Single worst AD trade I’ve seen. Why are the Pels giving up picks here?Originally Posted by pelicanchamp
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Single worst AD trade I’ve seen. Why are the Pels giving up picks here?
If you're desperate for a good guard, there isn't really one better than Garland or White, which is really depressing. Part of the reason Morant's stock is so high is that there are very, VERY, few good guards in this draft class.
If you're going to just draft for talent, and ignore position, then there's a few decent names.
Kevin Porter Jr, could be a decent shout. He's 6'5, probably the third best athlete in the draft class after Zion and Brandon Clarke, pretty good steal percentage which projects well as a defender. He definitely has the frame for it, with his 6'10 wingspan. At 41.2% from three, there's some promise in his three point shot. The scary part on that is that he's only a 55% FT shooter, which is very very risky. Poor FT abilities usually translate to poor 3pt shooting, so there's some contradiction in his game there.
If Brandon Clarke doesn't go at #5, he could be a good pick too. Has absolutely no shooting range, which is super scary. Negative wingspan is ugly too. He's very high IQ and he's a skilled defender, has great bounce, but I don't think he'd work too well for our team. Would make for great lobs though.
I'm a big fan of Grant Williams. He's a little older, at 21, but he's 6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan, is a fantastic passer for a big man. Always makes the right pocket pass, and he'd pair well with Zion since they both make great interior passing look easy. He's a very solid defender. Draws fouls very well, and is an excellent free throw shooter: not very good from deep though. Like, 31% bad.
Again, if we're chasing a big to pair with Zion, I wouldn't mind Jaxson Hayes too much. 7'0, 7'3 wingspan, moves like a wing. And that's a positive and a negative: the positive is that he's extremely fluid, will make a fantastic rim runner and rim protector. Pair him with Zion and nobody scores on us inside. He has good hip movement too which could translate to decent perimeter defense. The downside is this: as a big, he's extremely raw. Hasn't mastered that passing on the roll that's so valuable from bigs at an NBA level, and he's awkward as a shooter. He had a big growth spurt and it's clear he's using the mechanics of a smaller man when he tries to shoot, it looks unpleasant. Not a great rebounder either. Still, he's very young and because of his growth spurt he also hasn't had time to get bad habits so he could go well there.
It's a real bad draft for guards. You either luck out with Morant, or you take Garland, White, or Ponds, bite your tongue, and pray.
Basketball.
One thing some of you are not considering. Some young players with talent improve in their NBA careers.
I understand the concerns, there are many, about Ball and Ingram. Ingram’s numbers suffered when he played with Lebron. He had to make an awkward adjustment. If he improves, he’s 21 years old, he could be worth the risk. He will bring plenty of offense and if he can improve 3 point shooting and defense the PELS get a young SF that will be a star. He didn’t have a few great games by accident. He consistently showed improvement in his ability to score against elite defenders. The kid is 21. I bet some of you will be eating your words if we get him and he does well. There’s a ton of potential for him to be a very good player. There’s a risk but I think it’s worth it. So many people on here bashed Jrue for years. Then out of nowhere you jump on the bandwagon when he’s healthy and playing great ball. Get Ingram out of LA and I bet he’s in a much better environment with his Duke brothers Zion, Okafor, Frank Jackson. Plus you got a great humble leader in Jrue Holiday and a coaching staff that would probably be a better fit for him.
Gentry > Walton. In fact Gentry > Vogel and Kidd.
You can move Lonzo if you don’t want him. I’d consider this trade: Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and the 4th pick. Keep Ball and let us see how the team does. Draft Hunter or Culver. One or 2 of these players will work out. We can move Kuzma and/or Ball for a different player.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/3/...ghts-breakdown
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You're totally right and you have convinced me.
We should trade our top 5, 26 year old player for a couple of guys who COULD potentially be good IF they gain multiple new skills and completely re-work at least half of their game, IF they get healthy, IF they learn to play winning basketball, and a couple of mediocre picks in a bad draft.
How could I have been so blind?
Clinton Cappella is a VERY good player. He’d fit great with our team. He’s young and on a 5 year contract. He can play defense, rebound and score. He’s very athletic. He’s a star level big man and can have a big impact on the game. He’s on a good contract for 5 years.
PJ Tucker is a vet SF who plays elite defense and is a very good 3 point shooter. Can’t complain.
Aaron Holiday is likely to be a good pg very young Jrue’s brother and could be the icing on the cake if it works out....,
Remember, there would have to be some adjustments for Indy to take Gordon. We would get another player/players to make it work.
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Actually, I think you are blind and unrealistic. That’s ok. Boston isn’t going to give us what you think they will. No way. Sorry.
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The 4th pick in this draft, if the PELS scouting is excellent, could be a star player. It’s not far fetched at all. Getting Ball and moving him to PHX is very realistic. 4th and 6th picks plus Kuzma and Ingram might not excite you but there are so many possible moves we can make if we did this trade. Add Hart and 2 future 1st and there’s no way I’d turn that down.
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geezus Christ the trades keep getting worse and worse huh?
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Ingram isn’t far from being a potential future star. Put a little more weight on him and improve shooting. Those 2 things often occur for YOUNG players as they develop in this league. You think 2 years in the league is enough to determine a player’s limitations?
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Any pick in any draft COULD be a star player if the scouting is good enough. That doesn't change the fact that the odds of getting a good player decrease considerably as you work your way down the the numbers, and this draft is notoriously poor. Now, I personally quite like Culver at 4, so I'm not saying that getting #4 would guarantee a bad player. It wouldn't. I'm just saying if you can trade for #3 (which is obviously on the table from NY) then you take #3 over #4 every day of the week.
You have no idea how realistic getting Ball and moving him to Phoenix is. We've heard rumours that Phoenix loves him, and we've also heard rumours that neither Phoenix nor Chicago would move their picks for him. Which is true? Neither of us knows. Let's say we make your trade and then neither Phoenix nor Chicago want him. Then what? We move him to Minnesota for 11? Or to Brooklyn for #17?
Add Hart, who is AT BEST the 4th most valuable asset in an AD trade, to Kuzma (who is 23 years old, shoots 30% from three and plays no defense) and Ingram (who can't shoot either, can't shoot free throws, can't play defense, and isn't a very good passer) and sure, you can be as happy as you like, but I don't like it and I'd be stunned if David Griffin did.
How good are the future firsts going to be from LA which has Lebron and AD, and could possibly acquire someone like Jimmy Butler this summer? Bad, is the answer. They'll be like, in the #18-#23 range.
Tomorrow someone's going to come in and suggest trading AD and the #1 pick straight up to the Spurs for Jakob Poeltl, the corpse of Lamarcus Aldridge and #19
Y’all are gonna probably eat your words. Lol Teams can easily say: “AD is a one year rental and could bolt after the 2019/2020 season. Plus he’s injury prone. We live AD and he’s the best there is in this league right now but we can’t give up everything you expect us to give.”
Teams will have leverage. Y’all think we will get whatever we want just because AD is a superstar. It’s just not the case. In fact, another point they’ll use against us is “he’s going to walk and this is our best offer.”
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you're joking but I can see it happening lol
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you're right bc the few teams that do want him Def won't put together their best packages to beat the other teams I mean that's just unheard of
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If teams say to us ''AD is a one year rental and could bolt, and he's also injury prone.''
We say ''AD hasn't had a serious injury in legitimately years. Kawhi Leonard just came back from missing a YEAR due to injury and has taken Toronto to the finals. That's why you trade for a superstar. You don't want a finals trip? Fine, someone else will.''
Imagine thinking that you should accept half a tube of pringles and some cold coffee in exchange for AD just because someone might throw a hissy fit and not offer it to you tomorrow. Get your standards up. Get some self respect here. We hold the leverage: we have the hot commodity, we have him under contract, we get to choose who takes him, and there are MULTIPLE teams interested (at least 3, potentially as many as half the league if we're going to believe Kyler (I know, spurious)).
If you're selling your car and someone comes up and says ''here, I've got $20. You might as well take it, maybe you won't get any other offers at all.'' Then you don't take the $20, you tell them to hit the road.
We are starting to hit some rediculous levels here...
The desperation has apparently set in, for some.
You have no idea what the 4th pick might actually do for the PELS. Seriously. It’s a coveted pick. RJ could be way better than Culver but I wouldn’t be surprised if Culver was the best player in this draft. Definitely has proven himself to be worth taken at 4. Also, building a team with through the draft is a very smart thing to do especially if you have good scouting and a little bit of luck.
You mention the 18-23 range for future firsts. You actually think that’s not so valuable? Again, your arguments are not as strong as you think. You have little confidence in the PELS staff to evaluate talent and develop players.
Look at teams that have done well. They DRAFT well. GSW drafted Curry, Thompson and Draymond.
Denver drafted Murray and Jokic...
OKC drafted Harden, Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka etc
Getting young players that clearly have talent, Ingram and Ball, plus draft picks is not irrational.
You must hate the LAKERS. Btw, PHX would certainly consider trading the 6th pick for Lonzo. Lonzo is elite in transition offense, his defense is way above average compared to other guards with 2 years in league. His athleticism and his passing skills are undeniable. He’s able to hit 3s. Also, he’s got very high bbiq. How often does he go to the FT line? I don’t like his stat 42% at FT line but he was 60 something percent in college. Stay healthy and he’s a damn good pg.
I think you are overconfident. Maybe you think we will get the 14th pick, Tatum, Brown, and Smart plus the 20th and 22nd picks. If that’s on the table then obviously it’s a much better deal.
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I'd be pretty damned surprised if Culver was the best player in this draft. Shocked, to be honest. It would knock my socks off.
I agree that building through the draft is a good thing. That's the method I've been proposing since February. That's why to me, getting the best prospective draft picks matters: because it doesn't matter how much you yell about scouting, the fact remains that having a higher pick is always better. There's a reason that the #1 pick spot has produced more MVPs and champions than any other draft position, and it's because when you're picking #1, you get first choice. The second best pick after #1 is obviously #2. Therefore, YES, I think it matters if we get pick the #12 in a few years rather than pick #22. That's why I prefer the future Memphis pick, for example, or the Dallas picks NY has, over the Lakers pick: because PICKS MATTER.
How do you know that? Where's your source? The leaks have been contradictory and mixed. Unless you have some special access to info that the rest of us don't, you have NO IDEA whether the Suns would trade #6 for Lonzo, and you're just guessing.
No he isn't, next point.
I'm not going over this again. Read the last few pages of the thread if you want more talk about how Lonzo Ball is one of the worst free throw shooters of all time. He doesn't go to the FT line often cause he's scared to drive and he's so terrible at threes nobody bothers to defend him. There are multiple clips from this year of Lonzo toeing up at the FT line and his defender just walks away from him. There's video of Jrue switching onto Lonzo and then legit just turning around and walking away. In fact, here's the video:
We need to talk about how the Pelicans totally disregarded Lonzo ball as a shooting threat last night. They flat out refused to even make attempts to contest most of his shots. Look at Jrue just turning his back. pic.twitter.com/KcmwEzA3I8
— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) March 23, 2018
Just disgusting.
yea #1, #4, and #6 is a home run. Granted i still like the #3 with knicks but throwing phoenix in with that ball trade is swaying me. It does seem a very realistic trade as phoenix is in need for it and it seems ball would like to go there so win win maybe.
If the KNICKS offered the 3rd pick and Robinson, Knox and Dennis Smith Jr plus two future 1sts I think that would be the best deal long term.
I love this.
https://youtu.be/nmTuSeREVqo
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Just while I'm posting Lonzo getting ignored by the defense clips:
I mean the Pelicans don't even PRETEND to care about Lonzo. Down right disrespectful pic.twitter.com/0vsEu7J8a5
— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) March 23, 2018
This is one of my favourites. He's at the top of the key, with the ball, wide open. No defenders around for 15 feet in ANY direction.
Brick.
I think you are selling short. That isn't overconfident; it's understanding that AD is a highly desirable commodity and that there will be multiple attractive offers on the table. When there is a bidding war, prices go up, not down because of potentially negative factors. If anything, it means that when Griffin is dealing, he can always give an interested team the impression that another deal is on the table that could be more attractive. If a team wants AD, they KNOW they are going to have to pay a lot.
I agree that the draft is an attractive way to build a team, but it should be considered the prime motivation in building a championship roster. Often players needed to develop that kind of team are only going to become available through trades or free agency.
I do hate the Lakers. But if the Lakers deal blew every other deal out of the water, I would trade AD to the Lakers in spite of my reservations. However, I do not see a scenario in which the Lakers can accrue enough assets prior to the draft in order to craft a deal that would do that. It would need to be at least a three team trade and those are fairly hard to construct. In the end, the chances that the Lakers can create a deal that blows all of the other trades out of the water are incredibly slim. If I am Griffin, I don't want Ball and the Ball family sideshow, so that deal has to me made in advance and bring at least equal value to the deal as Ball would. I also don't want Kuzma and his lack of defense to be my primary sub for when Zion isn't on the court, so they would need to move him for equal value. Even if I liked Ingram enough to be the deal's headliner coming back (and I don't), I would have to be totally convinced that his health issues are behind him and that his lack of development to this point were related to coaching and scheme and not the player. I don't know how Griffin can come to that conclusion without serious reservations. If totally healthy, Ingram would be a nice second or third piece in an AD trade, but not THE guy.
I may very well be overconfident in the type of deal that the Pelicans will be able to extract from a team for AD. But IMHO it takes some serious mental gymnastics to make the Lakers deal into something that the Pelicans should consider the best offer. I have said it before -- even though I don't want to trade AD to a team in the West, if I were Griffin, I would trade him to the Lakers if they were able to trade all of the their assets for players the Pelicans actually want and can use plus enough picks that it hurts.
Looks like there is two players out of all the trades that 100% of the board would be happy about that’s Tatum or Barrett so let’s just narrow it down to those two teams and get a deal done and move on somebody call Griffin and let him know .
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Can someone post this on repeat on r/nba. Everyone keeps downplaying Lonzo shooting... maybe because people haven't seen him play since January. I remember that game since last year. I've never seen an NBA player go from THAT bad to being actually good.
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