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No one is arguing that Jackson shouldn't add to his game. I made that VERY clear in my post that the offseason and summer league are the perfect opportunity to do just that.Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
My point was trying to judge Jackson's value to the team based on a short term need is silly. If Jackson became Lou Williams, that would be awesome and someone every team in the league would love to have on the team.
I'm not going to argue that point because I've already said elsewhere that there are plenty of teams who need pure scorers and that I'm not condemning Frank's entire NBA future based on his limited skillset. I agree that there are plenty of teams who need that, and that's a void Frank could fill. I don't think it's even close to a priority for our team and that's my entire point. My entire point is that if Frank Jackson, who is currently a New Orleans Pelican, wants to get regular rotation minutes on the New Orleans Pelicans in the regular season, he's going to need more.
If he wants to go nuts off the bench in Washington then I'm sure they'd love to have him.
Basketball.
This is where we disagree. You look at the short term and don't see a Lou Williams type player as being a need for this team. I look at a bench spark plug guard as a very big need long term.
You give minutes to the players you want to develop, it's not just based off of what's best in the short.
I think we have just a straight up different outlook. Your perspective seems to be ''scorers are useful in general, and we don't know what we'll need, so just feed Frank minutes and he can be a scorer and maybe one day we'll need that.''
Mine is ''we don't know exactly what we'll need, so the best course of action is pushing for as many guys with diverse skillsets as possible rather than investing heavy time in one-dimensional players''.
First, You keep ignoring the fact that I've never once disagreed with trying to get Jackson to diversify his skillset. And my stance isn't "maybe one day we'll need that". My stance is we 100% WILL need a guard scorer for this team long term. Moore is in the last year of his deal. Hart may or may not be better than Jackson long term, NAW may or may not be better than Jackson long term, Jrue isn't a pure scorer who typically just takes over games. Someone out of our young core of guards will need to step up and be that pure spark plug scorer for this team. Moore buys us some time to develop that role but it's not any less of a need than a backup PG is long term. Maybe even more of need depending how players develop.
Your point of getting guys with diverse skillsets is jaded however. Typically players aren't elite at multiple things and only the absolute top tier are elite at more than just a couple. Usually diversity of skillset comes with it, average play across multiple skills. There's plenty of space for both a player that is elite in one or a couple of areas and a player that isn't elite at anything but gives you average play across the board. Teams need both, the Pelicans need both long term.
Heck with Lonzo as what appears to be the PG of the future for us, I'd argue more than a SG with PG skills we need a pure scorer paired next to him long term.
So what's your problem? I've said that it's cool, thumbs up, rounds of applause for Frank that he can put up points. Great. Good for him, hope he has fun doing it.
If he wants solid rotation minutes on OUR TEAM, not some fictional team, but our team with our personnel next season, then just scoring won't be enough. We have multiple players who can get buckets for themselves with relatively little difficulty, in the form of Zion and Jrue and Ingram, and we have plenty of other guys who can score with minimal setup too, like Redick and Favors and Moore and Miller.
If all you can do is score then that's great. But if you want minutes on our team, THIS SEASON, not on some other team, and not on our team in 4 years, then you'll need to be able to do more stuff. If you agree that he needs to diversify his skillset, then what's the issue?
And it's not like I'm asking for him to turn into Steve Nash or something. I'm asking him to be 70% the passer that Monte Morris is. If that's too much then we shouldn't even bother, just let him average 30 in summer league and then bench ride.
Again, as I've reiterated now more than once, it's not just about what's best in the short term. Teams play and develop guys for the LONG TERM. Is there a better short term option than any of our group of young guards already on the team? YES! Moore/JJ. Does that mean they aren't going to try and develop someone for long term success because of a slightly better current fit? NO! If the team believes in Jackson as a long term fit here he will get the minutes he needs to develop even if he isn't a perfect fit short term.
It's CLEAR that a scoring guard was a big need for this team, thats the entire reason they went out and got JJ Reddick. A guy who has a career average 2 assists a game. This will will STILL be there once JJ is gone, assuming he doesn't decline faster than we think. A scoring guard is a very big need for us long term.
I don't know how to say it more clearly than this to you. This shouldn't even be a discussion. This is what teams do all the time.
Last edited by Mythrol; 07-06-2019 at 10:08 AM.
Absolutely not worth the argument. Like banging my head up a brick wall.
This is how I feel. You play players to develop for the future not just what's the best possible fit currently. This is an insane hill for you to die on.
Well... spending the last 15 minutes reading and thinking about this conversation. I’d have to agree with mythrol. For the simple fact that scorers are highly coveted in today’s game. If Jackson is able to do what he did last night on a consistent basis. He has a spot on this team. He can be part of the rotation and does not have to play the point. He can come in and just be a spot up shooter or he can drive the net. While Ingram, Zo, or Jrue play the point.
Let’s not forget.... injuries happen! Having someone on the bench like Jackson is valuable.
You play players in the summer league when they are either rookies or when they desperately need more time to develop because their skillset is too limited to contribute to a legitimate NBA team right now.
The idea that we shouldn't even expect Frank to display basic pick and roll ballhandling abilities, y'know, like 17 year olds are currently doing in FIBA play, as he enters his third year in the league is an absolutely galaxy brain take, imo.
The moratorium ends in about 30 minutes (12 noon EST). Expect deals to start going official shortly thereafter.
— Keith Smith (@KeithSmithNBA) July 6, 2019
I've been told that trades that will make players eligible to play in Summer League today will be prioritized as much as possible, as teams sequence signings/trades.
JAXSON HAYES, ENN AYY DOUBLE-YOO
JAXSON HAYES, ENN AYY DOUBLE-YOO
JAXSON HAYES, ENN AYY DOUBLE-YOO
JAXSON HAYES, ENN AYY DOUBLE-YOO
JAXSON HAYES, ENN AYY DOUBLE-YOO
I can’t wait to see the squad!!
The gambler in me want to put a sizable wager on tonight’s game!
Dude. You keep making the argument about something I'm not arguing. No one is saying Jackson shouldn't work on his play making abilities. NO ONE! I'VE SAID IT MULTIPLE TIMES HE SHOULD.
You asked a simple question. You wanted to know how Jackson would get minutes on this team if all he is, is a scorer. THAT IS WHAT I'M DISCUSSING WITH YOU. The fact is that this team still needs a long term answer for a scoring guard. Jackson, if they believe he is an option for that role, will STILL get minutes because they still nerd that role developed too.
Also let's clear a couple of other things up too, Josh Hart when you normalize their minutes averaged a slightly lower ast% and slightly lower assists per game than Frank Jackson. Both going into their 3rd year (though Jackson didn't play his 1st season at all). So it's not like the other guy who is really fighting for the long term spot of bench scorer is ahead of Jackson at playmaking skills anyway. BOTH need work there.
And as far as your summer league opinion goes, Why is Kenny Hustle playing then? Why did New York play Knox and Robinson? Didn't Lonzo and Ingram also play 2 years in summer league? I thought so but I can't remember for sure. It's not just about rookies or limited skillset guys, it's young guys who need all the minutes possible to develop.
Like I said, not having the argument. It's pretty clear you're frustrated with me and you think I'm missing your point, and I'm getting annoyed at you and I feel like you're missing my point, so who cares. It's not a big deal.
Kenny Hustle was an UDFA who was a rookie last season and got rocky, inconsistent minutes all year.
I don't know whether Lonzo or Ingram played multiple Summer League years. Lonzo didn't play a bunch of games in his rookie year and Ingram was pretty poor in his rookie year too, so it wouldn't surprise me.
New York is playing Knox, Robinson, and Trier, because they're a trash heap garbage tier franchise that has to throw all their effort into winning Summer League tournaments because they'll win 26 games in the regular season and need a consolation prize.
How many seasons did it take Siakam to finally put it all together? 3 years? This is Frank’s 2nd year. He will be fine on this roster. Plenty of guys have made careers out of being scorers who had marginal defensive skills (and seeing how he played last night, Frank’s defensive skills are slightly higher than marginal).
I think Frank is like the 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench (because he can run, and because he knows the Gentry system) and he grows into a Monte Ellis, Pargo, Lou Williams role here, and that is good enough for him.
If you Jimmer it, they will come.
I think the same grace you're extending to Kenny Hustle should also be extended to Jackson. He was injured and didn't play basketball for his entire 1st season "in the NBA". Then he goes to knock some rust off in his first couple of games back and rolls his ankle last summer then gets the same rocky, inconsistent minutes that Hustle got last year.
If anything Hustle was in a much better situation than Jackson because he played 4 years of college ball and didn't miss an entire year due to injury.
That might be fair, although I'd argue that Kenny Hustle has shown me a lot more than Jackson has at this point in their respective careers, in terms of intangibles, IQ, feel, etc. Some of that is subjective though.
Hayes and NAW tho?
Looking forward to watching those two tonight.
He probably has shown more, he also had 3 extra years of college ball and no year long injury to take him out of basketball right as he joined the NBA either. People seem to forget just how young Jackson is. He's actually younger than Lonzo. Hustle is almost 4 years older than Jackson.
what is status of last nights' game?
I really like what Frank showed. Three level scorers have value in this league and he flashed aggressive, off-the-dribble three point shooting, got to the rim and finished, and even had a nice floater. I think the aggressiveness and quick release were what I liked best. He did not hesitate or pass up open shots like I have seen him do at times early last season. The shot mechanics looked compact and replicable.
He definitely does not have point guard or playmaking skills. I think the goal for him should be to make the simple read out of pick and roll or be able to kick out on drives when he draws the help, but he will never be a high level passer. He both lacks vision and struggles with accuracy while moving.
If the shot is real, he’s a better-shooting, more athletic version of Austin Rivers, who is a rotation player on a playoff team.
Frank Jackson will never be an NBA starter, but can be a contributor if he develops CONSISTENCY in his offensive game. He doesn't have the skillset of a PG, nor the length (and defensive prowess) to guard SGs in this league. At 6'3", his body makeup alone (never mind his lack of defensive ability) will have opposing shooting guards salivating for the opportunity to post him up on the blocks. By no means am I saying that Jackson is not a serviceable NBA player, but coaches will have to pick their spots to play him....ala the 'Microwave', Vinnie Johnson.
Last night’s Pelicans game was the highest �� rated summer league game ever
— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) July 6, 2019
New Orleans was the top market ��#SummerPelicans https://t.co/spdG4Yrt2o
''Nobody in New Orleans cares about the Pelicans tho!''
It looks liked they just made last night’s summer league game final. Does anyone know the status of tonight’s Pels game?
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