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Thread: What do we do about Elfrid?

  1. #1

    What do we do about Elfrid?

    Elfrid has had, shall we say, an up and down season for us. He has only played in 33 games for us this season, and a significant chunk of those games have come after the AD trade request, where the focus of the team hasn't exactly been on winning.

    So let's look at what he's been doing when he's gotten the chance. For the season, Elfrid is averaging 10.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 7.5 assists per game in about 29 minutes. He is shooting 44% from the floor, and 35.7% from three on 2.2 attempts per game, which isn't too bad. He's doing this with a 14.3 PER, which isn't too bad although a little subpar. What is really bad is his -6 net rating, and his negative BPM. Nevertheless, he has a + VORP, and his on/off rating IS positive, although only just at +0.2.

    Recently, he's seen more minutes and more responsibility, particularly as Jrue hasn't been playing due to that injury that's totally real. How has he done during that time period?

    Over the last 10 games, he has averaged 12.4 points, 9.9 assists, and 9.1 rebounds per game, shooting 44% from the floor and 37.9% from three.

    Over the last 5 (his triple double games) he has averaged 15.6 points, 12.8 assists, and 12 rebounds per game, although his percentages are down in that 5 game stretch (which makes sense, it pretty much coincides with Jrue disappearing from the court), shooting 36.3% from three, and only 41.9% from the floor.

    How good is his defense? Well, not great, but better than you might think. His -6 Net Rating is slightly misleading, because he's usually on the floor with bad lineups: his most frequent on-court partner is Julius Randle, who he's spent 610 minutes on court with, and Randle's defensive troubles are well known at this point, and their negatives amplify each other. But when we actually look at his individual one-on-one defensive stats, we see that he's actually been pretty good. Again: not great but better than you might think.

    This season, players shoot 0.3% better than their average against Payton. He actually holds players under their average everywhere within 15 feet, but once we start moving out to the perimeter, they improve, and by the time we're behind the arc, they shoot 1.5% better than their averages against Payton. This has improved recently as well: over the last 5 games, opponents only shot 0.1% better against Payton, and he's actually been holding players below their averages on the perimeter too: 3.9% worse from behind the arc. Over the last 10 games, his defense has been a net neutral: opponent's have shot precisely their averages.

    So, what do we have in Payton? He's a really good passer, a great rebounding guard, who has improved his three point shot to the point where it's solid, though not spectacular. He's still young, and while he's not been a good defender, he's also not been as bad as some might think, especially as he's got more minutes this season. I think he's worth taking a look, and I would be pretty okay with giving him any deal up to around $6.5m per. So something like 2yrs/$12m or 3yrs/$18m, something like that.

    What do you think?
    Zion ''The Earthquake'' Williamson

  2. #2
    3/18 would be a steal.

  3. #3
    If you will only give Elfrid 3 years and $18MM, because he is putting up numbers on a losing team, would you not also offer Julius Randall a similar contract because he is doing the exact same thing under the exact same circumstances?
    If you Jimmer it, they will come.

  4. #4
    I wait and see what the new coach wants to do and also wait to see what we bring back in the AD trade. I'm not opposed to bringing Payton back but I wouldn't break the bank for him. 2yr/10m seems decent.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    If you will only give Elfrid 3 years and $18MM, because he is putting up numbers on a losing team, would you not also offer Julius Randall a similar contract because he is doing the exact same thing under the exact same circumstances?
    I've said multiple times that I'm happy to resign Randle, and am happy to pay somewhere in the region of $13m per year, which is actually more than Payton. The reason I'm hesitant to give him any more is his lack of interest in playing any defense whatsoever and his poor team-stats.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    I wait and see what the new coach wants to do and also wait to see what we bring back in the AD trade. I'm not opposed to bringing Payton back but I wouldn't break the bank for him. 2yr/10m seems decent.
    So essentially we're agreed that, if the new coach/GM want him back, then we'd be looking to give him something like MLE money? Maybe a little less depending on exactly what the exception is thus season, but that kind of money.

  7. #7
    I don't see many other free agent PG's that are worth less than 5 million. I think that's the floor for his next contract for sure. Might be able to get Brogdon away from the Bucks for 3 or 4.

    I hope we re-sign him.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    So essentially we're agreed that, if the new coach/GM want him back, then we'd be looking to give him something like MLE money? Maybe a little less depending on exactly what the exception is thus season, but that kind of money.
    If I'm not mistaken MLE is around 8-9m next year. So I'd basically be ok with splitting the MLE between him and another player. I think he is more than serviceable as a backup that can start in a pinch but I want a guy who can take players off the dribble 1-on-1 next to Jrue. I think every team needs someone who can just win a match up with the game on the line.

    Our issue for years has been that's not Jrue's forte, AD doesn't have the handles or disposition to consistently do it, Cousins wasn't that player either.

    You pair a score first PG who can break down a defense next to Jrue and I think you've got a back court that can make a run in the playoffs.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    If I'm not mistaken MLE is around 8-9m next year. So I'd basically be ok with splitting the MLE between him and another player. I think he is more than serviceable as a backup that can start in a pinch but I want a guy who can take players off the dribble 1-on-1 next to Jrue. I think every team needs someone who can just win a match up with the game on the line.

    Our issue for years has been that's not Jrue's forte, AD doesn't have the handles or disposition to consistently do it, Cousins wasn't that player either.

    You pair a score first PG who can break down a defense next to Jrue and I think you've got a back court that can make a run in the playoffs.
    Who in the league would you imagine that to be? I agree that every team needs someone who can close, and while I'm not as down on Jrue's ability there are some are, I do understand it's not his biggest strength, but equally you can only sign who's there. Assuming we make an AD to Boston or NY trade, we won't be expecting a star guard back either. Aside from Morant, there aren't any star guards in this draft on that level that you would want either. So who?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Who in the league would you imagine that to be? I agree that every team needs someone who can close, and while I'm not as down on Jrue's ability there are some are, I do understand it's not his biggest strength, but equally you can only sign who's there. Assuming we make an AD to Boston or NY trade, we won't be expecting a star guard back either. Aside from Morant, there aren't any star guards in this draft on that level that you would want either. So who?
    What's wrong with Brogdon?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SmontySwilliams View Post
    What's wrong with Brogdon?
    Brogdon is gonna get paid by Milwaukee. In any case, he's not a natural scorer (yes, I know he's averaging decent points per game on good efficiency), he's more of a floor general type. I don't see him being that guy who breaks down defenses and closing out games. He's not going to improve too much from where he's at now, he'll be 27 years old barely a full month into next season. He's also not a star, there's no doubt that a lot of his efficiency comes from playing next to Giannis who has an unbelievably amount of gravity that nobody on our team will have next season (unless we get Zion), and the Bucks will probably retain him anyway.

    Also he's just had a major foot injury.

  12. #12
    Elfrid just turned 25 and has flashed enough to where I’d be pretty bummed if he weren’t here next year. Hope we can keep him and Randle ant semi-reasonable numbers.

  13. #13
    Pay Randle first then,



  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    If you will only give Elfrid 3 years and $18MM, because he is putting up numbers on a losing team, would you not also offer Julius Randall a similar contract because he is doing the exact same thing under the exact same circumstances?
    Yeah you got to go with the chain of command first. Randle comes first then worry about Payton.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by 13 - 3 View Post
    Yeah you got to go with the chain of command first. Randle comes first then worry about Payton.
    In what chain of command does a big come before a PG?

    Obviously I know that's not what you mean, you mean in terms of signing back the best player first, but the ''chain of command'' metaphor doesn't help you there.

    As a side note, we have enough money this summer (depending on the AD trade) to sign both back. There is no priority here. Just: do you want to keep them, and how much would you pay them?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 13 - 3 View Post
    Pay Randle first then,


    2yr/$10m isn't far off from my 2yr/$12m proposal. I'd be happy with either.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Who in the league would you imagine that to be? I agree that every team needs someone who can close, and while I'm not as down on Jrue's ability there are some are, I do understand it's not his biggest strength, but equally you can only sign who's there. Assuming we make an AD to Boston or NY trade, we won't be expecting a star guard back either. Aside from Morant, there aren't any star guards in this draft on that level that you would want either. So who?
    I'm not sure. I'll trust the new coaching staff with how they want to fit players. I wasn't just thinking about free agents and draft though. I also look in the trade market. If we think Morant can develop into that type of PG then I'm all for it.

    But my focus would be trying to identify a player who can beat people 1 on 1 because in the current NBA those are the most valuable players on the court especially in playoff times.

  18. #18
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    If I'm not mistaken MLE is around 8-9m next year. So I'd basically be ok with splitting the MLE between him and another player. I think he is more than serviceable as a backup that can start in a pinch but I want a guy who can take players off the dribble 1-on-1 next to Jrue. I think every team needs someone who can just win a match up with the game on the line.

    Our issue for years has been that's not Jrue's forte, AD doesn't have the handles or disposition to consistently do it, Cousins wasn't that player either.

    You pair a score first PG who can break down a defense next to Jrue and I think you've got a back court that can make a run in the playoffs.
    LoL so wait you want to pair him with a score first PG. Someone who can just win a matchup one on one with the game on the line. So how is adding a SG next to Jrue who can do the same thing? You claim he has to have a “PG” next to him but then a true Pg life Payton is not what would be best but a score first “PG”.. I guess a scoring SG who can just flat out put the ball in the hoop while taking some ball handling duties is fathomable because Jrue says he wants to play more off ball lol. You will literally say anything for sakes to “win” an argument to then completely contradict yourself.

  19. #19
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    So what is it? Does Jrue only want to play with a PG like Payton so he can play more off ball? Or a score first PG asking Jrue to handle more ball duties? Surely this couldn’t be a SG it has to be a “PG” LoL. Where are we finding this guy? Seth Curry?

  20. #20
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! JJackisangry's Avatar
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    Replace his glass fingers and he may be the guy down the line. I’m sure it’s a huge motivation to play for his hometown as well.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    LoL so wait you want to pair him with a score first PG. Someone who can just win a matchup one on one with the game on the line. So how is adding a SG next to Jrue who can do the same thing? You claim he has to have a “PG” next to him but then a true Pg life Payton is not what would be best but a score first “PG”.. I guess a scoring SG who can just flat out put the ball in the hoop while taking some ball handling duties is fathomable because Jrue says he wants to play more off ball lol. You will literally say anything for sakes to “win” an argument to then completely contradict yourself.
    Um...

    What am I contradicting here? I want a primary ball handler who can win 1 on 1 match ups and allow Jrue to attack off ball.

    What are you even going on about? Don't drunk text.

    Are you so obtuse that saying PG needs to be spelled out that the guy also needs to be able to handle the ball and pass? Clearly when I say PG or lead ball handler or any term like that, that should be implied.

  22. #22
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmontySwilliams View Post
    Might be able to get Brogdon away from the Bucks for 3 or 4.
    3 or 4 million? Not a chance. He will get paid much more than that.

  23. #23
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Also he's just had a major foot injury.
    Thought I read it was just minor plantar fasciitis.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    Thought I read it was just minor plantar fasciitis.
    I googled it, I could have sworn it was more serious than that, but you're right: they're reporting it as a minor plantar fascia tear.

    Even still, he's scheduled to miss 8 weeks, which means he'll be coming back just as the Bucks head into the second round (assuming theres no first round super upset). We'll have to see how he returns. I'm always worried by foot and ankle injuries, even relatively minor ones.

  25. #25
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! kinglio21093's Avatar
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    I'm scratching my head with all these offers for Elfrid. Given how much average NBA players make these days, you'd think Elfrid would want more than $6M right? Just don't know if that's gonna get the job done.

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