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Thread: Ingram Appreciation and Recognition..

  1. #26
    The Franchise billfromfinance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AusPel View Post
    I feel like most improved should go to the most unexpected improvement of the year

    BI is just growing into what was expected of him
    eh I disagree. It isn't named the "Surprise breakout award". Someone shouldn't be pinged because they improved as much as people expected them too. This seems to walk a line of ignoring all the hard work they put in to get there, like they just had to show up and it was bound to happen.

    The point Pelicanidae made which seems to have been missed is that the award comparison is supposed to be based on season to season change, not small game windows. Just because someone showed glimpses of talent in a small window, should not discredit them when they rise to the level of performing at that level in each and every game (just about) the following season.

    What you believed a player was capable of eventually should have zero to do with it. They still have to improve to get to that level of consistency and performance. Hence Most Improved.

    Plenty of players in the running, I just don't believe you should disqualify him in your opinion because you saw the potential there all along. I don't think he's necessarily number 1 for the award, as mentioned graham's jump has been very large.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    Agreed, the increase in 3PT shot volume is significant. I expected him to improve in that area, but I wasn't expecting him to hover around 40%. I also wasn't expecting 85% from the FT line.

    Looking forward to seeing him play extended minutes with Zion. It should increase his FG% at the rim since opposing bigs won't want to leave Zion.. Should also increase his assist rate.

    What really excites me is Jaxson and Zion manning the paint..

    what i want to see jax and favors at the 4 and 5 for a spell ......let jax roam like AD used to do and block shots and help rim protect...

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by billfromfinance View Post
    eh I disagree. It isn't named the "Surprise breakout award". Someone shouldn't be pinged because they improved as much as people expected them too. This seems to walk a line of ignoring all the hard work they put in to get there, like they just had to show up and it was bound to happen.

    The point Pelicanidae made which seems to have been missed is that the award comparison is supposed to be based on season to season change, not small game windows. Just because someone showed glimpses of talent in a small window, should not discredit them when they rise to the level of performing at that level in each and every game (just about) the following season.

    What you believed a player was capable of eventually should have zero to do with it. They still have to improve to get to that level of consistency and performance. Hence Most Improved.

    Plenty of players in the running, I just don't believe you should disqualify him in your opinion because you saw the potential there all along. I don't think he's necessarily number 1 for the award, as mentioned graham's jump has been very large.
    This is where you're both wrong.. There is no small window.. Ingram averaged 18PPG last season, that's sort of a big deal. To tail off the season he was averaging what he's averaging now. This isn't about potential, it's about what he was doing.

    In addition, Pelicanidae felt it necessary to bring up something no one was even talking about in here. There was no reason to introduce a negative into the discussion. "Yea Ingram has shown improvement but someone else has shown more improvement" So what?????????? This thread isn't about a most improved award.

  4. #29
    The Franchise billfromfinance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    This is where you're both wrong.. There is no small window.. Ingram averaged 18PPG last season, that's sort of a big deal. To tail off the season he was averaging what he's averaging now. This isn't about potential, it's about what he was doing.

    In addition, Pelicanidae felt it necessary to bring up something no one was even talking about in here. There was no reason to introduce a negative into the discussion. "Yea Ingram has shown improvement but someone else has shown more improvement" So what?????????? This thread isn't about a most improved award.
    "Yeah, I don't think Ingram has improved significantly. He was averaging 26PPG after allstar break last season." - Nichols

    ^^ this is what we are referencing as a small window. He didn't perform that way the entire season, nor the 2 seasons before that. It was a glimpse of what he could do at that point, and wasn't able to see out the season doing. In no way is that a negative on him, it just is what it is.

    Looking on basketball-reference, he's about up in almost all categories in the advanced cats this season.

    Regarding the "negative", it was just a discussion point that despite how well he's doing there are others who have done even more (which he was amazed at). It was obviously something he realised once he started researching more. Hardly something for you to get upset over as an attack or slight on BI. Relax and stop talking past one another, you are allowed to appreciate a player with both eyes.

  5. #30
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    Don't read more into my posts.. I don't need to relax, I'm not angry.. And yes, he did introduce a negative.. Just out of the blue.. "He isn't the most improved".. In an appreciation thread. Where no one even mentioned him being the most improved..

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by billfromfinance View Post
    "Yeah, I don't think Ingram has improved significantly. He was averaging 26PPG after allstar break last season." - Nichols

    ^^ this is what we are referencing as a small window. He didn't perform that way the entire season, nor the 2 seasons before that. It was a glimpse of what he could do at that point, and wasn't able to see out the season doing. In no way is that a negative on him, it just is what it is.

    Looking on basketball-reference, he's about up in almost all categories in the advanced cats this season.

    Regarding the "negative", it was just a discussion point that despite how well he's doing there are others who have done even more (which he was amazed at). It was obviously something he realised once he started researching more. Hardly something for you to get upset over as an attack or slight on BI. Relax and stop talking past one another, you are allowed to appreciate a player with both eyes.
    You're referencing a small window.. I'm not, as I've said before.. he was averaging 18PPG on high efficiency for the entirety of last season. On the tail end of the season his stats were up significantly, which constitutes continuation when he's doing the same thing he was doing before being sidelined.

  7. #32

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by billfromfinance View Post
    Regarding the "negative", it was just a discussion point that despite how well he's doing there are others who have done even more (which he was amazed at). It was obviously something he realised once he started researching more. Hardly something for you to get upset over as an attack or slight on BI. Relax and stop talking past one another, you are allowed to appreciate a player with both eyes.
    Yes, thank you. That is precisely what I meant.

    Based on the massive improvements that Ingram has made this season (as a full, continued body of work) compared to his last season (as a full body of work) I was thinking that he had to be a shoe-in for MIP. So I looked it up and yeah, his numbers seemed perfectly in line with the kind of thing you'd expect from an MIP candidate.

    I was just also surprised to find that there are others who have taken even larger single-season leaps. That's not a knock on Ingram, it's just something I noticed.

    I sometimes post interesting stuff in threads even if it's not directly related to the thread topic if I find it while looking something up for the thread. For example, in the game thread yesterday I was looking up Jax's stats because I remembered him being one of the highest rookies in most advanced stat categories, and while searching I found how ridiculous Brandon Clarke's shooting stats were, so I posted them. Clarke had nothing to do with that game, I just found it interesting and cool.

    Same thing here. No attack on Ingram, just me noting how insane some of the leaps other players had taken, like Devonte' Graham. I like basketball. I find information about the game interesting. Sue me.
    Basketball.

  9. #34
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! pelicanchamp's Avatar
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    BI is a superstar. He is only going to get better. He needs to put on 10-15lbs of muscle and continue to work on his handle and stay aggressive. Improvement on defense, and winning, will make him a perennial all star.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #35
    Interesting question: If the Lakers could see forward to this point in time, at the time the deal was made, do they still make the AD trade as it was constructed?

    There's a lot of factors at play here, but seeing what we've seen out of BI to this point, I have zero regrets for the Pels in that deal. BI now projects as a top 15 player in this league in the very near future, and we know how much more valuable wings and ball handlers are than big men, specifically in the playoffs. If the Pels were still dangling AD, and BI was doing this in LA, I don't think its crazy to say that Ad for BI and Hart would've gotten it done.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by pelafanatic View Post
    Interesting question: If the Lakers could see forward to this point in time, at the time the deal was made, do they still make the AD trade as it was constructed?

    There's a lot of factors at play here, but seeing what we've seen out of BI to this point, I have zero regrets for the Pels in that deal. BI now projects as a top 15 player in this league in the very near future, and we know how much more valuable wings and ball handlers are than big men, specifically in the playoffs. If the Pels were still dangling AD, and BI was doing this in LA, I don't think its crazy to say that Ad for BI and Hart would've gotten it done.
    Probably tbh. Firstly, AD is also a top candidate for DPOY and has been for several years in a row, whereas Ingram is still a fairly middling defender despite his explosion of offense. Secondly, Lebron neither needs nor wants other ball dominant wings; he prefers playing with big men who are play finishers rather than ball-handlers themselves. Thirdly, I don't think Ingram explodes offensively like this in LA. I think our development staff is better, I think Vinson's role in improving his FT consistency is probably the least appreciated improvement in his game that's made a huge difference, and I think the change in scenery has been important for allowing him to change his game in the small ways that have added up to a lot.

  12. #37
    Ingram is the player that can put the team on his back while taking and making difficult shots. It will be interesting once we have another superstar on the floor in Zion. Can’t wait

  13. #38

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by akhan786 View Post
    Congrats BI..

  15. #40
    It's nice to see the trend of players leaving LAL and getting better continue. BI was clearly the prize in the Davis trade. My biggest concern was/is the blood clot situation. I've always liked Ingram as a prospect and player. I brought into the KD lite comparison out of Duke. Glad to see it coming to light.

  16. #41
    Yep.

    And the coolest thing to me about Brandon Ingram is that I think he actually likes it here. He actually seems to be bonding to the city and franchise. It's been a long road as a fan here. Baron to CP3 to Gordon to AD......here is an all-star caliber player with the potential to go all-pro and he may actually want to stay here! Furthermore, he's been to LA and has felt that toxicity. This is a factor LA doesn't even measure but to us in New Orleans......it's incalculable how much that's worth.
    Good positive energy.

    But also, yo mama's fat.

  17. #42
    This team is Brandon Ingram’s until he says he doesn’t want it.
    If you Jimmer it, they will come.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    This team is Brandon Ingram’s until he says he doesn’t want it.
    Or until Zion's healthy, whichever comes first.

  19. #44
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Or until Zion's healthy, whichever comes first.
    Sounds like a car warranty.

  20. #45
    All conjecture, since I don't know the dude. He
    just strikes me as the type that would be OK sharing the limelight with Zion or even as the #2. Zion comes across like that, as well. They feel very different than the stars we've had in the past.

    They are the messiahs. And I should know, I've followed a few.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    All conjecture, since I don't know the dude. He
    just strikes me as the type that would be OK sharing the limelight with Zion or even as the #2. Zion comes across like that, as well. They feel very different than the stars we've had in the past.

    They are the messiahs. And I should know, I've followed a few.
    He has a fairly laid back personality from what we've seen in the public eye (obviously that's not the full story, but we can't assume anything beyond what we've seen) so I think he'd be fine taking the #2 role, which I think is probably for the best. He's taken huge leaps in his game offensively, but he's still not a two way star and his decision making can be spotty; I think we all agree on at least that much, whatever other disagreements we have.

    Zion's going to come into the league and be, within his first 2 seasons, as impactful as Ingram has been in 4, including Ingram's breakout. That's the kind of ceiling we're talking about with Zion, if he reaches it, which I think isn't unrealistic given what we know of him. For a guy of that quality, of that impact, he will naturally be the #1 on the court, within a few years if not immediately. That's just the reality of talent and efficacy. If you want to win games, your best player needs to be leading the charge, and if you sacrifice the effectiveness that comes with such dominance to try and be more equitable for people's egos, then you lose games.

    Luckily, I don't think that will be an issue. Like we've all said, Ingram seems pretty laid back, pretty cool about things. He doesn't seem to be the type of guy who needs to have things forced to fit his ego. If Zion truly hits that dominant peak (which I believe he will) I think Ingram will happily accept a slightly more secondary role in exchange for 50 win seasons and a ton of money. Which is a good thing.

  22. #47
    The Miami Heat's # 2 (in their championship runs) will be inducted in Springfield in exactly five years.

    As have: Scottie Pippen, Ray Allen, Gale Goodrich, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish, Adrian Dantley, and Joe Dumars, among others...…#2's or #3's all.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    The Miami Heat's # 2 (in their championship runs) will be inducted in Springfield in exactly five years.

    As have: Scottie Pippen, Ray Allen, Gale Goodrich, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish, Adrian Dantley, and Joe Dumars, among others...…#2's or #3's all.
    Nothing wrong with being a great #2

  24. #49
    Yep. Or I can even see a Shaq and Kobe tandem where it's more of a 1a and 1b but with two guys that actually have personalities that don't suck.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    Yep. Or I can even see a Shaq and Kobe tandem where it's more of a 1a and 1b but with two guys that actually have personalities that don't suck.
    This is what I see, I don't think there's a clear 1 and 2.. And if that was the case, both seem like they'd be fine with 1 or 2..

    It was predicted by some that Ingram would be a 3rd or 4th option on this team.. lol. His decision making is fine, I'd say pretty good for a wing. Whatever role he's given I'd expect him to continue to make good reads and create looks for his teammates.

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