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Thread: Official Summer League Games Thread

  1. #926
    AD still struggling to create shots for himself outside of 15 ft (his points are heavily assisted) and that jumper being on and off is a dirty little secret only die hard Pelicans fans know (and some advanced stat nerds). It's also why he's not a top 5 player.

    The national media will become aware of it and use him as Lebron's scapegoat soon if he doesnt improve it next year.

  2. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    AD still struggling to create shots for himself outside of 15 ft (his points are heavily assisted) and that jumper being on and off is a dirty little secret only die hard Pelicans fans know (and some advanced stat nerds). It's also why he's not a top 5 player.

    The national media will become aware of it and use him as Lebron's scapegoat soon if he doesnt improve it next year.
    Ad shot jumpers in college made a few threes too . His first ever made nba basket was a jump shot . He could always shoot jumpers pretty well

  3. #928
    The Franchise Creative's Avatar
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    Our young core played another great game. On defence and ofence they are showing us a bright side of their talent . This is great !

  4. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by bdnp1 View Post
    Ad shot jumpers in college made a few threes too . His first ever made nba basket was a jump shot . He could always shoot jumpers pretty well
    Thats not true. Thats not true at all.

  5. #930
    AD shot 15% from 3 in college, and like I said, shot 33% from midrange in his rookie season.

    Regardless of what you think of his jumper now in 2019, he simply hasn't been able to ''always shoot jumpers pretty well''.
    Zion ''The Earthquake'' Williamson

    Paying attention to the next draft too early.

  6. #931
    Exhibit C Nola3's Avatar
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    Feel like we're getting caught up in minor, unimportant details here (who would have guessed?). AD was a better prospect than Hayes. By a mile. But AD was also a generational prospect. Hayes has looked so much better than I think most of us anticipated and once he gets in the weight room and gets in NBA condition (my boy was straight gassed by the middle of the third quarter tonight) he should be one hell of an exciting NBA player.

  7. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Nola3 View Post
    Feel like we're getting caught up in minor, unimportant details here (who would have guessed?). AD was a better prospect than Hayes. By a mile. But AD was also a generational prospect. Hayes has looked so much better than I think most of us anticipated and once he gets in the weight room and gets in NBA condition (my boy was straight gassed by the middle of the third quarter tonight) he should be one hell of an exciting NBA player.
    AD was a better prospect coming out overall, no doubt. Especially defensively. Hayes has shown a lot of promise on that end but AD was possibly the most gifted college big, at least defensively, since... god knows when.

    The question is just hands and distance shooting. Like you said, minor

  8. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Nola3 View Post
    Feel like we're getting caught up in minor, unimportant details here (who would have guessed?). AD was a better prospect than Hayes. By a mile. But AD was also a generational prospect. Hayes has looked so much better than I think most of us anticipated and once he gets in the weight room and gets in NBA condition (my boy was straight gassed by the middle of the third quarter tonight) he should be one hell of an exciting NBA player.
    It's not minor or unimportant. Hayes seems more of a wildcard because he didnt get the exposure AD got in Kentucky nor was he as touted as a high school prospect. Defensively and rebounding yes AD was far ahead of Hayes. I still contend next year needs to be a "red-shirt" type year for Hayes. He needs body core strengthening and he's wild.

    But looking long-term, some aspects of Hayes game is ahead of ADs on the offensive end at this very early point in both their careers. And defensively he's not that far behind. Again, looking long-term, that bodes well for who Hayes can become 3/4 years from now.
    Last edited by luckyman; 07-10-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  9. #934

  10. #935
    Just a little reading on where AD is closer to now (article little over a year old).

    But other high-scoring bigs – like Joel Embiid and Davis’ own teammate, DeMarcus Cousins – are assisted far less often. Davis, who famously played guard before a growth spurt in high school, is also a modern big capable of handling the ball and shooting from deep.

    Yet, Davis depends on passes to set him up.

    The Pelicans seemingly acknowledged that by surrounding their biggest star with plus passers. Point guard Rajon Rondo‘s passing has devolved least among the skills that shone at his peak. Shooting guard Jrue Holiday is a former point guard. Cousins is an excellent passer for his size, though he’s out for the rest of the season due to injury (which has pushed Davis back to center even more often).

    For now, Davis seamlessly fits Pelicans coach Alvin Gentry’s ideal style. New Orleans ranks second in the NBA in assists per 100 possessions (behind only the Warriors).

    “We pass the basketball,” Gentry said. “We’re not an isolation basketball team. That doesn’t say that he can’t do that, but we would prefer to have flow and movement to our offense.”

    But Davis was also heavily assisted Gentry’s first two seasons with the Pelicans, when they were slightly below average in assists per 100 possessions, and when Monty Williams coached the team. This just appears to be who Davis is, regardless of offensive context.

    The concern: Davis can’t do more.
    https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/02/15...t-good-or-bad/


    It's why Davis is not quite on that top 5 level of a Durant/Lebron/Kawhi/Curry/Harden. Even as a PF/C he should be better than that. Also why it grinds my gears when people say Davis carried this franchise. Well good point guard play and the systems of Monty and Gentry certainly helped.

    Back on subject, Hayes has a very soft touch on his jumper already and seems more comfortable handling the ball in the few samples I've seen. Just needs time to work on it.
    Last edited by luckyman; 07-10-2019 at 09:33 PM.

  11. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    It's why Davis is not quite on that top 5 level of a Durant/Lebron/Kawhi/Curry/Harden. Even as a PF/C he should be better than that. Also why it grinds my gears when people say Davis carried this franchise. Well good point guard play and the systems of Monty and Gentry certainly helped.

    Back on subject, Hayes has a very soft touch on his jumper already and seems more comfortable handling the ball in the few samples I've seen. Just needs time to work on it.
    I don't care personally that AD gets a lot of assists. Over the last three years, only 65% of his shots have been assisted. By comparison, Shaq from the age of 28 to 31 (2000-01 to 2003-4) had 64% of his shots assisted. Somehow his reliance on feeds didn't stop Shaq being one of the best in the league. When you consider that Shaq pretty much never had the range that AD does, and that AD's improved vastly as a passer himself (his 19% assist percentage this season ties Shaq's career high assist percentage), I feel confident that he's a top 5 player.

    It's easy to say ''oh well, AD gets his shots assisted so he's not top 5''. Sure, and Harden (though he's improved recently) is still a low rung defender while AD should already have a DPOY under his belt. Every player has their flaws.

  12. #937


    Zo and Hart talking about seeing Zion play in Game 1 of the Summer League.

    Hart: ''I don't think I've ever see anyone [Knox] get big boy'd like that in my life. He's a freak.''

  13. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Rookie AD didn't shoot better than 38% anywhere outside of the paint. Out of the 94 players to attempt at least 250 midrange shots in 2012-13, AD was 92nd in accuracy. Shot 33% overall in the midrange.
    rookie AD and college AD are different things. college AD had jumphooks and the occasional 12 footer. comparing him with Hayes in that respect is apples and oranges. They had similar length and weight out of college before Davis' growth spurt and Davis was a a better rebounder in large part to his ability to consistently catch the ball with one hand.

    yall can say that Hayes is better than Davis at this or that, but I know if davis were still here and Hayes were with some other team you would laugh at the notion Hayes is better than Davis at 2 of the better parts of Davis' game. I know it.

    so a little perspective and putting bias aside would be nice. I think Hayes is a phenomenal lob and P&R talent and ahead of where Davis was coming in to the league at some things, but y'all need to chill. Davis was an all time great pick and roll bigman.

  14. #939
    I realize everyone is talking about the obvious guys that will be on the roster, but Adams and the kid from LSU played very well. Adams had his best game. One of the guys that was obviously not present was Bess. I don't recall seeing Bluiett either.
    Last edited by Lee2000; 07-10-2019 at 10:08 PM.

  15. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    rookie AD and college AD are different things. college AD had jumphooks and the occasional 12 footer. comparing him with Hayes in that respect is apples and oranges. They had similar length and weight out of college before Davis' growth spurt and Davis was a a better rebounder in large part to his ability to consistently catch the ball with one hand.

    yall can say that Hayes is better than Davis at this or that, but I know if davis were still here and Hayes were with some other team you would laugh at the notion Hayes is better than Davis at 2 of the better parts of Davis' game. I know it.

    so a little perspective and putting bias aside would be nice. I think Hayes is a phenomenal lob and P&R talent and ahead of where Davis was coming in to the league at some things, but y'all need to chill. Davis was an all time great pick and roll bigman.
    Not a single person has denied that AD was a better prospect coming out of college. Literally on this same page that you replied to this post on, I said, and I quote:

    ''AD was possibly the most gifted college big, at least defensively, since... god knows when.''

    That fact doesn't mean that Davis walked out of college perfect. He didn't. The weird attempt to rewrite history to claim that he was hitting threes and spacing the floor regularly is just that: rewriting history. We don't have his exact midrange stats in college because they just aren't out there, at least not publicly, but we know he shot 15% from 3 in college. That's abysmal. Did AD have some good hooks, and fantastic touch around the basket? Yes, he did, there is no dispute about that. Did he have a great midrange game? Well, since those college stats aren't available, the best and most detailed statistics we have are from his rookie year, and from those stats we find that no, he didn't have a great midrange game at 18, 19 years old.

    Is Hayes better than AD at some things? Sure he is. Nobody is saying that means he's better than AD, or that he's a better overall prospect, at least no one that I can see. Andre Drummond is a better rebounder than AD is even today, and there's no arguing that, but just saying that doesn't imply that you think Drummond is a better overall player: he's not. It's perfectly possible for Hayes to have better hands than AD (which he does, at least partly just because his hands are bigger) and still be a worse prospect overall.

    I get the temptation to dismiss any and all criticism of AD as sour grapes, and sure, I think some of it is. But it's perfectly possible to go too far the other way and start pretending AD was things that he never was. And that's just as silly.

  16. #941
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    It's been said before. But the thing that gets me most about NAW is how advanced the things he does on the court are. Like there was a move he did that I've never seen before, I don't think.

    He fakes a dribble drive at a deliberate speed. I think I've seen Jrue Holiday do something similar, but he did it in such a way that felt very practiced and in that way, it was sort of telegraphed. Something about how he timed his jab step and step back that made him pulling up for the shot unexpected. Like he was thinking about driving, then stopped...and now he's shooting it.

    And if he were playing with more aware teammates, he would have like 10 assists today. I remember e moment when Didi gets a pass on the baseline and has an open reverse layup but he kicks it out. And a few times when players were streaking and probably could've gone up for a shot, but passed it again.

    It's so hard to stay tempered and try and remember that it's only summer league..

    But the things NAW are doing are not rookie things. It's almost like NAW is an NBA 2K My Career where he's much, much better than he has any right to be and his potential is limitless.

  17. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    It's been said before. But the thing that gets me most about NAW is how advanced the things he does on the court are. Like there was a move he did that I've never seen before, I don't think.

    He fakes a dribble drive at a deliberate speed. I think I've seen Jrue Holiday do something similar, but he did it in such a way that felt very practiced and in that way, it was sort of telegraphed. Something about how he timed his jab step and step back that made him pulling up for the shot unexpected. Like he was thinking about driving, then stopped...and now he's shooting it.

    And if he were playing with more aware teammates, he would have like 10 assists today. I remember e moment when Didi gets a pass on the baseline and has an open reverse layup but he kicks it out. And a few times when players were streaking and probably could've gone up for a shot, but passed it again.

    It's so hard to stay tempered and try and remember that it's only summer league..

    But the things NAW are doing are not rookie things. It's almost like NAW is an NBA 2K My Career where he's much, much better than he has any right to be and his potential is limitless.
    It's true that if he were playing with more aware teammates (or got more minutes with Hayes, for some reason Hayes spent about 7 minutes on the court with no competent lead guard) he may have had like 10 assists. It's also true that if he were playing against better defenders, he may have had close to 10 turnovers as well. As it is, he had 4 or 5, and at least one of them was extremely avoidable: he just read the floor completely wrongly.

    NAW has been extremely good so far in his Summer League showing, but it's important to put the whole SL thing into perspective. He's looked great, and like a legitimate NBA player, which most guys in Summer League aren't. But that's part of why he's looked so next-level: most of his opponents are definitively not legitimate NBA talent.

  18. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Not a single person has denied that AD was a better prospect coming out of college. Literally on this same page that you replied to this post on, I said, and I quote:

    ''AD was possibly the most gifted college big, at least defensively, since... god knows when.''

    That fact doesn't mean that Davis walked out of college perfect. He didn't. The weird attempt to rewrite history to claim that he was hitting threes and spacing the floor regularly is just that: rewriting history. We don't have his exact midrange stats in college because they just aren't out there, at least not publicly, but we know he shot 15% from 3 in college. That's abysmal. Did AD have some good hooks, and fantastic touch around the basket? Yes, he did, there is no dispute about that. Did he have a great midrange game? Well, since those college stats aren't available, the best and most detailed statistics we have are from his rookie year, and from those stats we find that no, he didn't have a great midrange game at 18, 19 years old.

    Is Hayes better than AD at some things? Sure he is. Nobody is saying that means he's better than AD, or that he's a better overall prospect, at least no one that I can see. Andre Drummond is a better rebounder than AD is even today, and there's no arguing that, but just saying that doesn't imply that you think Drummond is a better overall player: he's not. It's perfectly possible for Hayes to have better hands than AD (which he does, at least partly just because his hands are bigger) and still be a worse prospect overall.

    I get the temptation to dismiss any and all criticism of AD as sour grapes, and sure, I think some of it is. But it's perfectly possible to go too far the other way and start pretending AD was things that he never was. And that's just as silly.
    I never once said he was shooting 3s. His range was 12 ft, touch I usually about around the rim. One of Davis top 3 strengths at 19 along with his length and agility. He had great touch on his jumper too though, and worked on increasing the range and consistency in the off season before his rookie year. It wasn't great but it looked like a good stroke. The 3 over KAT in the olympics was a much better looking shot than Jax's 3 today. I actually think they might be equal as shooters right now, but Davis had better form. I wouldnt rule out Jax becoming a better shooter but the issues brought up were touch and hands. Again your proof that Jax has better hands than Davis despite being a weaker rebounder because (his hands are bigger) is laughable. Nobody is going to say Kawhi can catch better than MT because he has bigger hands. Davis has better hands as of now, it is what it is. Both are in the 99 percentile so it's whatever anyways.

    Jax is a better screen setter than Davis ever was, and a better roller at 19, and he's a bit bouncier too so he has that going for him.

    But we need to give a HOF the benefit of the doubt at being the best at his best skills.
    Last edited by Pelifan; 07-10-2019 at 10:24 PM.

  19. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    It's been said before. But the thing that gets me most about NAW is how advanced the things he does on the court are. Like there was a move he did that I've never seen before, I don't think.

    He fakes a dribble drive at a deliberate speed. I think I've seen Jrue Holiday do something similar, but he did it in such a way that felt very practiced and in that way, it was sort of telegraphed. Something about how he timed his jab step and step back that made him pulling up for the shot unexpected. Like he was thinking about driving, then stopped...and now he's shooting it.

    And if he were playing with more aware teammates, he would have like 10 assists today. I remember e moment when Didi gets a pass on the baseline and has an open reverse layup but he kicks it out. And a few times when players were streaking and probably could've gone up for a shot, but passed it again.

    It's so hard to stay tempered and try and remember that it's only summer league..

    But the things NAW are doing are not rookie things. It's almost like NAW is an NBA 2K My Career where he's much, much better than he has any right to be and his potential is limitless.
    It's really hard to believe he was struggling adjusting to the point guard position at Vatech at one point. I think the NBA spacing and pacing is helping, but it's also amazing how much he's improved in such a short amount of time.

  20. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    I never once said he was shooting 3s. His range was 12 ft, touch I usually about around the rim. One of Davis top 3 strengths at 19 along with his length and agility. He had great touch on his jumper too though, and worked on increasing the range and consistency in the off season before his rookie year. It wasn't great but it looked like a good stroke. The 3 over KAT in the olympics was a much better looking shot than Jax's 3 today. I actually think they might be equal as shooters right now, but Davis had better form. I wouldnt rule out Jax becoming a better shooter but the issues brought up were touch and hands. Again your proof that Jax has better hands than Davis despite being a weaker rebounder because (his hands are bigger) is laughable. Nobody is going to say Kawhi can catch better than MT because he has bigger hands. Davis has better hands as of now, it is what it is.

    Jax is a better screen setter than Davis ever was, and a better roller at 19, and he's a bit bouncier too so he has that going for him.
    I wasn't referring to you when I said the thing about threes, someone else was pushing the idea that AD was shooting ''a couple'' of threes in college. That may be true, but he was missing them.

    The fact that you are, so dishonestly, portraying my view of Jax has having better hands as being just because his hands are bigger, when in fact I pointed that out as only a partial reason, pretty much sums up this whole issue. Jax's hands are bigger, and yes, that is an advantage. His experience and training in American football also comes through in this regard. Obviously there's always going to be arguments about this because there is no objective measurement of ''hands''. But when David Griffin, who has been in the NBA for over 20 years, says that Jax has pretty much the best hands of anyone he's ever seen, including Amar'e Stoudemire, I happen to agree.

    The idea that AD's form coming into the league was better than Jax's is also absurd. AD's form was good, but had to be largely reworked according to both AD himself and the Pels coaching staff because in his rookie year he was shooting it from his chest, his release point was way too low, and he was shooting it from in front of his face so he couldn't see the rim. None of that is speculation, that's literally what AD and the coaching staff said about it at the time. Jax's form is much smoother, is much more compact, and doesn't have the same kind of positional blindness that early AD did.

  21. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    It's really hard to believe he was struggling adjusting to the point guard position at Vatech at one point. I think the NBA spacing and pacing is helping, but it's also amazing how much he's improved in such a short amount of time.
    He did a lot of these same things at VT last year. Same kinds of passes. Same saavy penetrating the lane. They did go deep into the tournament while he ran point.

    Playing with better players also helps.

  22. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I wasn't referring to you when I said the thing about threes, someone else was pushing the idea that AD was shooting ''a couple'' of threes in college. That may be true, but he was missing them.

    The fact that you are, so dishonestly, portraying my view of Jax has having better hands as being just because his hands are bigger, when in fact I pointed that out as only a partial reason, pretty much sums up this whole issue. Jax's hands are bigger, and yes, that is an advantage. His experience and training in American football also comes through in this regard. Obviously there's always going to be arguments about this because there is no objective measurement of ''hands''. But when David Griffin, who has been in the NBA for over 20 years, says that Jax has pretty much the best hands of anyone he's ever seen, including Amar'e Stoudemire, I happen to agree.

    The idea that AD's form coming into the league was better than Jax's is also absurd. AD's form was good, but had to be largely reworked according to both AD himself and the Pels coaching staff because in his rookie year he was shooting it from his chest, his release point was way too low, and he was shooting it from in front of his face so he couldn't see the rim. None of that is speculation, that's literally what AD and the coaching staff said about it at the time. Jax's form is much smoother, is much more compact, and doesn't have the same kind of positional blindness that early AD did.
    When your scouting department goes back and look at your prospect in different sports. We did good.

  23. #948
    Hall of Famer WildlifeAirGrp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    It's so hard to stay tempered and try and remember that it's only summer league..
    This...but who cares, I'll take a Summer League Championship.
    Thanks Pelicans Report - I get a laugh or three every day reading this thing. Hoping the magic returns to the SKC soon.
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  24. #949
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    When your scouting department goes back and look at your prospect in different sports. We did good.
    Agreed. If someone has multi-sport experience, it makes sense to look at that film as well.

    Now, I don't watch the NFL, so I don't know exactly how impressive this is or isn't, but when David Griffin said that he's seen Hayes make catches that make Odell Beckham Jr look like ''a chump'', that sounds impressive to me.

  25. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I wasn't referring to you when I said the thing about threes, someone else was pushing the idea that AD was shooting ''a couple'' of threes in college. That may be true, but he was missing them.

    The fact that you are, so dishonestly, portraying my view of Jax has having better hands as being just because his hands are bigger, when in fact I pointed that out as only a partial reason, pretty much sums up this whole issue. Jax's hands are bigger, and yes, that is an advantage. His experience and training in American football also comes through in this regard. Obviously there's always going to be arguments about this because there is no objective measurement of ''hands''. But when David Griffin, who has been in the NBA for over 20 years, says that Jax has pretty much the best hands of anyone he's ever seen, including Amar'e Stoudemire, I happen to agree.

    The idea that AD's form coming into the league was better than Jax's is also absurd. AD's form was good, but had to be largely reworked according to both AD himself and the Pels coaching staff because in his rookie year he was shooting it from his chest, his release point was way too low, and he was shooting it from in front of his face so he couldn't see the rim. None of that is speculation, that's literally what AD and the coaching staff said about it at the time. Jax's form is much smoother, is much more compact, and doesn't have the same kind of positional blindness that early AD did.
    GMs are going to exaggerate about players they draft, Jax has great hands, on catching lobs with two hands, I've never swen him drop something he got 2 hands on, but he's not great with one. I've seen it, it's what made me so happy to see him pull down the one handed rebound in summer league, it was something he was completely unable to do at Texas. maybe its contact related idk. But David could catch one handed rebounds in traffic

    Neither Jax or Davis had great form, but Davis' form was better, Jax doesn't put correct spin on the ball and his mechanics arent too consistent. That's a bigger sin to me than not having a great gather and release point. Jax shows promise but so did David, neither is great neither is terrible. Touch around the rim was the topic and there I think Davis showed on his hooks and falling out of bounds shots that he's miles better than Jax.

    Davis wasn't a bad prospect offensively, he was considered to have a Camby floor with KG and Duncan upside. He was scoring more in his 2nd year than I think Hayes ever will. That's not a knock on Hayes. He's a great player and I could see him being an 18ppg center who is top 10 defensively down the line and has really high offensive impact and gravity, but there's a lot to work on besides strength and shooting to get there.
    Last edited by Pelifan; 07-10-2019 at 10:45 PM.

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