October 26th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Houston Rockets - 0-2

[luckyman]

It's so annoying that every. single. year. this franchise has to start the season down 2,3,4 starters. Then go against teams that are fully healthy.

When does it end.

[bahmamamba]

It's so annoying that every. single. year. this franchise has to start the season down 2,3,4 starters. Then go against teams that are fully healthy.

When does it end.

that's what annoys you? I'm annoyed that every year we seem to always get the short end of the stick from refs unless it's and even worse team like home court is supposed to mean something and yet ours doesn't mean ******** to the refs

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[Pelicanidae]

So, I come back to a game thread after a cool game, and there's squabbling. Normal.

Anyway, I didn't comment throughout the game cause I had friends over to watch it (rare for me, nobody cares about basketball in the UK so I'm usually solo) but I figured I'd come drop my thoughts after the game still.

One thing that I'm not gonna talk about a ton is the number of shots we made: we had 3 guys in the starting lineup combine for 13 threes, and all of them shot better than 41% from deep. That's probably not going to happen all the time, just based on general likelihood. Sometimes you make shots, and in other games, they will miss them.

But what I will talk about and what I'm extremely impressed by is the number of threes certains guys took. Ingram took 7! One of the things I've complained most about before when it comes to Ingram is that he's a fan of long-twos, and shoots very low volume threes. That was true his first few years. He's now taken 7 threes in two consecutive games: that's a first in his career, and it's a very very very good sign. If Gentry has really gotten in his ear and convinced him to legitimately change his shot profile, that's huge.

I mean, here's Ingram's shot chart from this game:

Ingram shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/FeOPTLkw5L

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

It's not a perfect shot chart (still too many midrangers and FT line jumpers which aren't optimal) but you'll notice there's no weird 20 footers or anything. And last game, he only shot 1 mid range attempt in total. So while he's not quite there yet, this is definitely a trend in the right direction. Love to see it from him. And oh yeah, his defense was good again this game: that's been something that hasn't surprised me (I knew he was a solid 1-on-1 defender) but it's been pleasant to see it more consistently, since in the past he's been a little hit-or-miss in that category.

Honestly, if this trend continues with regards to his shooting profiles and his defense, Ingram could be in line for Most Improved Player votes. I don't expect the gaudy scoring numbers to continue (like I said, sometimes you miss shots instead of hitting them all, no matter who you are) and we have two high volume scorers in Jrue and Zion waiting to come back who will obviously need their shots, but that's not the point. I said before the year started that I don't need Ingram to average 25ppg for him to show real improvement, I just need to see better impact play. And so far, we're seeing that. Which is great!

One thing I would criticise about this game is Lonzo again. He hit 44% of his threes tonight so it feels kind of petty to be picking up on this, but he had some more ill-advised threes. That's not the kind of thing I like to see from him, and his volume of drives is still unpleasantly low: he took 9 threes and only 4 shots within 2 point range, which isn't optimal. Obviously it's not the end of the world, and if it was only one game I wouldn't even mention it, but it's kind of looking like a trend and that's not great. Still, like I said, he hit the threes tonight so it's kind of a moot point.

Hart has looked really good again for the third game in a row. He's really surprised me with his efficacy: he scored 23 tonight, and obviously that's unusual because he won't normally get 17 shots in most games, but still, he was efficient with them and look at the shot chart!

Josh Hart shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/CmRWSyOQdF

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

Now that is beautiful. Everything at the rim or behind the arc. You love to see it.

With regards to other players, Frank was a little cold but that's fine, NAW is still struggling to find his shot which isn't great but isn't the end of the world for a rookie 3 games in. Melli was good, Favors barely played. Kenrich did really cool Kenrich things as always.

Good game. Totally don't mind the loss, this game had a lot of good signs in it with regards to trends and habits, which is what you wanna see. When you're missing your two best players, fighting this close of a game is totally fine with me even if you lose.

[GuardianAngel25]

Was really encouraged by what I saw, and have seen. This team can compete with anyone when healthy..

I was mocked for wanting this trade but we absolutely hit it out the park! Ingram is going to prove he alone was worthy of a trade for AD when it’s all said and done but to get Lonzo, Hart, all of those 1st and pick swaps is just insane. Not only that but we landed Zion/Hayes/NAW in the same draft!? This team is going to be very dangerous but people need to trust the process because it’s going to take a little time. With Zion this team is 3-0 imo no question. I just don’t know how teams are going to defend Zion and Ingram on the wings.

[SonOfNOLA]

This game will come down to free throw attempts. We won’t stop Harden and Westbrook from getting to the line, but this game won’t be close if we can’t come close to matching their attempts.

Crazy that this was exactly the reason why Houston won a close game. Pels 16 attempts vs Houston’s 30 attempts, 22 of them coming from Harden and Westbrook evenly. A lot of them coming from Harden just flailing his arms up looking for the refs attention. It’s hard to win when the Pels are in a hole with the refs favoritism before the game even start, and Ingram/Ball/Hart not drawing fouls at the basket .

[Nichols]

So, I come back to a game thread after a cool game, and there's squabbling. Normal.

Anyway, I didn't comment throughout the game cause I had friends over to watch it (rare for me, nobody cares about basketball in the UK so I'm usually solo) but I figured I'd come drop my thoughts after the game still.

One thing that I'm not gonna talk about a ton is the number of shots we made: we had 3 guys in the starting lineup combine for 13 threes, and all of them shot better than 41% from deep. That's probably not going to happen all the time, just based on general likelihood. Sometimes you make shots, and in other games, they will miss them.

But what I will talk about and what I'm extremely impressed by is the number of threes certains guys took. Ingram took 7! One of the things I've complained most about before when it comes to Ingram is that he's a fan of long-twos, and shoots very low volume threes. That was true his first few years. He's now taken 7 threes in two consecutive games: that's a first in his career, and it's a very very very good sign. If Gentry has really gotten in his ear and convinced him to legitimately change his shot profile, that's huge.

I mean, here's Ingram's shot chart from this game:

Ingram shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/FeOPTLkw5L

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

It's not a perfect shot chart (still too many midrangers and FT line jumpers which aren't optimal) but you'll notice there's no weird 20 footers or anything. And last game, he only shot 1 mid range attempt in total. So while he's not quite there yet, this is definitely a trend in the right direction. Love to see it from him. And oh yeah, his defense was good again this game: that's been something that hasn't surprised me (I knew he was a solid 1-on-1 defender) but it's been pleasant to see it more consistently, since in the past he's been a little hit-or-miss in that category.

Honestly, if this trend continues with regards to his shooting profiles and his defense, Ingram could be in line for Most Improved Player votes. I don't expect the gaudy scoring numbers to continue (like I said, sometimes you miss shots instead of hitting them all, no matter who you are) and we have two high volume scorers in Jrue and Zion waiting to come back who will obviously need their shots, but that's not the point. I said before the year started that I don't need Ingram to average 25ppg for him to show real improvement, I just need to see better impact play. And so far, we're seeing that. Which is great!

One thing I would criticise about this game is Lonzo again. He hit 44% of his threes tonight so it feels kind of petty to be picking up on this, but he had some more ill-advised threes. That's not the kind of thing I like to see from him, and his volume of drives is still unpleasantly low: he took 9 threes and only 4 shots within 2 point range, which isn't optimal. Obviously it's not the end of the world, and if it was only one game I wouldn't even mention it, but it's kind of looking like a trend and that's not great. Still, like I said, he hit the threes tonight so it's kind of a moot point.

Hart has looked really good again for the third game in a row. He's really surprised me with his efficacy: he scored 23 tonight, and obviously that's unusual because he won't normally get 17 shots in most games, but still, he was efficient with them and look at the shot chart!

Josh Hart shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/CmRWSyOQdF

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

Now that is beautiful. Everything at the rim or behind the arc. You love to see it.

With regards to other players, Frank was a little cold but that's fine, NAW is still struggling to find his shot which isn't great but isn't the end of the world for a rookie 3 games in. Melli was good, Favors barely played. Kenrich did really cool Kenrich things as always.

Good game. Totally don't mind the loss, this game had a lot of good signs in it with regards to trends and habits, which is what you wanna see. When you're missing your two best players, fighting this close of a game is totally fine with me even if you lose.

Thanks for the shot charts after the games..

[Pelicanidae]

Thanks for the shot charts after the games..

No problem, I really think looking at them can clarify a few things. Sometimes during the game you lose track of exactly what shots have been taken, and it can clear up some thoughts on shot-selection to see them all just laid out there.

[Nichols]

I was mocked for wanting this trade but we absolutely hit it out the park! Ingram is going to prove he alone was worthy of a trade for AD when it’s all said and done but to get Lonzo, Hart, all of those 1st and pick swaps is just insane. Not only that but we landed Zion/Hayes/NAW in the same draft!? This team is going to be very dangerous but people need to trust the process because it’s going to take a little time. With Zion this team is 3-0 imo no question. I just don’t know how teams are going to defend Zion and Ingram on the wings.

Yea the thing is we don't have to wait to see what Zion is going to bring.. The guy hit the ground running, he's already a problem. And despite a not so great start, I'm still high on NAW, I expect him to be good by mid-season if he continues to get playing time.

[akhan786]

Harden's and Westbrook's stats over-inflate their value

They're going to get smacked in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles more (which happens every year for these two frauds)

*They're great players....but MVP's?

[GuardianAngel25]

LoL still you somehow try to throw shade on Ingram. Seriously pathetic. Lying as if he has never taken 3s like this when you have barely watched the guy at all during his career. Acting like his shot profile is anything different when that’s one of your consistent complaints but it’s only when he misses. Those mid rangers are only bad when he misses lol. If you actually watched the game like you said his bread and butter all night long was the mid range game not his 4 made 3pt shots. Guy was lights out in all facets but you just hope Gentry got in his ear about how terrible his shot selection use to be.. lol.. Every little compliment you gave was followed up by but when he was 15 he shot 34% from 3pt.. Please go find me one 18-21 year old that didn’t take some bad shots in their first year or 2.. Is he still the hot trash heap of garbage that is a ball stopper and analytically the worst? The shot charts are great but again they prove just about nothing had Ingram went 2-7 from 3pt and missed some mid rangers you would lose it.. good tool to hedge your bets though.

[luckyman]

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots +/- 2-3 ft of FT line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add a pull up at that range to his game.

[bahmamamba]

Harden's and Westbrook's stats over-inflate their value

They're going to get smacked in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles more (which happens every year for these two frauds)

*They're great players....but MVP's?

and that's the problem I have with this entire thing you call these barely fouls during the season but some how they don't count during the playoffs? tell me again how refs don't control games

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[Nichols]

Harden's and Westbrook's stats over-inflate their value

They're going to get smacked in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles more (which happens every year for these two frauds)

*They're great players....but MVP's?

Never been a fan of either, but Harden is the bigger fraud. He'd still be an above average player without the refs help, but I don't like players who's bread n butter is tricking the refs into making calls.

[bahmamamba]

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots around the Ft line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add it to his game.

shots are good period I'm so sick of this at the basket or take a 3 crap guess what 2 points is more them none

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[kinglio21093]

I think we'll compete, but ultimately lose.

Hey looks like I was right.

Once again, very encouraged by the boys tonight. The guys from the AD trade absolutely KILLED IT. We just need to be better with stupid mistakes. Too many turnovers in the first half, and we got too 3 happy. Took wayyyyy too many 3s.

But outside of that, I LOVE what we have. Can you imagine once Zion gets back??? Oooooh weeee.

[Nichols]

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots +/- 2-3 ft of FT line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add a pull up at that range to his game.

Yea its been an issue for Zo, the in between game. He knows it and is working on it.

[Pelicanidae]

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots +/- 2-3 ft of FT line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add a pull up at that range to his game.

A FT jumper is only optimal if it's the optimal shot in a given situation. Probably 2 thirds of the time that Ingram takes a midrange jumper, he could get closer and take a shot at the rim, and he just refuses it. A shot at the rim is always better than a shot from 15 feet. So if you're turning down a shot at the rim because you'd rather take a 15 footer, that's not optimal.

Nobody has ever said that only 3s and layups are good shots. So... yeah. Midrange shots are totally fine in a bunch of situations. They just shouldn't be your priority: midrange shots should be fairly low down on your list of ''shots in order of priority''. If you've got the ball at 16 feet and there's only 4 seconds on the shot clock, sure, take a midranger.

[Pelicanidae]

Also, I just love how defensive some people get.

I make a post saying: ''wow, impressed by Ingram, he's shooting more threes than ever which is great, he's making a much better impact than before, love his consistency on defense, if he keeps this up he'll be a Most Improved candidate! Hope he keeps cutting out the unnecessary midrangers!''

And I immediately get like 3 people responding to me like ''WHAT?! THE MIDRANGERS ARE FINE! How dare you!''

[Pelicanidae]

I'm just gonna say it now:

If Zion's healthy, we're 3-0 at this point. I'm confident in that.

[GuardianAngel25]

I fully 100% expected everything I am seeing from Ingram just not so consistent this soon after so much time off from basketball. Again he couldn’t even lift his right arm up with a basketball or do anything but watch TV for nearly 6 months and just recently came back! He also just turned 22 years old so my stance on him and what the rest who didn’t know much about him before is get use to this because we are just seeing the beginnings of his best basketball.

I was also fully 100% confident in Lonzo. My issue was his dad and our small organization on being able to handle the drama along with the pressure that comes with it. After seeing this is a complete non issue by also getting a good glimpse into Lonzos maturity by watching his TV show I’m all in. When he first came into the NBA he thought a Ceazar Salad with tons of ranch and a side of French fries was healthy. Now he has a private chef while doing many other things to maintain his health and be at peak performance. Where he was at in his life as well it couldn’t have went better for him then getting out of LA to a team like ours. Again we need to take his age into account and just how good he can become. He has an all around skill set to be a legit star PG as he continues working on his offensive game. Lonzo is showing he can become a very good 3pt shooter especially with more time as he just changed his shot. He needs to add a consistent pull up mid range as well while becoming more aggressive attacking the rim. These are areas he can very easily make huge strides in over the next few years with what we are already seeing. Also a big myth is Lonzo couldn’t shoot which was simply not true as in Ben Simmons case. Lonzo absolutely would light it up at UCLA and was being compared to Steph as he developed working on his form. The issue was we didn’t see any change in his form and now we have.

I see Ingram and Lonzo being 40%+ 3pt shooters next season and beyond if not this year. I also see them making drastic improvements at the FT line each getting to 75%+.. Call me crazy but I believe Ingram will become similar to Durant efficiently and that is from the FT line as well. I don’t know if he will ever get to 90% from FT but 80%+ is to be expected after this season. We got 2 studs in these 2. Hart is the real under rated one who will be a fan favorite. A legit 2 way SG/SF who can average 17+ ppg shooting 40%+ 3pt..

This talent right here developing into what I believe they all will be is a legit dynasty and that’s without hitting on a single draft pick. Not only is this group elite potentially they also compliment each other so well with their versatility and such different dynamic skill sets. We have an entire starting lineup of star caliber players who each play a different position being able to grow with the oldest of the group being 22 years old.

Generational SuperStar - Zion - PF
SuperStar Wing - Ingram - SF
AllStar Point Guard - Ball - PG
Star Combo Guard - NAW - SG
AllStar Center - Hayes - C
Hart/Frank/Okafor weren’t included as I believe they are all going to be huge role players going forward that every team needs to win. They are all 3 very selfless players who have winning in their DNA. Hart/Frank have legit 6th man award talent who could be very solid NBA starters.

[luckyman]

A FT jumper is only optimal if it's the optimal shot in a given situation. Probably 2 thirds of the time that Ingram takes a midrange jumper, he could get closer and take a shot at the rim, and he just refuses it. A shot at the rim is always better than a shot from 15 feet. So if you're turning down a shot at the rim because you'd rather take a 15 footer, that's not optimal.

Nobody has ever said that only 3s and layups are good shots. So... yeah. Midrange shots are totally fine in a bunch of situations. They just shouldn't be your priority: midrange shots should be fairly low down on your list of ''shots in order of priority''. If you've got the ball at 16 feet and there's only 4 seconds on the shot clock, sure, take a midranger.

Yes plenty have said only 3s and layups are good shots in recent years. I have ears and eyes. And I dont see Ingram making midrange shots a "priority". When he's taken them he's being guarded with help waiting at the rim. Which is why it is a good shot to take. I have never seen him pull up for a midrange shot with open space near the rim. The midrange is something every player should have in their toolbox, and all the best wing players in the league take and make them.

Your take on midrange shots is just off. Imo.

[ragincaucasian]

I just hope we can hang in there with at least a .500 record until Zion gets back.

[Pelicanidae]

Yes plenty have said only 3s and layups are good shots in recent years. I have ears and eyes. And I dont see Ingram making midrange shots a "priority". When he's taken them he's being guarded with help waiting at the rim. Which is why it is a good shot to take. I have never seen him pull up for a midrange shot with open space near the rim. The midrange is something every player should have in their toolbox, and all the best wing players in the league take and make them.

Your take on midrange shots is just off. Imo.

Okay, I'll clarify: ''nobody who actually knows what they're talking about has said only 3s and layups are good shots''. Basically all actual analysts think midrangers are fine, just very situational and rarely optimal. Seth Partnow, ex-head of analytics for the Bucks, has a good talk on this actually.

Yeah, I don't think we have the same view on what's open and what's guarded at all. You see my take on midrangers as off, cool. I see yours in the same way. Not worth arguing over.

[13 - 3]

Monty might beat the Clippers tonight

[luckyman]

Okay, I'll clarify: ''nobody who actually knows what they're talking about has said only 3s and layups are good shots''. Basically all actual analysts think midrangers are fine, just very situational and rarely optimal. Seth Partnow, ex-head of analytics for the Bucks, has a good talk on this actually.

Yeah, I don't think we have the same view on what's open and what's guarded at all. You see my take on midrangers as off, cool. I see yours in the same way. Not worth arguing over.

Yeah. I dont see mid range jumpers as "very situational" or "rarely optimal" At ALL. It's a key part of any player's offensive repertoire. I wish Favors had it.

And Brandon Ingram is very good at it...thus his all-star like start to the season. Hope he keeps it up.