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Thread: The damage has already been done.

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by donato View Post
    I'd prefer to keep Dell. I'd like for ownership to tell Dell he has freedom to build slowly without an order for quick fixes. I'm fine with rolling the dice with Hammon to replace Gentry.
    I'm surprised no one has brought this up before. We blame Dell for a lot of stuff, but how much of it was really by choice? I mean, we all know Benson was up in age and was pushing for immediate results. So Dell did his best to bring in vets and try to build an immediate winner around AD, instead of following a slower but more sound approach through the draft and being more selective with vets and free agents.

  2. #27
    All-Star Dr. Sting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    And we shouldnt make the mistake of thinking you can build a championship franchise just through the draft. AD would still be demanding a trade today becuase this franchise wouldn't be any better off. Dell conceivably brought over equal or better players than any draft capital would have and it did not work out for a number of reasons.

    I mean look at your golden child 76ers now? Theyve just done what the Pelicans have been doing x1,000. Theyve just shuffled off draft picks, at their lowest value, for players due for max contracts THIS SUMMER. There's your "process" for you.

    It takes a team that can balance good drafts, good trades, and signing good FAs with upside. The last part is where this franchise and many other smaller markets cannot compete. It doesn't matter how well run or winning this fracnhise is, the best FAs in this ESPN/super agent influenced league will always run to the top 6 markets. And it doesn't matter how well run or winning THEY are.

    Which is why again, if you are a Pelicans fan, you are doing nothing but chasing your own tail. It's a humongous waste of time. The Pelicans are a farm team at best.
    OKC and San Antonio are small markets and they have all done far better than the Pels. We can do much better as well with the right leadership.
    Last edited by Dr. Sting; 02-09-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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  3. #28
    All-Star WildlifeAirGrp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Sting View Post
    OKC and San Antonio are small markets and they have all done far better than the Pels. We can do much better as well with the right leadership.
    Yeah, OKC is right there with Shreveport. But San Antonio has the population base (7th largest city in the US) and love downtown there.
    Thanks Pelicans Report - I get a laugh or three every day reading this thing. Hoping the magic returns to the SKC soon.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Sting View Post
    OKC and San Antonio are small markets and they have all done far better than the Pels. We can do much better as well with the right leadership.
    You're not reading it correctly or not understanding the point. The poing is about getting and keeping enough talent to win championsips.

    San Antonio is an outlier and yet, they still just lost thier best player, whom they drafted, to a larger market. They wont be winning anything anytime soon. They did worse than the Pelicns last season.

    OKC has not come close to winning anything since Durant left. They did worse than the Pelicans last season.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    I mean look at your golden child 76ers now? Theyve just done what the Pelicans have been doing x1,000. Theyve just shuffled off draft picks, at their lowest value, for players due for max contracts THIS SUMMER. There's your "process" for you.
    I don't mean to sound silly, but can you just clarify for me: are you saying that the Sixers are currently in a bad position?

    Cause they only have like, $40m fully guaranteed on their salary sheet going into this free agency. Don't need to resign Simmons until next summer, Embiid is locked up through 2023, Zhaire Smith is on cheap team control until 2022.

    Yeah they have to resign Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler, but they have like $60m to do it with, and they have bird rights for both.
    Watching Pelicans games is what Georges Bataille meant by limit experiences.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I don't mean to sound silly, but can you just clarify for me: are you saying that the Sixers are currently in a bad position?

    Cause they only have like, $40m fully guaranteed on their salary sheet going into this free agency. Don't need to resign Simmons until next summer, Embiid is locked up through 2023, Zhaire Smith is on cheap team control until 2022.

    Yeah they have to resign Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler, but they have like $60m to do it with, and they have bird rights for both.
    They truthfully dont have that much. They have no depth and they will certainly move to get some. That roster, as is, is not sustainable. So most likely they are not going to actively try to resign both even with Bird rights. Nor are they guranteed to resign the one they will go after, since it's up to the player and his market.

    So nobody called it a "bad position". But it's not ideal either. Unless making runs for half a season at a time is the goal.
    Last edited by luckyman; 02-09-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    And we shouldnt make the mistake of thinking you can build a championship franchise just through the draft. AD would still be demanding a trade today becuase this franchise wouldn't be any better off. Dell conceivably brought over equal or better players than any draft capital would have and it did not work out for a number of reasons.

    I mean look at your golden child 76ers now? Theyve just done what the Pelicans have been doing x1,000. Theyve just shuffled off draft picks, at their lowest value, for players due for max contracts THIS SUMMER. There's your "process" for you.

    It takes a team that can balance good drafts, good trades, and signing good FAs with upside. The last part is where this franchise and many other smaller markets cannot compete. It doesn't matter how well run or winning this fracnhise is, the best FAs in this ESPN/super agent influenced league will always run to the top 6 markets. And it doesn't matter how well run or winning THEY are.

    Which is why again, if you are a Pelicans fan, you are doing nothing but chasing your own tail. It's a humongous waste of time. The Pelicans are a farm team at best.
    The Spurs and the Thunder have built championship cores via only the draft. It just requires the right talent evaluators. And that's not to say we have to do it all via the draft but it certainly needs to start there. Build up several top picks and then move on from there.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    The Spurs and the Thunder have built championship cores via only the draft. It just requires the right talent evaluators. And that's not to say we have to do it all via the draft but it certainly needs to start there. Build up several top picks and then move on from there.
    Agreed.

    The Thunder drafted Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. Yes, they made the error of paying Ibaka instead of keeping Harden, but they still drafted that core. That's championship material.

    Golden State drafted Curry, Klay, and Draymond. Yes, they added Durant after, but they still went to 2 consecutive finals and won a ring without him, just with that drafted core.

    Spurs, obviously, drafted Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili. The Spurs won 5 rings off the back of those drafting choices.

    It is possible for teams, even small market teams, to draft up championship level cores. They just need to scout properly, do their due diligence, and have a smart front office and solid player development. Yes, there is a question of whether we have the personnel to do that, but the fact is that it's a place we should start.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Agreed.

    The Thunder drafted Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. Yes, they made the error of paying Ibaka instead of keeping Harden, but they still drafted that core. That's championship material.

    Golden State drafted Curry, Klay, and Draymond. Yes, they added Durant after, but they still went to 2 consecutive finals and won a ring without him, just with that drafted core.

    Spurs, obviously, drafted Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili. The Spurs won 5 rings off the back of those drafting choices.

    It is possible for teams, even small market teams, to draft up championship level cores. They just need to scout properly, do their due diligence, and have a smart front office and solid player development. Yes, there is a question of whether we have the personnel to do that, but the fact is that it's a place we should start.
    So we're pointing out the outliers as if thats the norm? The Spurs didnt tank for high draft picks. They scouted well and got some late 1st and even 2nd round picks right. Kahwi Leonard was not a lottery pick. Yet, he's not there anymore. Why?

    And even of those three, the Thunder didnt win anything. At first chance for that core to break up, it broke up.

    For every Spurs/Warriors (not a small market btw), there is a Phoenix, Orlando, Sacramento, Minnesota, and OKC.

    You obviously need to draft well if not to make moves than just for depth, but all other routes are just as important. Which both San Antonio and Golden St turned to to help move their success forward recently.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    So we're pointing out the outliers as if thats the norm? The Spurs didnt tank for high draft picks. They scouted well and got some late 1st and even 2nd round picks right. Kahwi Leonard was not a lottery pick. Yet, he's not there anymore. Why?

    And even of those three, the Thunder didnt win anything. At first chance for that core to break up, it broke up.

    For every Spurs/Warriors (not a small market btw), there is a Phoenix, Orlando, Sacramento, Minnesota, and OKC.

    You obviously need to draft well if not to make moves than just for depth, but all other routes are just as important. Which both San Antonio and Golden St turned to to help move their success forward recently.
    When the Warriors drafted Curry in 2009, they were the 18th most valuable NBA team. Just because they're in California does not mean they were a big value franchise.

    The Spurs' entire success story was written around Tim Duncan, who they drafted. Sure, they didn't tank for him, Robinson was injured, but the result was the same: they began to win because they drafted their franchise's future. Kawhi Leonard was not a lottery pick, sure, but I didn't say that we needed to desperately just cram lottery picks and that guarantees you a future.

    The Thunder made a two conference finals and a finals. No, they didn't end up winning a championship, but they won more than this franchise ever has. If we're talking about building that level of success, I'll take it every day and twice on the Sunday.

    I literally said in the post that you're quoting ''It is possible for teams, even small market teams, to draft up championship level cores.''

    Where does that say ''we only need to draft ever, that guarantees you championships, other routes are not at all important, also only lottery picks.''?

  11. #36
    Rookie GermanPelican42's Avatar
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    Hello @all,

    i have a Question special at the local fans.
    I saw a list, where the pels stand on last position. NO is the smalest market in NBA. i hear about the contract with the SKCenter, that it ends soon. (2021?)
    Whats you opinion? Did the pels have a future in NO after 2021?

    AD will left the team and my hopes that the pels could touch more Fans in NO with a Franchiceplayer AD and a good Team arround him goes to zero now.
    Im realy afraid that the AD thing is a start to a slow dead for the whole Basketball in NO.

  12. #37
    Hall of Famer DarkHornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    So we're pointing out the outliers as if thats the norm? The Spurs didnt tank for high draft picks. They scouted well and got some late 1st and even 2nd round picks right. Kahwi Leonard was not a lottery pick. Yet, he's not there anymore. Why?

    And even of those three, the Thunder didnt win anything. At first chance for that core to break up, it broke up.

    For every Spurs/Warriors (not a small market btw), there is a Phoenix, Orlando, Sacramento, Minnesota, and OKC.

    You obviously need to draft well if not to make moves than just for depth, but all other routes are just as important. Which both San Antonio and Golden St turned to to help move their success forward recently.
    If not the draft, where are you going to get your talent, especially as a small market? If you're the Knicks, you can be horrible for decades, then in one season clear cap space and still think you have a reasonable chance to get star players wanting to come play for you. If you're New Orleans, you're not signing players unless you grossly overpay. We are forced to build via either the draft or trades, until we get to the point that our franchise has a reputation like the Spurs that makes players want to play for you.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkHornet View Post
    If not the draft, where are you going to get your talent, especially as a small market? If you're the Knicks, you can be horrible for decades, then in one season clear cap space and still think you have a reasonable chance to get star players wanting to come play for you. If you're New Orleans, you're not signing players unless you grossly overpay. We are forced to build via either the draft or trades, until we get to the point that our franchise has a reputation like the Spurs that makes players want to play for you.
    Exactly. And that's exactly the path the Saints have taken. They built through the draft and trades, and free agency (Brees). Brees and Payton have created a situation where players now WANT to play in New Orleans. I actually heard Brees in a recent interview say that he's constantly heard from players that left here saying they "didn't realize how good they had it here." Also, players on other teams wishing they were on the Saints. Its so much harder on small markets, especially in the NBA where the playing field isn't level to begin with, but it can be done.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by GermanPelican42 View Post
    Hello @all,

    i have a Question special at the local fans.
    I saw a list, where the pels stand on last position. NO is the smalest market in NBA. i hear about the contract with the SKCenter, that it ends soon. (2021?)
    Whats you opinion? Did the pels have a future in NO after 2021?

    AD will left the team and my hopes that the pels could touch more Fans in NO with a Franchiceplayer AD and a good Team arround him goes to zero now.
    Im realy afraid that the AD thing is a start to a slow dead for the whole Basketball in NO.
    Hi German Pel,

    No I find it very unlikely that the Pelicans leave in 2021 . Gayle Benson who owns them pushed her husband to buy the team because she wanted them so badly. She is New Orleans completely. The fact that their other sports team (The New Orleans Saints) are also there and also owned by Mrs Benson makes it extremely unlikely they would ever split the teams up.

    The only way that I could think of the Pelicans leaving in 2021 is if Mrs Benson passes away and whoever the team was left to wanted no part of them and sold them with the new owner wanting to leave Louisiana.

    As long as Mrs Benson is alive I'd put the chances at under 1% that the team leaves New Orleans.
    Last edited by Mythrol; 02-09-2019 at 05:02 PM.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkHornet View Post
    If not the draft, where are you going to get your talent, especially as a small market? If you're the Knicks, you can be horrible for decades, then in one season clear cap space and still think you have a reasonable chance to get star players wanting to come play for you. If you're New Orleans, you're not signing players unless you grossly overpay. We are forced to build via either the draft or trades, until we get to the point that our franchise has a reputation like the Spurs that makes players want to play for you.
    Who said anything about ignoring the draft? Can you find I said that?

    Did I not repeatedly say, for years now, that every avenue is as important in building your team (draft, trades, FA)?

    So, is my main point that when it comes time that you need to attract a FA, smaller market teams like the Pelicans are going to struggle? And that teams like the Pelicans are therefore, basically, just a farm team?

    Sure we can draft them. OKC drafted them. But when these players finally mature and reach their peaks as players, is exactly when they are free to leave and sign as a FA elsewhere. AS most of them have.

    Again, not even a well run, winning franchsie like the Spurs were able to keep their best player, whom they drafted, from wanting out. This is the new ESPN/NBA...
    Last edited by luckyman; 02-09-2019 at 07:16 PM.

  16. #41
    All-Star Dr. Sting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Hi German Pel,

    No I find it very unlikely that the Pelicans leave in 2021 . Gayle Benson who owns them pushed her husband to buy the team because she wanted them so badly. She is New Orleans completely. The fact that their other sports team (The New Orleans Saints) are also there and also owned by Mrs Benson makes it extremely unlikely they would ever split the teams up.

    The only way that I could think of the Pelicans leaving in 2021 is if Mrs Benson passes away and whoever the team was left to wanted no part of them and sold them with the new owner wanting to leave Louisiana.

    As long as Mrs Benson is alive I'd put the chances at under 1% that the team leaves New Orleans.
    Agreed. As long as Mrs. Benson is around they aren't going anywhere. She says that she told her late husband Tom Benson to overpay the NBA for the team because she wanted to secure their remaining in New Orleans so badly. This was confirmed by the former NBA Commissioner David Stern, who said that he would have taken less. The big question is who does the team go to after she passes away? I am not sure if she has any living heirs.

  17. #42
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! AusPel's Avatar
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    Kenrich will inherit the team once Gayle passes. It's his city now.

  18. #43
    Hall of Famer DarkHornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Who said anything about ignoring the draft? Can you find I said that?

    Did I not repeatedly say, for years now, that every avenue is as important in building your team (draft, trades, FA)?

    So, is my main point that when it comes time that you need to attract a FA, smaller market teams like the Pelicans are going to struggle? And that teams like the Pelicans are therefore, basically, just a farm team?

    Sure we can draft them. OKC drafted them. But when these players finally mature and reach their peaks as players, is exactly when they are free to leave and sign as a FA elsewhere. AS most of them have.

    Again, not even a well run, winning franchsie like the Spurs were able to keep their best player, whom they drafted, from wanting out. This is the new ESPN/NBA...
    Where did I accuse you of saying we should ignore the draft? I never said that. I only said that we don't have the luxury of adding good players in their prime via free agency unless we are going to grossly overpay. For every problem holding onto a player entering their prime from wanting out, we're going to have twice that trying to convince someone who is not in our organization to join it.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Sting View Post
    Having time to think, I have changed my mind about a few things. Trading with the Celtics for Jason Taytum will not fix this. As corny as it sounds, this franchise needs a savior. I am not 100 per cent sold on Zion but maybe he is the next LeBron. If so, he is the obvious target. We need to wait to see who has the number one pick and make the deal.
    lmao...I've disagreed with some on this forum that the knicks would def give up the #1 for ad, but if it is other teams(and there is an overwhelming chance it is) they are NOT going to do that deal.

    Say it's atlanta for example. No way in hell they give up all those team controlled years at a lesser cap number for 1 year of AD. Not even close.

  20. #45
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Tinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacosman View Post
    lmao...I've disagreed with some on this forum that the knicks would def give up the #1 for ad, but if it is other teams(and there is an overwhelming chance it is) they are NOT going to do that deal.

    Say it's atlanta for example. No way in hell they give up all those team controlled years at a lesser cap number for 1 year of AD. Not even close.
    Thanks for the knowledge. Very informative.
    Last edited by Tinman; 02-10-2019 at 05:41 PM.

  21. #46
    it's just that people are underappreciating how incredibly valuable a rookie who could actually play star level basketball is.....if Zion is picked by a team he ends up not loving, they control him for a minimum(counting the QO if needed) of FIVE years...at a lesser cap number(even for a #1 pick...its still rookie structure).

    So compare getting Zion to signing some star...let's say Kyrie. Will Zion be a more impactful player than Kyrie over those 5 yes? Maybe, maybe not....probably not next yea but good chance by year 3.

    But......when you adjust for their cap numbers under team controlled rookie deal vs not the value becomes even more apparent.

    It's why I would be surprised if we get Zion even if the knicks get the pick. Other teams(where him signing isnt a guarantee)....not even a question

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