Giving a max contract to Vucevic, at the max number of years we can offer, would be a horrible mistake.Originally Posted by HartOfaPelican
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Giving a max contract to Vucevic, at the max number of years we can offer, would be a horrible mistake.
Basketball.
I think that maxing Vucevic is a bad idea at this point. Brook Lopez started 81 games for the Bucks last year averaging over 28 minutes a game. I would gladly give him $18-$20 a year for 2-3 years if that is what it took to lure him away from Milwaukee.
I still think that, best case scenario, we manage to convince Al Horford to come down for like, 2yrs $40m. That won't happen, someone will offer him twice that money over a longer time, but it would still be just almost too perfect in terms of fit and mentality.
Pleas elaborate how a prime age guy. Who averages 21 pts, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, and does not have injury issues is a bad idea?!? Oh and he can stretch the floor with 3pt shooting!
It’s literally exactly what we need and if we gave him 5 years he would only be 33.
If I’m gonna spend max type money on a center, give me Boogie Cousins. He has 3 point range and can bang in the paint with the best of them. I don’t think I would want him though. The only guy I would possibly give a max contract to would be DLo, but with Lonzo Ball we don’t need him. Signing a max guy would be a good move to take advantage of having Zion on a rookie deal that will run out when the max players deal will run out. I just don’t see a guy I would want to sign. It would have to be a center or point guard. They only have two centers worth that in Vucevic & Cousins. Horford & Gasol are close, but I wouldn’t want to sign either of them to the max. Then Kyrie, Kemba, and DLo are the only point guards worth the max, but two of those guys are not coming here, really maybe all 3.
So I would just go for the next tier of players at each spot. I would target Niko, Marcus Morris, or Bobby Portis. Unless they rather a stretch 5 with Hayes playing backup 4 his first year due to his size. Then you got Brook Lopez, Jonas Valanciunas, or Dewayne Dedmon that could be had for possibly a decent contract. Then hopefully get either Elfrid Payton, Terry Rozier, or maybe Emmanuel Mudiay or Quinn Cook cause of his shooting. Unless we want to bring in a vet like Rajon Rondo, Darren Collison, Patrick Beverley, or maybe Jeremy Lin. I doubt Rondo or Beverley would want to come here. The thing is though we have Jrue on the roster who can start at point guard if needed and a young guy with potential in Frank Jackson. If Ball were to get injured I would rather Jrue run the point with Moore starting unless NAW looks like the real deal right away. Plus NAW can run the point if needed as well.
Last edited by DaPelFromHell; 06-23-2019 at 12:56 AM.
You don't give max contracts to sub-par players, with multiple years stretching into the future, unless you know they are the right fit to take you to the next level. Vucevic is not that player.
First of all, he's not going to be 28 when next season starts. He turns 29 within weeks of game 1. So after a 5 year deal, he'd be basically 34, not just turning 33.
Secondly, is he really a max level player? He's been in the league for 8 years, this is the first time he's ever had a truly impressive statistical season. You don't give max contracts to guys who have had one legitimately good year. You say he spaces the floor, and while it's true that he had a decent three point shooting year, he was actually only a 36.4% shooter from deep and that is, by far, the best he's shot in the last 7 years. He shot higher his rookie season (37.5%) but he only took 0.2 threes a game that year, so it's not actually a real sample size.
All of that is compounded by his other stats. This is by far his career high in WS/48, at .193. Is that good? Sure. Is it ''max player for 5 years after he's only done it once in a decade'' good? No, it's not. And this was, remember, as the first option on his team, with a 28% usage rating. He will not be the top option on our team, or at least he won't be if we're being smart. He'd be third, or possibly fourth depending on how Ingram plays by the end of the season. You do not pay MAX money over 5 years to a guy who is your third or fourth best player.
This is also a guy who cannot manufacture his own shot from three (100% of his threes were assisted this year), and who is defensively not very good. He was a decent rim protector, purely due to size and positioning, but he cannot defend out on the perimeter at all. That's why opponents shot 3.7% better than their averages from 3 and 4.4% better than their averages from beyond 15 feet when guarded by Vucevic. This got even worse in the playoffs where his opponents shot 9.3% better from three, and 7.3% better from beyond 15 feet. Not switchable at all: in fact, this is demonstrated by looking at his specific matchups.
He defends fairly well when guarding paint-bound bigs like Steven Adams and Clint Capela, holding them in negative player point differentials, but when he guards anyone with any kind of stretching ability (even minor stretching like Valanciunas' midrange) their point differentials soar upwards, to the point where even guys like Aaron Baynes and and Bobby Portis were roasting him.
I don't want to be paying a guy with such limited defensive and perimeter mobility upwards of $28 million dollars when he's 32, 33 years old. I just don't. If he were a deadly sniper, or a guy who had sustained this level of play for several years, maybe I'd be more easily convinced, but he's a league average shooter from three for the first time this year, and this year overall was a massive outlier for him. Maybe that's a sign of good things to come from him, but I'm not jeopardising our future by throwing out not just a big contract but a five year MAX at a guy who just had his first really productive year in a decade, and still wasn't that great doing it.
I wouldn’t pay him either. Who drafts a player at a position in the top 10, then goes out, and spends the max on a player that plays the same position? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I know its gonna take some time for Jaxson Hayes, but that wouldn’t be the greatest shot of confidence to the young man by us IMO.
He should be thinking he has a chance to be the starter in camp. If we sign a max center than he knows doesn’t have a shot at starting cause you don’t pay a guy max money to come off the bench. Now if you sign a center on a decent deal for a year or 2 he will still think he has a chance to beat him out.
The guy would have to be a vet that comes with some serious respect that can also play power forward like Al Horford. Cause then you can talk to Hayes and be like you are our future center and we see Horford as our starting center & backup 4. So you will be are first big man off the bench to play with both Zion & Horford.
Last edited by DaPelFromHell; 06-23-2019 at 01:39 AM.
That relationship between whichever big we sign and Hayes is partially why I'm so high on Al Horford. I feel like Horford would be a fantastic guy for Hayes to learn from. Just like Hayes, Horford has (or at least, had, when he was a little younger) the foot speed and IQ to guard smaller guys on the perimeter, to switch essentially 1 through 5, and to make clever reads. He's never been a great rebounder mostly due to his size, but he's always had solid fundamentals. He sets screens fairly well, he passes well, he can play on the perimeter with ease on both ends of the court, and he's smart.
Giving him Hayes as a student for a year or two could really supercharge Hayes' potential. Get him learning from a smart, versatile veteran big who by all accounts is a good locker room presence and positive guy. Let him be the guy to install that defensive mindset, those switchable defensive concepts, and those fundamentals into Hayes.
I think we can get Dedmond for 10 million per season.
Lopez will probably command at least 18-20 million starting salary
Willie Cauley-Stein will command starting out 15-17 million
Gasol will command anywhere from $16-20 million starting salary
Emeka Okafor - Joe Smith - Carmelo Anthony - Manu Ginobili - Jason Williams
Al Jefferson - James Posey - Aaron McKie - Shaun Livingston
Horford it seems is turning down a 30m 1 year player option so I would assume he commands somewhere in that neighborhood so that has to be considered. Little pricey and would eat all our cap space.
I know, which is why I don't expect it to happen. I just think, theoretically at least, it would work very well.
A trade centered around Moore for Steven Adams would satisfy a lot of what folks seem to want to do, and Hart and NAW are already on board as replacements for Moore.
That would net out at using $15m of our cap space. And we can trade Adams as an expiring in 18 months when Hayes is ready for those minutes.
We could have an offseason where we sign center Dewayne Dedmond for 2 years - $20 million total, small forward Rudy Gay at 1 year - 10-11 million, and point guard Darren Collison at 1 year - 11-12 million.
All three guys shot over 38% from threes last season where Gay and Collison shot over 40%. Let's assume we bring back Diallo while moving Moore.
Depth Chart:
C - Dedmond, Okafor, Hayes
PF - Zion, Diallo, Wood
SF - Gay, Ingram, Keinrich
SG - Jrue, Hart, NAW
PG - Collison, Ball, Jackson
Ingram and Ball are going to be our starting PG/SF unless they’re traded.
I can’t see Rudy Gay or Collison signing as a backup on a team not chasing a championship
Last edited by NMThreeMVP; 06-23-2019 at 08:02 AM.
When I heard that OKC was putting three players on the trade block, my thoughts immediately went to Adams. I assumed that the price would be too high, but it seems that they are primarily looking for salary relief, so he might not be too expensive. If they took Moore in the deal, it probably works for the Pelicans, but if they want someone with a salary of less than $2 million, I don't think it does. I believe the net for this year with Moore in the deal would be closer to $17 million, Adams would be under contract at nearly $28 million next year, then would be gone the following year ($41 million cap hold). Another problem trading for Adams is that he has a trade kicker of nearly $2 million, so the net is close to $20 million for this year's cap, if I am figuring correctly.
I think Adams makes a lot of sense in the abstract, but I don't know that it works given that a trade for him could prevent other moves Griffin would want to make. I like the timeline though of having a legit starting center for the next two years.
Yeah I could see that but if we signed Collison and Gay to those salaries, they would start. Plus Ball could run the second unit with Ingram, Hart, and Hayes. Also we could trade Gay and Collison at the deadline if we’re not competing for a playoff spot.
But I’m fine with Ingram and Ball starting and signing veteran backups for them who can shoot. But Jrue and Zion would benefit from shooters around them. Imagine having shooters like Dedmond, Gay, and Collison next to Jrue and Zion.
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Right. I can't remember where I read it, but I am sure I saw something about Gay intending to resign with the Spurs for around $10 million. If the Pelicans wanted him, I would imagine it would take at least $13-14 million for a couple of years to entice him to leave San Antonio.
But couldn't this be THE move that Griffin wants to make? We'd still have cap space to sign backups at SF/PG, which I think would be the remaining holes on the team. I'd happily bring back Darius, sign DeMarre Carroll , and add whoever the BPA is at PG to compete with Frank Jackson for the backup role.
Sure, it could be. It makes sense to me to have someone like Adams in that role, which gives Hayes more time to develop. Hayes may end up being more power forward than center anyway, though that's unlikely. Having Adams would certainly allow Zion and Hayes more time to define who they are in the NBA.
I ended up adding that the max guy would have to be a player that comes with massive respect around the league and Horford would likely be the only guy in that top tier of centers. I like him cause he could backup Zion as well when Hayes comes into the game. Hayes could easily play with both Zion & Horford. The only problem is Horford is gonna want a max deal and may want to join a team with a better chance at the title.
Not only can Hayes learn from Horford, but also Zion. He would be a perfect fit for us, in that he’s a vet with a ton of playoff experience that won two titles in college. I know it was college, but he knows what it takes and how it feels to win. I would bet that Grif will at least give his camp a call to get a feel for what they want. I doubt we can get him here, but possibly so.
C: Horford, Hayes, Okafor
PF: Zion, Wood, Williams
SF: Ingram, Hart, Miller, Bertans
SG: Jrue, NAW, Moore
PG: Ball, Jackson,
Then I would just sign minimum guys at point guard & maybe bring back Darius Miller for the minimum as well. I think Jrue, Jackson, & NAW could probably get it done as our backup lead guards though. I would have Hayes as our first big off the bench and Okafor as our 4th. I think those 2 could play together as well.
Last edited by DaPelFromHell; 06-23-2019 at 09:50 AM.
I don't think that Hayes will end up getting many minutes, to be honest, at least not to start the season. So you shouldn't be signing players with him and rotations in mind. It's all about the locker-room presence, and that training partner who can show him the details and the fundamentals in a practical, one on one situation.
I also doubt that we could get him here. It's definitely worth the call, but I just feel (like you do) that he's probably going to end up going somewhere with a hope at a title, for very possibly more money than we would want to give.
I’m betting we are getting an all star in FA or via trade. Probably trading for an all star.
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We may not need a backup point guard with the plethora of guards we have on the roster.
Point guards: Lonzo Ball, Frank Jackson
Combo guards: Jrue Holiday, NAW
Shooting guards: Josh Hart, Etwaun Moore
We have 6 guards that should make the roster if we keep Moore. I think Hart & Moore will likely play as a 3rd guard when Ingram is not in the game. Jrue Holiday, Frank Jackson, & NAW can be our backup point guards when Ball is not in the game IMO.
So we really just need another big, so we could really go after a max type guy if we wanted. Al Horford may be the best fit out of Vucevic, Cousins, Gasol, Tobias, Porzingis, Millsap, or Randle. Those 8 are probably the best 8 bigs that will be on the market. I don’t want Vucevic. Tobias, Millsap, & Randle don’t fit with what we need IMO. No way Dallas doesn’t resign Porzingis after trading that haul to the Knicks. Cousins & Gasol might be good fits and would fit that “respect around the league” type veteran to not effect Hayes confidence like Vucevic would IMO.
Or we go after Niko, Marcus Morris, Brook Lopez, Jonas V, Dedmon, or Bobby Portis. I think Jonas & Portis may resign with the Griz & Wiz though. So that would leave Niko, Brook Lopez, Marcus Morris, & Dedmon as possible 2nd tier guys to sign. I would take any one of those 4.
Last edited by DaPelFromHell; 06-23-2019 at 11:17 AM.
If all of these players would agree to a 2-year contract in the salary range you mentioned, my preference would be...
1. Marc Gasol
2. Brook Lopez
3. Dewayne Dedman
Not interested in Cauley-Stein at all.
I wonder what we could get from Miami for taking Whiteside on?
Dragic, Whiteside, and a top 10 protected 2022 1st for E'Twaun Moore and Frank Jackson would work. Sign DeMarre Carroll.
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