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Thread: Official Summer League Games Thread

  1. #1226
    I'll just go ahead and state the obvious. Hayes has 3 things that he needs to work on. Preferably in the G-League.

    1. Understanding the defense along with positioning - He is ball watching trying to get the big block. This allows the man that he's covering to get deep position which negates his defensive advantage.

    2. He depends upon his athleticism too much - sometimes he doesn't seem to be in full control of his body defensively. This is the same problem that Diallo had. Once he understands how to jump straight up in the air and not foul. He will be a BEAST.

    3. Develop a dependable post game - With his quick bounce I would love to see him develop a right/left hand hook. He has a nice form to his jumper so developing consistency is a must.

    25 lbs of muscle would be nice

  2. #1227
    Bearing in mind I know very little about NBA talent development, it seems like the Pels are trying to create a positive and nurturing environment by bringing in the right leaders and promoting a winning, team and family-based culture. If that's the case, would they not want to have their best young players, like Hayes, in that environment - to learn, to develop and to be moulded in line with the vision of the organisation? Would someone like Hayes get that same exposure in G-league?

  3. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    And reminder, Pelicans have their own g league team now. Which I hear players like Jaxson will be assigned a coach they work with separately that will follow them to the g league squad in PA.

    I also seriously have to question college/high school coaching. What exactly were they teaching for someone to come to the NBA so raw on basics? How can Ben Simmons make it all these years not being able to shoot a basketball? Perplexing.
    There's very few college coaches who actually teach anymore especially fundementals

    Sent from my SM-S903VL using Tapatalk

  4. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by bahmamamba View Post
    There's very few college coaches who actually teach anymore especially fundementals
    High school too.

    Basically, college coaches don't try and build good teams. They try and recruit talent. And as we know, stacking up talent isn't the same as assembling a functional team: last year's Duke roster is a great example. The way that team was built was appalling. It had three inside scorers, one shooter on the entire roster, and couldn't create spacing to save its life. But Coach K didn't care because his job is not to have a roster that can compete for multiple years, but instead to have multiple individuals on it who can make the NBA. Preferably at a high draft position.

    As a result, since the turnover is so quick, since there's so little time for college coaches to get to know most of their recruits, there's very little focus on building that coach-student relationship. That's not to say there's no relationship at all, there is, but there isn't time to take on a long term player development strategy: these kids are going to be gone in 9 months, max. So they just don't bother. RJ enters college unable to finish with his right, he leaves college unable to finish with his right. Reddish enters college with inconsistent jumpshot mechanics, he leaves college with inconsistent jumpshot mechanics. Hayes enters college without having been shown proper box out fundamentals, he leaves college without those fundamentals. That's part of why guys who go back to college for a year (NAW) often look so impressive coming out of college. It's not because being one year older actually fixes things for them, it's because staying in college extends their time to work on their fundamentals and build experience before being thrown into the fire.

    Then, of course, you have the ''overwhelming physical advantage'' issue. Zion, for example: how has he made it this far without having to develop a jump shot? Simple: he's been bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic, smarter, and has had better instincts and touch than damn near everyone he's ever played against. As a result, it's easy for you to neglect certain aspects of your game since you've literally never had to work on them before. Why develop a jump shot when you can just drive, overpower anyone, finish through any contact, and score at nearly 70% at the rim? Simmons had similar experiences. The benefit is that the touch translates, and if they're a hard worker, they'll be able to add the jumper.
    Basketball.

  5. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmieZ View Post
    I'll just go ahead and state the obvious. Hayes has 3 things that he needs to work on. Preferably in the G-League.

    1. Understanding the defense along with positioning - He is ball watching trying to get the big block. This allows the man that he's covering to get deep position which negates his defensive advantage.

    2. He depends upon his athleticism too much - sometimes he doesn't seem to be in full control of his body defensively. This is the same problem that Diallo had. Once he understands how to jump straight up in the air and not foul. He will be a BEAST.

    3. Develop a dependable post game - With his quick bounce I would love to see him develop a right/left hand hook. He has a nice form to his jumper so developing consistency is a must.

    25 lbs of muscle would be nice
    25lbs of muscle would be very nice, and his frame looks like it can take it, but I wouldn't expect that in one year. Maybe 10lbs or so. 15 at a stretch.

    The first two issues essentially come down to big man fundamentals. No doubt he needs work on those. He's been 7'0 for all of about 2 minutes and nobody has bothered to take the time to really show him how to play like someone who's 7 feet tall. So he's twitchy, needs more time to get used to his body, use verticality, box out, etc.

    The post game though, there's a bright side for you: he showed a lot of promise with his right handed hook shots in college, he hit probably close to a dozen of them and they looked really good. He even hit one in his first game of Summer League. It's not polished yet, but his touch is legitimate, and he'll be able to make that into a real shot. That's not even to mention his face up midrange game, which looks extremely promising.

  6. #1231
    It took AD 4 years before he could hold weight 250 lbs. I guess I'm just gonna be in the camp that 10 minutes of NBA playing time, training with our roster and coaches 24/7 is way better than spinning his wheels in gleague where he get he lesser time to develop with the staff and players. Where he possibly could develop bad habits and being coddle too much. If he wanted to play in the G-League. He probably should of stayed in college..... Yeah, nope to either.

  7. #1232
    Who does NAW remind you of?

    I think his cousin is the most obvious point of comparison, in terms of pace, skill level, feel and length. SGA is longer, perhaps a bit more athletic and might have a better midrange game and in-between game (though NAW is no slouch there). Both are crafty finishers around the rim who use skill and length. Weirdly, although SGA is considered more of a point guard and NAW is considered more of a combo guard, NAW has flashed more high level passing abiity in summer league than I've seen from SGA. SGA reminds me of Jrue in that he makes safe, logical passes within the flow of the offense, NAW likes to make difficult and creative passes and pass guys open. This can be a good thing or a bad thing.

    NAW looks to be a better 3 point shooter. He is aggressive in taking those shots, likes to give the ball up and relocate, has a quick release and shoots confidently both on spot ups and off-the-dribble.

    Other players I am reminded of: if younger, post-injury Shaun Livingston shot 3s; a flashier version of Malcolm Brogdon; thinner, better shooting Caris Levert.
    Last edited by Biasvasospasm; 07-14-2019 at 12:18 PM.

  8. #1233
    The thing I like about Hayes is he is a willing shooter. I don’t care if that is a weakness in his game, but he doesn’t panic if the pass isn’t on and will take the shot. So many bigs will just waste a possession by panicking on the ball. Hayes at least shows the right mentality.

  9. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    The thing I like about Hayes is he is a willing shooter. I don’t care if that is a weakness in his game, but he doesn’t panic if the pass isn’t on and will take the shot. So many bigs will just waste a possession by panicking on the ball. Hayes at least shows the right mentality.
    For a guy that only had like 6 fga in college. He sure does handle it well. Go from 6 to 15 attempts per game is sink or swim to be honest..


    He attempted a 169 fg in his entire year of college. In 3 summer league games... He has 38 fga in just 3 games.
    Last edited by Taker597; 07-14-2019 at 12:43 PM.

  10. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    The thing I like about Hayes is he is a willing shooter. I don’t care if that is a weakness in his game, but he doesn’t panic if the pass isn’t on and will take the shot. So many bigs will just waste a possession by panicking on the ball. Hayes at least shows the right mentality.
    Exactly, and I think for a guy with so little experience in terms of shooting the ball from distance, that's the best sign you can have. Minor tweaks to shooting form are possible, especially with a dude so raw (although Hayes' form is remarkably fluid for a guy without serious coaching in that department), but just being willing to take that open shot says so much. Like you said, lots of bigs out there who catch the ball 18 feet out and just freeze.

  11. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Exactly, and I think for a guy with so little experience in terms of shooting the ball from distance, that's the best sign you can have. Minor tweaks to shooting form are possible, especially with a dude so raw (although Hayes' form is remarkably fluid for a guy without serious coaching in that department), but just being willing to take that open shot says so much. Like you said, lots of bigs out there who catch the ball 18 feet out and just freeze.
    *Asik flashbacks*

    Make the pain stop

  12. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    *Asik flashbacks*

    Make the pain stop
    I got serious Asik flashbacks watching Bigby-Williams fumble every catch last night.... *shudders* urgh

    Glad to see AD paying homage to his player-coach and mentor, Omer Asik, when he chose to wear #3 for the Lakers. Gotta pay respects to your superiors.

  13. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I got serious Asik flashbacks watching Bigby-Williams fumble every catch last night.... *shudders* urgh

    Glad to see AD paying homage to his player-coach and mentor, Omer Asik, when he chose to wear #3 for the Lakers. Gotta pay respects to your superiors.
    When we gave up a 1st round pick for Omer Asik and then to proceed to give him a contract extension... Then traded a 1st round pick to get rid of said contract. I was 100% checked out till Demps was fired. I know quite a few people defended Demps to the bitter end while Boogie trade looked like a hit and chastised me for being objective with championship teams don't get built like that with no picks for 7 years. It look worse after seeing the big picture of all his deals and missteps.

    Omer Asik basically embodied everything wrong with the Dell Demps/AD era of taking shortcuts rather than investing into scouting/Drafting.


    I was wrong about Gentry tho. I hope we promote him to front office.

  14. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I got serious Asik flashbacks watching Bigby-Williams fumble every catch last night.... *shudders* urgh

    Glad to see AD paying homage to his player-coach and mentor, Omer Asik, when he chose to wear #3 for the Lakers. Gotta pay respects to your superiors.
    People like to defend Asik, but he was such a negative offensively that he was never a starting caliber player. You cannot have someone that is such a black hole in the starting lineup take any kind of responsibility offensively, so it was like playing with 4 men. Houston made it work, but he was asked to do next to nothing there.

  15. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    When we gave up a 1st round pick for Omer Asik and then to proceed to give him a contract extension... Then traded a 1st round pick to get rid of said contract. I was 100% checked out till Demps was fired. I know quite a few people defended Demps to the bitter end while Boogie trade looked like a hit and chastised me for being objective with championship teams don't get built like that with no picks for 7 years. It look worse after seeing the big picture of all his deals and missteps.

    Omer Asik basically embodied everything wrong with the Dell Demps/AD era of taking shortcuts rather than investing into scouting/Drafting.


    I was wrong about Gentry tho. I hope we promote him to front office.
    I think Dell made big mistakes. There's no question about that. If he had done everything perfectly, we would have been a playoff team every year and eventually a contender, and we weren't. So there can be no debate that he was imperfect. He tried to quickstart the process, and I get why he did it (apparently he had a mandate to win as soon as possible) but it didn't work, and that style of action never works in the NBA. At least not long term.

    He also made some very good choices. Bringing Emeka Okafor back was big. The Mirotic trade was very good, fantastic even. We know how well the Jrue deal has turned out for us. Dell failed, sure, but I'm past the point of caring about it now.

    My only concern is what we do moving forward. I've long argued that the best way to build a team is, at least for the formation of the core, through the draft. Draft well, draft smart, put serious time and energy into player development, gather future assets, and then when you know what you have with your young core you can trade surplus assets or mediocre players in packages to garner those missing pieces later on. It has to start from the draft. Golden State, Denver, Utah, Milwaukee, so much of what they've done right has come from drafting. Whether that's Curry, Klay, Draymond, or Jokic, Murray, Morris, or Mitchell and Gobert, or Giannis and Brogdon.

    Griff seems to be doing that.

    Whether Gentry is a good coach or not remains to be seen. His career is still a losing one. But this year, he has players who are good: and plenty of them. He has players he is on record saying he wanted (Lonzo, for example). He has a team with defensive versatility, high IQ players, a couple of good shooters, young talent, athletes who can run and fit his style. Barring injury, he has no excuse. He's gotta show this year that he's got the stuff.

  16. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    People like to defend Asik, but he was such a negative offensively that he was never a starting caliber player. You cannot have someone that is such a black hole in the starting lineup take any kind of responsibility offensively, so it was like playing with 4 men. Houston made it work, but he was asked to do next to nothing there.
    Asik was bad. His deal was bad. I get why Dell paid him, even though it was an overpay even at the time, as he was coming off some impressive time in Houston. But the deal was too much money for too many years, and it ended up swinging around to bite us. Asik was just never that calibre of player, and the NBA was going in a direction that made him even more of a marginal figure at the time.

  17. #1242
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    Any word on who's gonna be playing tonight? The prospect of potentially playing some of our best young guys 3 days in a row kind of scares me

  18. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by Nola3 View Post
    Any word on who's gonna be playing tonight? The prospect of potentially playing some of our best young guys 3 days in a row kind of scares me
    Not sure yet. If they decide to play everyone, it will be because the staff have checked them out and okayed them. If they decide to set anyone, or everyone, I will completely understand why.

  19. #1244
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    When we gave up a 1st round pick for Omer Asik and then to proceed to give him a contract extension... Then traded a 1st round pick to get rid of said contract. I was 100% checked out till Demps was fired. I know quite a few people defended Demps to the bitter end while Boogie trade looked like a hit and chastised me for being objective with championship teams don't get built like that with no picks for 7 years. It look worse after seeing the big picture of all his deals and missteps.

    Omer Asik basically embodied everything wrong with the Dell Demps/AD era of taking shortcuts rather than investing into scouting/Drafting.


    I was wrong about Gentry tho. I hope we promote him to front office.
    The Asik hate is ALL hindsight revisionist fluff.

    Asik was progressing really well at the time and it was still in the era where you HAD to have a big man. To contend. There were half as many good big men as there were teams, so people were vastly overpaying for them.

    The year Asik signed the contract was the first year of the Warrior's dynasty and the cataclysmic shift in the NBA from banging big men to 3pt shooting. If we're going to nail Demps for not reading the writing on the wall and seeing the change, go for it, but really no one saw that coming. So you'd also be lying if you said you did. To make things even worse, he suffered that massive injury and then got the horrific infection.

    TL;DR: Hate on the Asik deal all you want but it comes across like a US politician in 2001 later hating on the war on terrorism down the road after all the dust has settled.
    Good positive energy.

    But also, yo mama's fat.

  20. #1245
    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    The Asik hate is ALL hindsight revisionist fluff.

    Asik was progressing really well at the time and it was still in the era where you HAD to have a big man. To contend. There were half as many good big men as there were teams, so people were vastly overpaying for them.

    The year Asik signed the contract was the first year of the Warrior's dynasty and the cataclysmic shift in the NBA from banging big men to 3pt shooting. If we're going to nail Demps for not reading the writing on the wall and seeing the change, go for it, but really no one saw that coming. So you'd also be lying if you said you did. To make things even worse, he suffered that massive injury and then got the horrific infection.

    TL;DR: Hate on the Asik deal all you want but it comes across like a US politician in 2001 later hating on the war on terrorism down the road after all the dust has settled.
    Lmao... okay. Nah, he was overrated back from his Houston days. Throw that straw man arguement in the dumpster. The only revisionist is this Omer was progressing really well. He was always an average player.

  21. #1246

  22. #1247


    Great little video here of Hayes, who was apparently mic'ed up for the Cavs game. There's some pretty good communication on here, vocal players are always a positive. Getting the team involved, keeping everyone aware of everything going on.

  23. #1248
    Quote Originally Posted by msusousaphone View Post
    The Asik hate is ALL hindsight revisionist fluff.

    Asik was progressing really well at the time and it was still in the era where you HAD to have a big man. To contend. There were half as many good big men as there were teams, so people were vastly overpaying for them.

    The year Asik signed the contract was the first year of the Warrior's dynasty and the cataclysmic shift in the NBA from banging big men to 3pt shooting. If we're going to nail Demps for not reading the writing on the wall and seeing the change, go for it, but really no one saw that coming. So you'd also be lying if you said you did. To make things even worse, he suffered that massive injury and then got the horrific infection.

    TL;DR: Hate on the Asik deal all you want but it comes across like a US politician in 2001 later hating on the war on terrorism down the road after all the dust has settled.
    Sorry buddy but I called the Asik deal horrible when it happened. The man brought the ball down every time and killed our ball movement. He didn’t have great hands and he wasn’t very mobile. Stop being disingenuous with this “wahhh revisionist history wahh” and make a fair argument for once. If you want to argue that his rebounding and defense made up for his shortcomings, fine.

  24. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Sorry buddy but I called the Asik deal horrible when it happened. The man brought the ball down every time and killed our ball movement. He didn’t have great hands and he wasn’t very mobile. Stop being disingenuous with this “wahhh revisionist history wahh” and make a fair argument for once. If you want to argue that his rebounding and defense made up for his shortcomings, fine.
    I would also add that the war on terror analogy is poor because literally millions of people knew that that was a terrible idea before it happened. So if you think the Asik deal is equivalent, all you're saying is that massive numbers of people knew that it was stupid in advance but that the people in charge did it anyway.

    Which isn't actually that inaccurate, when you think about it.

  25. #1250
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I would also add that the war on terror analogy is poor because literally millions of people knew that that was a terrible idea before it happened. So if you think the Asik deal is equivalent, all you're saying is that massive numbers of people knew that it was stupid in advance but that the people in charge did it anyway.

    Which isn't actually that inaccurate, when you think about it.
    God forbid someobody have an opinion about a player he supports. Strawmen, strawmen everywhere

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