NBA DRAFT 2020 DISCUSSION

[JJackisangry]

I’d wager it’s Nesmtih if we trade Jrue and remain at 12. Unless a stretch 5 falls into our lap or a can’t miss PG talent reaches that spot, he makes sense. We are desperate for a big time shooter. Not sure how I feel about it, but that’s what I predict will happen.

[Taker597]

I wouldn't pick Bane 12th either, I'd probably pick Poku if he was still there or Riller if not at that point, assuming that nobody from my top 10 had fallen down, but yeah as a late first round or even second round pick, love Bane.

Not really sure why Nesmith has gotten so much media attention but Bane hasn't.

I think because he isn't a super athletic and a lot of people think he'll get crushed by NBA speed.

[Taker597]

I’d wager it’s Nesmtih if we trade Jrue and remain at 12. Unless a stretch 5 falls into our lap or a can’t miss PG talent reaches that spot, he makes sense. We are desperate for a big time shooter. Not sure how I feel about it, but that’s what I predict will happen.

Nesmith is like if someone gave you fusion of Klay Thompson and Lonzo Ball. I wouldn't call that a big time shooter. Big time shooter can finish and score in isolation. Thompson was able to do that coming out if college and he turned into high end defender as well. . Nesmith just looks like an elite catch and shoot guy... Which is also stupid expensive to find and good fit for Zion.

It's tough. If we can trade Jrue and get me the 17th pick. I'd draft him. Lol

[luckyman]

We know his speed will translate, but that doesn't extend to much else about his game. Yes he has upside to add strength, but will he? He's 165lbs at 6'3, he would be one of the lightest players in the league even if he put on 25lbs, and how much will his speed survive that weight gain?

He's not a particularly skilled passer, although he definitely has flashes. His decision making is hit and miss. He's a pretty dreadful defender. He's not a particularly talented creator of his own shot off the dribble, especially in the halfcourt.

Now he is very young for a sophomore, so you can take the bet that his solid shooting does translate with NBA spacing (he has a decent FT% which helps that) and you can guess that he'll add weight while maintaining speed; it's possible.

But in that situation you are taking a lot of risks. I feel like Riller has more upside than he's shown in college still, but at least has given proof over multiple seasons of his ability to do what he can do. Ridiculous amounts of self creation, the efficiency at the rim is crazy, and when you're evaluating shooting you care about versatility of shot profile. Riller takes step backs, catch and shoots, comes off screens, pulls up, the whole shebang. That's encouraging.

Most scout reports I saw say Riller is the one who needs to improve his passing and effectiveness as a lead guard, not Lewis. Riller is regarded mostly as a scorer. Not a facilitator. Plus Fred Vinson (**please stay**) would have more work to do with Riller than Lewis, who has a much more fluid shot form right now.

Also 190 lb for a guard in the NBA isnt that unusual and I doubt he is actually 165 right now. He'd literally look like a stick figure if he was. And no, 25 more lbs at 6'3" won't affect his speed much at all. Might actually make him more explosive.

Riller isn't bad, but if it's down to Riller vs Lewis, give me Lewis all day.

[luckyman]

All ^^^ might be moot, because I have a feeling Lewis might have a Lillard type rise before the draft and end up going top 8. All thanks to Ja's success and effect on a Memphis squad that over achieved.

[Pelicanidae]

Most scout reports I saw say Riller is the one who needs to improve his passing and effectiveness as a lead guard, not Lewis. Riller is regarded mostly as a scorer. Not a facilitator. Plus Fred Vinson (**please stay**) would have more work to do with Riller than Lewis, who has a much more fluid shot form right now.

Also 190 lb for a guard in the NBA isnt that unusual and I doubt he is actually 165 right now. He'd literally look like a stick figure if he was. And no, 25 more lbs at 6'3" won't affect his speed much at all. Might actually make him more explosive.

Riller isn't bad, but if it's down to Riller vs Lewis, give me Lewis all day.

I'm going off my own evaluation and the evaluation of people I trust. I don't know which scouting reports you've been reading, so I can't really say what I think of them specifically, but anyone who thinks that Riller has further to go as a passer than Lewis doesn't share anything like my experience of viewing those two players.

Lewis has mediocre vision and often commits to drives and actions without engaging his brain, forcing him to make bailout last minute passes that often result in turnovers or the recipient being unable to do anything. Riller is not some super high level passer, but he's a very capable passer particularly in the PnR and he has a great feel for skip passes to the corners. He's not LaMelo with the vision or anything but he's certainly not subpar.

Riller is a superior shooter to Lewis. Vinson would have far more work to do with Lewis, who is a career 36% 3pt shooter with very little shot versatility, than with Riller who has basically the same percentage (36%) over 4 years but on a much higher level of shot difficulty. Riller has shown the ability to hit shots off pullups, off movement, on the catch, from deep behind NBA range, etc, whereas Kira hasn't really, not to the same degree.

[Pelicanidae]

And that's before we even get to at-rim production where Riller makes Lewis look like an incompetent.

In fairness, Riller makes most college guards look like an incompetent. I can't remember the exact statistics, though I've posted them somewhere in this thread before, but Riller shot basically 70% at the rim with less than 25% of his shots there assisted.

He was, arguably, the most impressive finisher in college basketball this year when you take position into account. He's 6'3 and he was about as efficient at the hoop as Obi Toppin was.

[luckyman]

Riller is a superior shooter to Lewis. Vinson would have far more work to do with Lewis...

This is where I bow out. The disagreement here is irreconcilable lol.

We went through this in the summertime BI threads. I said BI's shot form would allow him to easily be a 38%+ three point shooter and what do you know? He finished at 39%, and much of the season 40%+.

Same with Lewis. Much more pure stroke form than Riller right now. Those crazy shots Riller put up, with that form, won't work in the NBA...but you go ahead...

[Pelicanidae]

This is where I bow out. The disagreement here is irreconcilable lol.

We went through this in the summertime BI threads. I said BI's shot form would allow him to easily be a 38%+ three point shooter and what do you know? He finished at 39%, and much of the season 40%+.

Same with Lewis. Much more pure stroke form than Riller right now. Those crazy shots Riller put up, with that form, won't work in the NBA...but you go ahead...

We'll check back in 2 or 3 years to see who was right, I suppose

[Taker597]

Me: * Watching some dudes argue about guards in the 2020 draft and keeping receipts for 3 years*
*Come back in 3 years*
Me: Hmmmm.... Look like they both bust and half the draft aswell.

[Pelicanidae]

Me: * Watching some dudes argue about guards in the 2020 draft and keeping receipts for 3 years*
*Come back in 3 years*
Me: Hmmmm.... Look like they both bust and half the draft aswell.

Good thing I won't actually remember then, isn't it?

Got a memory like a colander

[fullcourtpress]

jordan nwora in the 2nd would be a coup. clutch shooter for big time team who gets better

he's slotted for the 2nd round mainly on athleticism...... but watch the first 50 seconds of his highlights. the first three plays refute that

"He is an average athlete, which may prove to be problematic " = bull********e

[PELICANSFAN]

Riller likely will drop if for no other reason, he is a 4 year senior. Those always seem to fall in the draft. Riller will be 24 in less than 6 months.

[Pelicanidae]

Riller likely will drop if for no other reason, he is a 4 year senior. Those always seem to fall in the draft. Riller will be 24 in less than 6 months.

This is true, it's also likely part of why Brandon Clarke fell (he was 23 at draft time, I think, which Riller would have been in a normal year).

But then, Clarke was fantastic for Memphis this year, including adding a 3 ball which a lot of people predicted he would, and showed that, once again, a great way to guarantee you draft a good basketball player who will be productive for your team, is by drafting a good basketball player who is productive on their existing team.

So maybe some team somewhere will have learned the lesson? Probably not.

[PELICANSFAN]

This is true, it's also likely part of why Brandon Clarke fell (he was 23 at draft time, I think, which Riller would have been in a normal year).

But then, Clarke was fantastic for Memphis this year, including adding a 3 ball which a lot of people predicted he would, and showed that, once again, a great way to guarantee you draft a good basketball player who will be productive for your team, is by drafting a good basketball player who is productive on their existing team.

So maybe some team somewhere will have learned the lesson? Probably not.

Not saying Clarke's drop was not a mistake, but unless the trend changes, it is usually how the draft falls.

[Pelicanidae]

Not saying Clarke's drop was not a mistake, but unless the trend changes, it is usually how the draft falls.

Oh sure, I think you're right. I just think it's a sign of a weakness in NBA drafting technique.

Happens basically every year. There's an older player, sometimes a handful of older players, that is clearly just very good at basketball. They put up good numbers, sweep the boards in advanced stats, and watching them is a joy. They're clearly a top 10 talent in the draft.

Then the draft comes, everyone sees they're 22 or 23, cringes and drafts some 18 year old who was awful but has ''upside''. Two or three years later, everyone is running around going ''how did we let X old player fall in the draft?! They were such a steal!'' whereas the 18 year old who just wasn't very good at basketball is on their way out of the league.

[Pelifan]

Don't see how you can dismiss the 4 year age difference between Kira and Riller, yet constantly bring up age to excuse all of Poku's shortcomings.

I mean I'm all for draft seniors. Usually they are my favorite players in the draft. But let's not act like Nesmith and Kira are bad college players and that age is the only distinguishing factor.

Nesmith has the extension, length and speed to be a good off screens shooter. Recent drafts have been pretty kind to pure shooters drafted between 10-20. My only real worry with him (besides his injury I guess) is he's a complete zero as a playmaker to a degree none of those guys come close. If Nesmith is putting the ball on the floor and it isn't a relocate dribble pull up he's going to throw something up around the rim. Which is partially why he was only average around the basket when IMO his footwork, use of his body, athleticism and touch are pretty good. I don't think he's a reach at all at 12.

Bane has an awkward release ala Eric Gordon and a 6'4" wingspan (Not the end of the world as Herro has the same, but he's much quicker and has a higher release). I don't think his hang dribble is going to create the kind of space it did for him in college, which hurts him a lot as he's pretty reliant on that move as a ball handler and he's allergic to drawing fouls. Where Bane really stands out to me is as a passer, he's really really good there. A good shooter and passer with strength should still be a first rounder, even if you think he doesn't have the length and footspeed to hang defensively.

Kira is what he is. It really depends on how special you think his speed is and how special you think Riller's short burst quickness is. But I think the playmaking/passing is meh for both players, but there's still potential there and Kira has better form on his spot up jumper for sure. Kira is farther away as a decision maker, scorer and finisher though, but he's young enough to hope for faster improvement and he definitely showed good improvement between freshman and sophomore seasons.

[Taker597]

.

I mean I'm all for draft seniors. Usually they are my favorite players in the draft. But let's not act like Nesmith and Kira are bad college players and that age is the only distinguishing factor.

Nesmith has the extension, length and speed to be a good off screens shooter. Recent drafts have been pretty kind to pure shooters drafted between 10-20. My only real worry with him (besides his injury I guess) is he's a complete zero as a playmaker to a degree none of those guys come close. If Nesmith is putting the ball on the floor and it isn't a relocate dribble pull up he's going to throw something up around the rim. Which is partially why he was only average around the basket when IMO his footwork, use of his body, athleticism and touch are pretty good. I don't think he's a reach at all at 12.

I mean... When does a team need 5 playmakers? I say you really just need 3 on the floor at all times. Elite roleplayers are crucial. Especially, when they simply fit better for Zion. Nesmith with his skillset as a motion shooter and if it's able to translate. He is really the best fit for Zion and both would really thrive at that 12th pick. He isn't the best talent at 12 and there is a gap. He's the kind of shooter that the draft have been kind to as of late when it comes to success. If he continues to improve like he did from his freshman to sophomore year. I'm on the bandwagon if we trade down or get a 15th pick.

[Taker597]

We lost the tiebreaker to Sac. We are 13th.

I think we are officially out of the running for Okoro, Poku, and I don't like the guards.

I'm saddling up on the Nesmith bandwagon. I'll go with fit pick that's a reach than gamble on guards.

[Pelicanidae]

Don't see how you can dismiss the 4 year age difference between Kira and Riller, yet constantly bring up age to excuse all of Poku's shortcomings.

I mean I'm all for draft seniors. Usually they are my favorite players in the draft. But let's not act like Nesmith and Kira are bad college players and that age is the only distinguishing factor.

It's a good thing I don't dot that then, and that I've given what must be thousands of words of detail in this thread as to why I think what I think about most players at the top of this draft.

[Eman5805]

We lost the tiebreaker to Sac. We are 13th.

I think we are officially out of the running for Okoro, Poku, and I don't like the guards.

I'm saddling up on the Nesmith bandwagon. I'll go with fit pick that's a reach than gamble on guards.

This isn’t a draft where we’re out on anyone. If we like one guy enough, we can always go get him.

Question is...who and why? Their workout and fit would have to be considerable.

Also, if we move Jrue to a team above us. Selling low on Jrue could mean claiming a high lotto pick in a down years

[Taker597]

This isn’t a draft where we’re out on anyone. If we like one guy enough, we can always go get him.

Question is...who and why? Their workout and fit would have to be considerable.

Also, if we move Jrue to a team above us. Selling low on Jrue could mean claiming a high lotto pick in a down years

Ehhh... If this was last year. I could see us getting a great haul from about any team before he got the MVP treatment from other teams and Covid hitting all the owners hard.

I see the best value for Jrue is going to a contender under a lot of pressure with the looming Covid Salary Cap hit and Tax line going to put some contenders in Tax Hell. We csn come out with some talented young pieces

It's kind of what you perfer Eman... More assets, more talent, or trying to get a balance for both in return for Jrue.

I'm watching the Nets as an ideal trade that benefit both teams and it doesn't get in our long term plans to be a contender. So, I want the Raptors to really crush the Nets.

[Pelifan]

I mean... When does a team need 5 playmakers? I say you really just need 3 on the floor at all times. Elite roleplayers are crucial. Especially, when they simply fit better for Zion. Nesmith with his skillset as a motion shooter and if it's able to translate. He is really the best fit for Zion and both would really thrive at that 12th pick. He isn't the best talent at 12 and there is a gap. He's the kind of shooter that the draft have been kind to as of late when it comes to success. If he continues to improve like he did from his freshman to sophomore year. I'm on the bandwagon if we trade down or get a 15th pick.

you'd still like a guy who has the ability to make an extra pass. If a shooter gets blitzed he needs to make the easy play. Klay, Herro, Huerter, Johnson, all had better assist numbers.

I'm convinced Nesmith is going lottery though. So you're not going to be able to trade down and get him. Not worth being greedy if he really is your guy. Im not even convinced he'll be there at 12 if the medicals check out.

Always take BPA though.

[Taker597]

you'd still like a guy who has the ability to make an extra pass. If a shooter gets blitzed he needs to make the easy play. Klay, Herro, Huerter, Johnson, all had better assist numbers.

I'm convinced Nesmith is going lottery though. So you're not going to be able to trade down and get him. Not worth being greedy if he really is your guy. Im not even convinced he'll be there at 12 if the medicals check out.

Always take BPA though.

We are drafting at 13 now.

[Pelifan]

We are drafting at 13 now.

weird somehow I thought the tiebreaker had already happened and we won it. Not sure how I missed it. Mandella effect I guess.....