an analogy. That is to say, a comparison to provide clarification: I was giving a demonstration of what is generally meant by calling something ''the future'', to explain why I found your use of that term for Brooklyn a bit confusing.

It's not my fault if you don't understand that. Chill out.

[As I See It]

Luka is spelled with a K.

In any case, the players were used as an analogy. That is to say, a comparison to provide clarification: I was giving a demonstration of what is generally meant by calling something ''the future'', to explain why I found your use of that term for Brooklyn a bit confusing.

It's not my fault if you don't understand that. Chill out.

I'm quite sure you won't mind if I LMAO at your weak response, Cade!!

[AusPel]

I'm quite sure you won't mind if I LMAO at your weak response, Cade!!

I feel like you and 13 - 3 are the same person

Just inane nonsense with every post

[As I See It]

I feel like you and 13 - 3 are the same person

Just inane nonsense with every post

Nah, Matey......... Surprise!!! You got it wrong.

Another opinion gone awry!!!

[Pelicanidae]

Closeout game in the NBA Finals. Lebron and AD both having good games.

Heat still leading 4 minutes into the 4th, having won every quarter. Butler has and efficient 27/10/10 with 4 steals. Only 2 turnovers: 1 foul.

Has played 39 minutes already.

Dude's just giving it everything.