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Thread: What trade packages, not just for AD, do you want? What’s realistic?

  1. #101
    Charter Member Contributor PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    I would love to add Markannen, but it would be difficult if not nearly impossible to pry him from the Bulls. He is probably the center piece of their rebuild.

  2. #102
    Charter Member Contributor PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I'm just not as hot on Markkanen as you, I think. He's basically 22, and his game as a lot of flaws. Obviously 22 isn't old, he could always improve on any of those things, but it's also not dirt young, it's not like he's a complete raw project who could be anything.
    When did 22 become not young? The youngest player in the NBA is 19 (will be 20 soon). Markannen averages 19/9 and is a 38% 3pt shooter. I would guess he is an average defender. While he has holes in his game, he is developing nicely.

  3. #103
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Tinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I'm just not as hot on Markkanen as you, I think. He's basically 22, and his game as a lot of flaws. Obviously 22 isn't old, he could always improve on any of those things, but it's also not dirt young, it's not like he's a complete raw project who could be anything.
    How old are Marcus Smart & Jaylen Brown?
    For every so-called flaw that Markkanen, those 2 guys match & then some.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    When did 22 become not young? The youngest player in the NBA is 19 (will be 20 soon). Markannen averages 19/9 and is a 38% 3pt shooter. I would guess he is an average defender. While he has holes in his game, he is developing nicely.
    ''not dirt young'' was my point. What I mean by that is that a player at 22 isn't a complete unknown. If a player is 19, or 18, then there's huge huge question marks about who they will be. Then, 3 or 4 years later, they're 22 or 23 and you can look at them and get a decent idea of what they're going to look like as a complete player. That's not always a guarantee, I'm happy to admit that, but it's usually a pretty good litmus test. If a player is going to be a superstar, or a star, they've generally shown those signs already by 22. Lebron, Curry, AD, KD, Simmons, Giannis, for example, had all shown their signs of greatness by 22.

    There are exceptions, again, I'm happy to admit that: Kawhi Leonard, for example, didn't really blow up at all: instead he gradually improved every year. So I'm not claiming that this is a definite rule, but it's a trend that tends to be there.
    Watching Pelicans games is what Georges Bataille meant by limit experiences.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    How old are Marcus Smart & Jaylen Brown?
    For every so-called flaw that Markkanen, those 2 guys match & then some.
    Jaylen Brown is also 22. It's hard to judge him off this years entire stats because obviously he had a big injury to his shooting hand that he played through, but if you just take how he's played since he got the bandages off his hand in December, he's averaged basically 14 points per game, which is obviously less than Markkanen, but he also averages about 5 less FGAs per game. His actual FG% is better, and he's shooting about the same from 3. He's also a better defender.

    I'm not massively hot on Marcus Smart either. I like him, but I'm not huge on him, and I'm happy to admit there's big holes in his game, for sure.

  6. #106
    Exhibit C Nola3's Avatar
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    The one and only thing we should absolutely be focused on in getting back for AD should be another franchise centerpiece, which for the sake of argument, is someone who has a good chance to be a top 10 player in the NBA for a sustained period of time. The only realistic way to compete for a championship in the NBA is to have a player like that on the team. Rebuilds are completely pointless if you're not building around a superstar. That centerpiece gives the rebuild direction and provides the entire organization structure.

    Obviously getting that piece is the difficult part. Whether we think that could be Tatum (I'm open to the idea but skeptical), Zion (who I'm insanely high on but the team would have to be Saville-Row-level tailored to him), Ja Morant (who I don't know enough about, but the more I hear, the more I like) or some other top level prospect that I'm not thinking of (Hint: it's not Lauri Markkanen, although I think he'll develop into a great secondary option), it's all about getting that piece back in whatever trade we make.

    We already have Jrue who is a good #2 and a literally perfect third option on a great team. We will ostensibly be getting back other pieces in the trade and it will be up to the new management team to make sure those pieces fit both the timeline and the playing style of our centerpiece. That superstar has to be given room to grow and surrounded by coaches, players, and executives who will nurture that growth. That should be the singular focus whenever we finally end the hell that is the AD saga.

  7. #107
    Charter Member Contributor PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nola3 View Post
    The one and only thing we should absolutely be focused on in getting back for AD should be another franchise centerpiece, which for the sake of argument, is someone who has a good chance to be a top 10 player in the NBA for a sustained period of time. The only realistic way to compete for a championship in the NBA is to have a player like that on the team. Rebuilds are completely pointless if you're not building around a superstar. That centerpiece gives the rebuild direction and provides the entire organization structure.

    Obviously getting that piece is the difficult part. Whether we think that could be Tatum (I'm open to the idea but skeptical), Zion (who I'm insanely high on but the team would have to be Saville-Row-level tailored to him), Ja Morant (who I don't know enough about, but the more I hear, the more I like) or some other top level prospect that I'm not thinking of (Hint: it's not Lauri Markkanen, although I think he'll develop into a great secondary option), it's all about getting that piece back in whatever trade we make.

    We already have Jrue who is a good #2 and a literally perfect third option on a great team. We will ostensibly be getting back other pieces in the trade and it will be up to the new management team to make sure those pieces fit both the timeline and the playing style of our centerpiece. That superstar has to be given room to grow and surrounded by coaches, players, and executives who will nurture that growth. That should be the singular focus whenever we finally end the hell that is the AD saga.
    While I agree, our chances of getting a future top 10 player are long. Tatum may be that person or may not. He has a high ceiling and floor. Zion is certainly a possibility with a tremendous ceiling, but I think his floor could be lower. Outside of those 2, I am not sure who could be that player. I do not see any on the Lakers or Clippers or Knicks (outside of Zion if they get #1). Any other players you can think of that may be obtainable?

  8. #108
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! JJackisangry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    So,, what your saying is- Lets be a good team, but wait a couple of years?
    If you can get Markkanen in a trade, you say NO? O lawdy
    Not quite sure what rushing you are talking about?
    If I can get Laurie Markkanen now, I do it. 3 yrs left on rookie deal.
    Keep waiting & NOT RUSHING as you say & watch Jrue & Season Ticket Holders hit the exits.
    Seems to me that OKC & Indiana "RUSHED" & they aint too bad.
    BTW- pretty decent team? Really, thats the goal? WOW
    I never implied anything with my comment other than I hope we don’t rush things. Not sure where I mentioned Markkanen at all

  9. #109
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Tinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    I never implied anything with my comment other than I hope we don’t rush things. Not sure where I mentioned Markkanen at all
    My bad, I thought you were addressing the crux of why Pelicandae didn't like my trade idea . I didn't realize you were addressing only his overarching statement .

  10. #110
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! JJackisangry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    My bad, I thought you were addressing the crux of why Pelicandae didn't like my trade idea . I didn't realize you were addressing only his overarching statement .
    All good xoxo

  11. #111
    Exhibit C Nola3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    While I agree, our chances of getting a future top 10 player are long. Tatum may be that person or may not. He has a high ceiling and floor. Zion is certainly a possibility with a tremendous ceiling, but I think his floor could be lower. Outside of those 2, I am not sure who could be that player. I do not see any on the Lakers or Clippers or Knicks (outside of Zion if they get #1). Any other players you can think of that may be obtainable?
    Yea, that's kind of the problem because those types of players are so rare. But I want as many shots at that player as possible. I think SGA on the Clips has a small chance to be that guy, but I'm not putting any money on it. But I think Zion and Tatum are the two most obvious targets for a potential superstar type prospect.

  12. #112
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    ...talks about Kyrie dictating what trade options may be available to the Pelicans.

  13. #113
    Mitchell Robinson increasing his trade value

    Two straight games of at least 15 points, 14 rebounds, and 5 blocks.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Mitchell Robinson increasing his trade value

    Two straight games of at least 15 points, 14 rebounds, and 5 blocks.
    On a recent Lowe Post pod, they were saying he could be the next Rudy Gobert if he can get his fouling under control.

    Meanwhile... Jayson Tatum is having what Boston folks consider a disappointing year on the offensive end (his defense is underrated).

    The Pels decision will be interesting this summer.

  15. #115
    Yeah Tatum is having a bad offensive season because he's increased his 3pt attempts per game and is now "only" shooting 38.2% from 3. Yet he's increased his scoring, rebounds, and assists per game from his rookie season.

    I think Boston fans are simply trying to turn on Tatum so it doesn't hurt as bad when he's traded for AD.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Yeah Tatum is having a bad offensive season because he's increased his 3pt attempts per game and is now "only" shooting 38.2% from 3. Yet he's increased his scoring, rebounds, and assists per game from his rookie season.

    I think Boston fans are simply trying to turn on Tatum so it doesn't hurt as bad when he's traded for AD.
    He's not having a bad season. He's having a disappointing season. He's not as consistent as he needs to be and hasn't really improved on his rookie year. He has not met the lofty expectations of Celtics fans, but also folks who follow the entire league. Pelicans fans are still really high on him.

  17. #117
    Charter Member Contributor PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    He's not having a bad season. He's having a disappointing season. He's not as consistent as he needs to be and hasn't really improved on his rookie year. He has not met the lofty expectations of Celtics fans, but also folks who follow the entire league. Pelicans fans are still really high on him.
    Not just Pelicans' fans, most experts are still very high on him.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    On a recent Lowe Post pod, they were saying he could be the next Rudy Gobert if he can get his fouling under control.

    Meanwhile... Jayson Tatum is having what Boston folks consider a disappointing year on the offensive end (his defense is underrated).

    The Pels decision will be interesting this summer.
    I agree in Robinson. He's maybe a touch less defensively smart, but he's considerably more athletic, so while his game won't last as long (in its current form) as Gobert probably will, he does have a higher ceiling with it. And of course, there's always a possibility that he'll improve on the mental aspect of the game: he is a 20 year old rookie, after all.

    I don't see too much issue with Tatum. I understand some people are disappointed, but as Mythrol said, he's still performing at a solid level, and while that may be disappointing to some who estimated him breaking out into stardom, there's a risk of forgetting that a lot of his potential was released when the Celtics didn't have Hayward, or Kyrie, and he was their first option. Now he's not, and therefore he isn't having as huge a role. That's natural.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    Not just Pelicans' fans, most experts are still very high on him.
    Didn't mean to imply that other people aren't also high on him. But his value certainly is no longer at the peak that it was a year ago. But it's my observation that Pelicans fans online still view him at that peak.

  20. #120
    Charter Member Contributor PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    Didn't mean to imply that other people aren't also high on him. But his value certainly is no longer at the peak that it was a year ago. But it's my observation that Pelicans fans online still view him at that peak.
    Listening to the media, it is not far off of the peak. I would have expected some trepidation, but most are still sky high on him being a potential star.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    He's not having a bad season. He's having a disappointing season. He's not as consistent as he needs to be and hasn't really improved on his rookie year. He has not met the lofty expectations of Celtics fans, but also folks who follow the entire league. Pelicans fans are still really high on him.
    Improves on nearly everything except 3pt % but hasn't really improved on his rookie year? People who are cooling on Taytum are simply allowing Boston's team struggles to affect their judgment of him. Boston as an entire team isn't consistent.

    But it doesn't shock me that you'd be the one pushing this narrative.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Improves on nearly everything except 3pt % but hasn't really improved on his rookie year? People who are cooling on Taytum are simply allowing Boston's team struggles to affect their judgment of him. Boston as an entire team isn't consistent.

    But it doesn't shock me that you'd be the one pushing this narrative.
    You see what you wanna see.

    His FG% and 3pt% are both down. His VORP, WS, ORtg, and DRtg are also not as good as last year. His usage rate is up. And those are just advance stats. When you watch him play, which I recognize is subjective, he doesn't look like he's improved any between year 1 and year 2, and at times he looks like he's regressed. That certainly wasn't anyone's expectation.

    Tatum could end up being an all star. But he's also overhyped. People are expecting him to show up in New Orleans next year and turn into a player I'm not sure he is.

    I'm not pushing a narrative, just stating what I see. No different from anyone else here.

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    His FG% and 3pt% are both down. His VORP, WS, ORtg, and DRtg are also not as good as last year. His usage rate is up.
    Not trying to get involved in any argument, here, just want to clarify a few things.

    His percentages are down, that is true, but he's also taking several more shots a game, including a higher volume from 3 point range. Unless someone is a deadeye shooter, you generally see drops in percentages when they take more shots. Not a guarantee, and not saying you're wrong, but there is an explanation there that goes beyond just 'regression' as a concept.

    You're also comparing regular season to regular season, which isn't quite fair. A lot of the hype people have for Tatum comes from seeing what he was able to do during the playoffs, once Kyrie was totally out of the picture, and he was the head of the team. During that time, he averaged 18.5/4.4/2.7 on 47% from the floor and 32% from three. So for many people, they're comparing him with THAT image of him, and in fact he's shooting better now than he was during that period of time, at least from deep, and is also rebounding better this season. He's averaging less points, sure, but he's also playing significantly less minutes.

    Win shares are cumulative across a season, so you can't really compare them right now, since the season isn't over. What you CAN compare is their WS/48, and while there has indeed been a decline in that statistic, it's a fairly small decline: the sort of thing you'd generally chalk up to statistical variation, and whne you consider that WS/48 also rely on your team winning, and the Celtics have been worse overall this year, there is some explanation for that. Similar for ORTG and DRTG, actually.

    Now, I'm not making the argument that Tatum has improved in every area: he hasn't, really. He's improved in some areas, and not in others. But it's not quite representative of the full picture to just post up his percentages.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP View Post
    You see what you wanna see.

    His FG% and 3pt% are both down. His VORP, WS, ORtg, and DRtg are also not as good as last year. His usage rate is up. And those are just advance stats. When you watch him play, which I recognize is subjective, he doesn't look like he's improved any between year 1 and year 2, and at times he looks like he's regressed. That certainly wasn't anyone's expectation.

    Tatum could end up being an all star. But he's also overhyped. People are expecting him to show up in New Orleans next year and turn into a player I'm not sure he is.

    I'm not pushing a narrative, just stating what I see. No different from anyone else here.
    His fg% is down BECAUSE his 3pt% is down. His 2pt % is basically the exact same as last year. All his shooting % will be skewered because of his lower 3pt%. If he hit 10 more TOTAL 3s from the entire year his 3pt % would basically be the exact same as last year.

    He has increased his FT%, rebounds, assists, lowered his TOV% while INCREASING his usage. His PER being higher this year than last shows he is improving this year.

    So people are basing his weakened numbers off of him basically missing *2* extra 3s a MONTH. It's nonsense. The Celtics have struggled all year trying to add Kyrie and Hayward back into the lineup, Tatum has had to deal with all the same rumors as Ingram, Ball, etc and yet his is IMPROVING from nearly everywhere but his 3pt.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    His fg% is down BECAUSE his 3pt% is down. His 2pt % is basically the exact same as last year.
    Just to add some numbers to this:

    Tatum 2017-18: 63% from 0-3 feet, 25.8% from 3-10 feet, 43% from 10-16 feet, 42% from 16-3pt line.
    Tatum 2018-19: 70% from 0-3 feet, 34.8% from 3-10 feet, 42% from 10-16 feet, 36% from 16-3pt line.

    So he's actually shooting considerably BETTER this year from inside of 10 feet, but his mid-range has suffered by a fair margin.

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