Precious Achiuwa

https://youtu.be/TY893sMDG2o

The PA Announcer: "That's Precious!!!" ???

What if highlights for college players started to turn into just FT shooting?

#TheNBAruleshavebecomeajoke

#pleasegetbetteratFTsoverthebreak

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

What if highlights for college players started to turn into just FT shooting?

#TheNBAruleshavebecomeajoke

#pleasegetbetteratFTsoverthebreak

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Then Lonzo would have 0 highlights

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

What if highlights for college players started to turn into just FT shooting?

#TheNBAruleshavebecomeajoke

#pleasegetbetteratFTsoverthebreak

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It would honestly be better footage than most.

90% of highlight videos are just compilations of people hitting wide open transition dunks and occasional blocks. If they're short maybe replace the dunks with bailout threes cherry picked from games they went 2/8 in.

Highlight video culture needs to die :hihi: do your draft evaluations by actually watching a couple of games.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It would honestly be better footage than most.

90% of highlight videos are just compilations of people hitting wide open transition dunks and occasional blocks. If they're short maybe replace the dunks with bailout threes cherry picked from games they went 2/8 in.

Highlight video culture needs to die :hihi: do your draft evaluations by actually watching a couple of games.

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True will find better!! but i really like this guy!!

would you all rather him or Jalen Smith?

I would prefer Smith.

I would also prefer Smith, but at #13 I'd prefer neither of them.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

I would prefer Smith.

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https://youtu.be/YM2wwc0JJko

Who is the best defender in this draft?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Who is the best defender in this draft?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Hard to say, obviously different kinds of defense.

Best 1v1 wing defender (which is usually what people mean by ''best defender'' in a vacuum) is probably Isaac Okoro. Best team wing defender is Devin Vassel, probably.

Best defensive big is Xavier Tillman, if not he's definitely close.

Best defensive guard is hard to say.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Hard to say, obviously different kinds of defense.

Best 1v1 wing defender (which is usually what people mean by ''best defender'' in a vacuum) is probably Isaac Okoro. Best team wing defender is Devin Vassel, probably.

Best defensive big is Xavier Tillman, if not he's definitely close.

Best defensive guard is hard to say.

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What's your take on Grant Riller at 13? How can this organization sell everyone at grabbing him so early? He is my guy, but alot of folks seems to think it's too early to pick a senior there.

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

What's your take on Grant Riller at 13? How can this organization sell everyone at grabbing him so early? He is my guy, but alot of folks seems to think it's too early to pick a senior there.

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I think of he was a better defender he would definitely be more highly thought of, but he was a pretty bad defender at Charleston, so how does that transfer to the NBA? The argument is though he did so much for them offensively, so how is he defensively when he doesn’t have to exert so much energy? He wasn’t good, but that’s not to say he didn’t show flashes or doesn’t have the tools to not be a liability on that end. I wouldn’t take him at 13, but I would love to trade back into the 20s if he was still available.

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

What's your take on Grant Riller at 13? How can this organization sell everyone at grabbing him so early? He is my guy, but alot of folks seems to think it's too early to pick a senior there.

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https://youtu.be/sjeSNuZUBQs


Late 2nd at best but we do not need anymore guards

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Originally Posted by Ltdee2019

https://youtu.be/sjeSNuZUBQs


Late 2nd at best but we do not need anymore guards

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He’s a lot better than late 2nd

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

What's your take on Grant Riller at 13? How can this organization sell everyone at grabbing him so early? He is my guy, but alot of folks seems to think it's too early to pick a senior there.

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Riller is a lot of things. Divisive is kind of one of them.

The criticisms are obvious. Poor defender, a little on the older side, didn't play against the best competition in college.

The upsides are clear. Literally the best finisher in the draft, regardless of position: just an incredible, supernatural level of touch around the rim and creativity. Good handle, solid burst and athleticism, can create for himself. Decent passer (not fantastic) who can make the basic reads well enough for offense not to stick with him, with occasional flashes of some higher level creation potential somewhere in there. 40% career Catch and Shoot player on high volume over 4 years in college: worst on pullups, but good FT%, good mid-range shooting, and high degree of difficulty to his shots make me feel optimistic about his touch going forward.

I think that outside of the top top guys like AntEdwards and LaMelo, Riller is one of the best candidates in this draft for being an actual starter calibre NBA level initiator. That's huge. For me, it's enough that I would draft him higher than some others might: the issue for me is who else is still there at #13. If Poku and Okoro and Vassell and stuff are all gone, drafting him at #13 would probably be acceptable. Obviously in a perfect world we'd trade back a bit, draft him at #20 or something and pick up another asset.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

He’s a lot better than late 2nd

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Absolutely, clear first round talent. If he was a sophomore instead of a senior he'd be clear lottery talent, frankly, even despite the defensive issues.

Most mocks from people whose views I trust (read: not Sports Illustrated or Bleacher Report) have Riller in the mid to late teens. That makes sense to me.

Which mocks do you trust? This aggregate compilation amongst some of the bigger sites has him in the 1st round on only two mocks.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-mock...an-obi-toppin/

I see him as a late 1st to early 2nd type of pick (mainly due to age).

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Which mocks do you trust? This aggregate compilation amongst some of the bigger sites has him in the 1st round on only two mocks.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-mock...an-obi-toppin/

I see him as a late 1st to early 2nd type of pick (mainly due to age).

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You see, that mock you posted is an example of something I can't understand. Riller grading out at 39 basically for age and poor defense, but Obi Toppin 4th despite being
1) Also old
2) Probably even worse defensive than Riller is and
3) A guy who will probably be a 5 at the NBA level, a generally less valuable position than a guard.

Makes very little sense to me.

Anyway, mocks and big boards that I trust generally come from people whose process I can see. Most of the big companies, like the Bleacher Report I mentioned before, have draft mocks and descriptions that make it fairly clear to me that they've never watched the players in much detail; sometimes it sounds like they've never watched the players at all. They rarely give any information you couldn't get outside of a highlight tape, usually don't talk about stats much if at all, and it's basically unheard of for them to discuss biomechanics or player habits. Evaluation like that is always sketchy.

So I tend to trust mocks and big boards from individuals who I can follow, who post breakdowns of players, who talk about what they're looking for and why, etc. The best site for this kind of thing is The Stepien which has a bunch of contributors like Zach Milner, Spencer Pearlman, Cameron Purn.

Then the Prep2Pro podcast is a good one, run by Max Carlin and Ben Pfeifer, who also go into quite a bit of detail on players and regularly have guests on who discuss aspects like development, run mock drafts together, things like this.

@Cosmis on twitter is good as well. There's more I could name but that's 6 guys who if you follow and or read, you'll see a lot of good stuff with evidence behind it.

So mock drafts from any of these figures are fairly good, in my view. They don't all agree, but that's fine, the issue isn't trying to get a uniform agreement, it's just trying to make sure that you take your information from people who have actually watched the players, who have thought about them for more than five minutes, and who don't take big dunks and points per game as the be-all and end-all of drafting.

I think about history. What things have shown true as far as numbers go? How often has a player shown amazing touch in college and then came to the NBA and couldn't continue with it? I think of player hand eye coordination. Touch. Soft hands. Being sure handed. Simple things like does a player have to control the ball at times because they almost lost it.

To me, touch and soft hands on an elite level always translates and it's a premium despite being fundamental. If Lonzo Ball had the same level of touch around the basket as Riller, he'd be a top 10 player in the league. Of course, being bad on defense isn't ideal either.

Gonna be big for whomever we hire to coach and develop our talent.

Just to clarify again what I mean when I say that Riller was the best finisher in college basketball this year, regardless of position. I've said it elsewhere in the draft thread but it's buried, so it's probably good to just clarify.

This year, Riller shot about 71% at the rim despite having only 13% of his shots there were assisted. So he created 87% of his rim-attempts himself and then shot 71% on them, at 6'3. Dude just makes it happen.

Riller shot 451/647 at the rim across his entire college career (that's 69.7%) despite only having 44 dunks total. This is insane touch.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Just to clarify again what I mean when I say that Riller was the best finisher in college basketball this year, regardless of position. I've said it elsewhere in the draft thread but it's buried, so it's probably good to just clarify.

This year, Riller shot about 71% at the rim despite having only 13% of his shots there were assisted. So he created 87% of his rim-attempts himself and then shot 71% on them, at 6'3. Dude just makes it happen.

Riller shot 451/647 at the rim across his entire college career (that's 69.7%) despite only having 44 dunks total. This is insane touch.

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Yeah if we don't make any trades, I really hope we can use the 3 2nds to move up into the late firsts and take a guy like Riller.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Just to clarify again what I mean when I say that Riller was the best finisher in college basketball this year, regardless of position. I've said it elsewhere in the draft thread but it's buried, so it's probably good to just clarify.

This year, Riller shot about 71% at the rim despite having only 13% of his shots there were assisted. So he created 87% of his rim-attempts himself and then shot 71% on them, at 6'3. Dude just makes it happen.

Riller shot 451/647 at the rim across his entire college career (that's 69.7%) despite only having 44 dunks total. This is insane touch.

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To what extent do you think his finishing numbers are being discounted due to level of competition? Are you confident he can replicate against NBA length and shot-blocking?

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Originally Posted by new city champ

To what extent do you think his finishing numbers are being discounted due to level of competition? Are you confident he can replicate against NBA length and shot-blocking?

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I'm fairly confident that it will translate well. The burst is visibly there, and touch is one of the most reliable things that translates for most prospects. It's also worth noting that the Charleston team Riller played on had very few offensive weapons outside of Riller, and it was common as a result for him to be driving into pretty packed paints and having to finish through a lot of contact and through many bodies; his FT rate was .470 this year, for reference. While it's true that individual NBA defenders will be more skilled (in general) than the defenders he was going against in college, it's also true that he's likely to have far more offensive freedom and space to operate alongside other NBA team mates who can threaten the defense and therefore reduce the ability of the other team to double or triple team him on drives.

So while yes, the defense in the NBA will be much tougher, it's also likely that the added freedom and spacing of the NBA will mitigate that to some extent.

When a skillset is so outlier good, I'm usually willing to accept it as being legitimate even against poorer competition. A great example of this being a sensible thing to do is Damian Lillard, who played at Weber State in the Big Sky conference and had an even weaker strength of schedule each of his 3 years than Riller did in his last 3, but was still able to demonstrate a variety of skills that made it clear he was going to be good.