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This is the issue with the newer generation of players. They have never really seen the post-up game first hand....everything is a outside jump shot. There are ways to handle fronting, doubles etc... this generation of players just haven't seen it done consistently because post play is rare/obsolete theses days. it was the norm 25+ years ago. Alvin's fast ball doesn't really fit Zion's size. When Zion leaves the game then kick the motor in. Telling my ageOriginally Posted by Biasvasospasm
He definitely has.
He has! Not saying he's shown no growth there, he has. But it just needs to become consistent. One total shot inside of the arc in a game in which you play 35+ minutes is unacceptable, for pretty much any PG.
The only players who can ever get away with stuff like that are the world-class shooters, whose only job is to shoot. Prime Korver could do that. JJ on a good night can do that. Lonzo Ball cannot.
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I remember my early concern with Lonzo is it looked at times like he could barely dribble and he look very uncomfortable trying to finish close to the basket. He’s gotten better in all those regards. Playing exceptionally well of late.
Ball is not a shoot first guard. A lot of his drives result in a dish or kick out.
Lonzo has improved, but is still way inconsistent with his driving. One game he will commit to it, and we blow the other team out. The next game he thinks he is prime Steph Curry, and we lose.
I think it is a symptom of terrible coaching. Alvin wanting them to take 30 threes a game just reinforces their bad habits. I am so done with him.
40. He wants 40 threes/game.
They measure drives, regardless of result. It doesn't matter whether you take a shot attempt, or if you pass; it's the drive itself they measure. How many times do you, upon having possession of the ball outside of the 3 point line, dribble it through the defense into the paint? That's what they measure.
Lonzo doesn't do it much. The problem isn't that he's not shoot first, and that he dishes. The problem is that he does not drive in the first place.
On our team, these are the drive numbers (per 36).
1 - Jrue - 16.4
2 - Ingram - 14.2
3 - NAW - 13.6
4 - E'twaun - 8.8
5 - Frank - 7.6
6 - Lonzo - 7.1
7 - Zion - 3.5
8- Hart - 3.2
The only guys below that are guys like Redick, who are purely shooters, and bigs. Lonzo has the lowest drive frequency of any of our major ball handlers. Man, he even has a lower drive frequency than guys who aren't supposed to be ballhandlers, like Moore.
Yeah, I just threw an arbitrarily high number out there because I had forgotten how incredibly dumb Gentry's philosophy was.
I am so pissed that we lost to a team with a huge gaping hole in the paint, and with their point guard guarding our CENTER.
You really can't make this up. Reality is so much more depressing than fiction at this point.
How much of this is before Lonzo was healthy?
From the eye, it looks like he is driving more now in Jan/Feb than he was in say October to December.
He is. His drives per game have gone up in January compared to before. But not by much. This is what I mean when I say that he has improved but he needs to be way more consistent.
November: 4.5 drives per game
December: 6.9 drives per game
January: 7.1 drives per game
This is largely a consequence of increased minutes, rather than increased rate of drives, but it's still resulting in more drives per game from him.
What I mean by increased minutes rather than increased rate is simple. In December, he averaged 6.9 drives per game, but he was only playing 29 minutes. That translates to 8.4 drives per 36. In January, he is actually playing 36 minutes a game, and only had 7.1, which means obviously the his rate of driving has gone down; his 'drives-per-minute', as it were.
Still, it's clear that the trend from November through to today has been upwards.
Last edited by Pelicanidae; 02-03-2020 at 08:07 PM.
Thanks for the clarification.
No, it's because they changed the illegal defense rules. There's a reason why it's been 15 years since a team's offensive engine was a post player, and it's not because kids nowadays or AAU or whatever. You can double the post now if you need to without immediately compromising your defense, and because it's harder to predict where the double team is coming from turnovers are higher.This is the issue with the newer generation of players. They have never really seen the post-up game first hand....everything is a outside jump shot. There are ways to handle fronting, doubles etc... this generation of players just haven't seen it done consistently because post play is rare/obsolete theses days. it was the norm 25+ years ago. Alvin's fast ball doesn't really fit Zion's size. When Zion leaves the game then kick the motor in. Telling my age
You're absolutely correct.
People don't play the post as the primary engine of an offense anymore because it's bad offense the vast majority of the time. Running the post as your primary offense has been a bad idea for the last 10 years.
very true, but running your best post man from 15' away from the basket can, and should, provide lethal results most of the time....and Lord knows we have the guy who can make it work the vast majority of the time....
"we might make dollars, but we don't necessarily make sense"
"always be sincere....whether you mean it or not"
If you have someone who is lethal in the post and also a good passer, it's obviously a really good idea to give them a couple of post touches every now and again. It keeps defenses honest to the threat, and helps you control the pace, especially if you have a big mismatch. Totally true.
And of course, high post/elbow action can be great if you have a dynamic passer who can provide a paint-scoring threat as well as a passing threat. Jokic is probably the league's best example of that. Absolute monster passer who can score inside as well, and the consequence is that he's top 5 in elbow touches per game leaguewide
But these are relatively rare exceptions to the rule, and even Denver doesn't run all of its offense through the post.
Don't get me wrong, I think post play can be a major part of what Zion does. Some post players (Lebron, Jokic, Embiid) generate good enough offense out of postups that this has real value. But it needs to be mixed in and it can't be telegraphed. They need to figure out a couple of actions where the other players are immediate scoring threats that the defense has to respect that get Zion can cleanly get the ball in post position. When that happens, it's usually over. We had several bad turnovers Suday where the guard dribbled on the wing, Zion pushed a dude into the low post, the defender fronted, the guard tried to throw it over the top, and it was predictably a turnover. We can't just telegraph, here, we're posting up Zion, try and stop it. That might work in semi-transition before the defense is set, but in the halfcourt, it's just too easy to see it coming and for the defense to grab Zion (they can't call all of them and even if we're in the bonus, they aren't worried about him from the line) or come off their man to deflect the pass.
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