6th February - New Orleans Pelicans @ Chicago Bulls - 20-31

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

I've been disappointed with Lonzo's regression these last few games. It almost seems like early success at the three point line during a game reinforces some of the bad habits that we saw early in the season.

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I think it has to be taken into consideration that Lonzo is figuring out how to play with Zion just like everyone else. He's sacrificing a lot in order to get Zion the ball in the post. He also seems to be the only player on the team that can make an entry pass at the moment. Lets hope that's a huge point of emphasis in the off season.

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Originally Posted by donato

He's shown improvement across the board, most notably 3 point shooting. The last few games as you point out, he's 8/21 from 3, good enough for 38.1%. He hasn't taken the gigantic leap BI has, but he is making strides. Chemistry and role are still being worked out. This likely will be a somewhat different looking team by the end of the year and certainly next year, and a new coach is also a real possibility. I'm more than encouraged overall and I like the way he's trending.

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I agree that his game has improved a lot, and I don't think he's regressed across the board. But I've been disappointed that he's lost a bit of his aggression in attacking the basket as a scorer. I thought he was starting to make pretty good strides. Now some of it may be a little more congestion around the basket when both Zion and Favors are on the court. But it also seems that early success at the three point line also contributes to less attacks towards the basket. As a six six point guard with good speed and lift, this should be one of the stronger aspects of his game.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I know this is obviously a huge if, but if Zion's defensive IQ ever catches up to his athleticism and motor, he's going to be just as scary on that end as he is offensively.

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It's not that huge of an if. He was a monster defensive player in college. Brilliant rim protector, had an insane steal/block rate combo, huge defensive rebounder, fantastic point of attack defender who could swallow up ballhandlers and was totally capable of walling off post scorers as well. He's shown fantastic defense before.

I don't know that his defense will really get there this season, because of how many games he's missed and the fact that he's had no warm-up period. For him he started playing and has pretty much been expected to be the interior scorer since. But next year when he's had a training camp to actually go through the defense with everyone else and then warm into the system through early games, I'd expect to see it come back.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

I agree that his game has improved a lot, and I don't think he's regressed across the board. But I've been disappointed that he's lost a bit of his aggression in attacking the basket as a scorer. I thought he was starting to make pretty good strides. Now some of it may be a little more congestion around the basket when both Zion and Favors are on the court. But it also seems that early success at the three point line also contributes to less attacks towards the basket. As a six six point guard with good speed and lift, this should be one of the stronger aspects of his game.

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Exactly.

And I think something people are either missing or ignoring is that the fact that Lonzo doesn't drive contributes towards the clogging of the paint.

If someone isn't a threat to drive, and you know that all they will do is shoot a 3, and you also know that they're not a particularly brilliant 3pt shooter overall (even if they've been hot recently!) you can just choose not to guard them. It's not like they're going to do anything else to pressure the defense. You need to have the threat of a drive.

Only three players in NBA history have grabbed more than 50 rebounds and scored more than 150 points (while shooting above 55% from the floor) over their first eight career games:

* Hakeem Olajuwon in 1984
* Shaquille O'Neal in 1992

and

* Zion Williamson in 2020

— Tommy Beer (@TommyBeer) February 7, 2020

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

I've been disappointed with Lonzo's regression these last few games. It almost seems like early success at the three point line during a game reinforces some of the bad habits that we saw early in the season.

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What regression? He is playing great defense and played very unselfishly. His 3 point shooting has been pretty good.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

What regression? He is playing great defense and played very unselfishly. His 3 point shooting has been pretty good.

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His refusal to drive has returned after having taking a brief leave of absence during the early part of January.

January 1st until January 21nd (until Zions return, basically): 7.5 per game
January 22nd until today: 4.6 per game

Lonzo's drive rate in December was 6.9 per game. In November, it was 4.5 per game.

So since Zion's return, Lonzo's drive rate has dropped to November levels, which isn't optimal. That's a pretty clear regression.

Similarly, Lonzo's 2pt %age from Jan 1st until Jan 21st was about 65.7% on 4.8 attempts per game, a huge increase on his December numbers of 38.6% from 2. Since Zion's return, Lonzo's 2pt %age has dropped again; not only is he only taking 2 shots inside the arc per game since January 22nd, he's also only shooting 40% on them, a huge drop off in both volume and efficiency.

I'd much rather have Lonzo shooting 'only' 38% or so from 3, but upping his drive rate and finishing well at the rim, then having him shoot 40% from 3 (his %age since Zion's return) but completely forgetting how to drive and how to finish.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

His refusal to drive has returned after having taking a brief leave of absence during the early part of January.

January 1st until January 21nd (until Zions return, basically): 7.5 per game
January 22nd until today: 4.6 per game

Lonzo's drive rate in December was 6.9 per game. In November, it was 4.5 per game.

So since Zion's return, Lonzo's drive rate has dropped to November levels, which isn't optimal. That's a pretty clear regression.

Similarly, Lonzo's 2pt %age from Jan 1st until Jan 21st was about 65.7% on 4.8 attempts per game, a huge increase on his December numbers of 38.6% from 2. Since Zion's return, Lonzo's 2pt %age has dropped again; not only is he only taking 2 shots inside the arc per game since January 22nd, he's also only shooting 40% on them, a huge drop off in both volume and efficiency.

I'd much rather have Lonzo shooting 'only' 38% or so from 3, but upping his drive rate and finishing well at the rim, then having him shoot 40% from 3 (his %age since Zion's return) but completely forgetting how to drive and how to finish.

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You bring it up constantly. I think everyone would like him to drive more. It is definitely a weakness in his game. However, you seem to nitpick everything about his game and ignore every other positive facet of his game and focus only on the negatives. We know you did not want him coming over from the Lakers in a trade. I was not a huge fan either. However, I think he has become a valuable piece of the team and his chemistry with Zion cannot be ignored.

Copied from another site-

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Ball in 21 games Since Christmas (13-8 record). 22 years 103 days old today.

13.7 PPG
8.3 APG
7.5 RPG
1.3 SPG
.7 BPG
2.9 3PM on 7.4 attempts
39% 3P
63% FT
+4.1

Since Jan. 22 (when Zion Williams returned to the lineup), Lonzo Ball has handed out 70 assists, with 20 going to Zion Williamson (28.5%).

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There’s spectrums to players.

The only way to complain about Lonzo’s play right now if your expectations is to have potentially an starting allstar pointguard, shooting guard,small forward, and power forward.

But if you look at his play...let’s say in a Draymond Green spectrum, he has played very well for us recently.

If Lonzo did what’s being asked of him from those criticizing his play, he’d be 14-15 points on at least 45% shooting, 40% from 3 with 9-10 assist and 7-8 rebounds.

So my question is...are y’all just criticizing his game from the expectations of having an allstar pointguard?

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

You bring it up constantly. I think everyone would like him to drive more. It is definitely a weakness in his game. However, you seem to nitpick everything about his game and ignore every other positive facet of his game and focus only on the negatives. We know you did not want him coming over from the Lakers in a trade. I was not a huge fan either. However, I think he has become a valuable piece of the team and his chemistry with Zion cannot be ignored.

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You asked ''what regression''. I answered.

I've said elsewhere that Lonzo had improved well throughout January, and he had. On this board, I was agreeing earlier last month that he was playing his best ball as a Pelican.

The fact is that Lonzo has had horrible stretches, and great stretches. His shooting has come and gone. His defense has come and gone. His driving improved for a while and is currently in a backslide. His half-court passing has come and gone. As a result, the commentary about Lonzo has been mixed all year long; sometimes he's playing well, at which point the commentary has been largely positive. Sometimes, he's playing poorly, at which point the commentary has been negative.

That's the consequence you face from being an inconsistent player who is lacking key skills.

It's funny you bring up me not wanting him in the Lakers trade, because if you remember what my actual perspective was, you'd remember that I was actually far higher on Lonzo than I was on Ingram precisely because of his high level passing and his defense. Yet somehow, my criticism on Ingram has diminished over the course of the season (it still exists; he's not flawless) while my criticism of Lonzo hasn't. Could that be because Ingram has answered a lot of the questions I had about him, whereas Lonzo hasn't? Or is it just that I'm some 'hater'? Which is more likely, do you think?

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

If Lonzo did what’s being asked of him from those criticizing his play, he’d be 14-15 points on at least 45% shooting, 40% from 3 with 9-10 assist and 7-8 rebounds.

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That's not what anyone is asking from him at all :hihi:

His volume of shots is fine. Scoring around 10ppg is fine. It's the distribution of shots that I'd prefer to see changed; right now he's averaging fewer than 2 shots inside the arc per game, while launching massive quantities of triples. If he cut out the worst of those threes and presented more of a driving threat, he would be better and it would produce better offense overall.

10/5/7 would be absolutely fine with me, with solid defense and a slightly different shot distribution. 45/37.5/70 would be a huge step up in his shooting splits. Not asking for 15/8/10 on 45/40/85 splits :hihi: that's absurd.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's not what anyone is asking from him at all :hihi:

His volume of shots is fine. Scoring around 10ppg is fine. It's the distribution of shots that I'd prefer to see changed; right now he's averaging fewer than 2 shots inside the arc per game, while launching massive quantities of triples. If he cut out the worst of those threes and presented more of a driving threat, he would be better and it would produce better offense overall.

10/5/7 would be absolutely fine with me, with solid defense and a slightly different shot distribution. 45/37.5/70 would be a huge step up in his shooting splits. Not asking for 15/8/10 on 45/40/85 splits :hihi: that's absurd.

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I actually see what you are saying and I do agree with everything that’s being stated about his flaws.

But it comes down to one basic logical definition for me: consistency of good play is the definition of being an allstar in this league.

But Lonzos not an allstar pointguard (at least not yet). Why? Because he’s inconsistent.

Which comes back to I think the subliminal point in this: to complain about a player being consistently good when they are at the level Lonzo is at is to complain about a player not meeting expectations of an allstar.

I don’t really see an issue with criticizing his game if your expectations are that he should be am allstar. It’s hard for a player to average 10/7/5 in this league and just be a consistent player within that window. Players reach that window imo because they are inconsistent but good enough to start. That’s why I say if he did everything that’s being criticized of him, he would be 14/9/7 on 45% shooting. With wins, that would be an allstar caliber pointguard. To me there’s no such thing as a player that consistently drives to the hole but shoots 39-40% but averages 10 points a game.

I think the main culprit of complaint with those who may see issue with your criticism of him is maybe the fact that all players who aren’t allstars in this league are inconsistent players. So it feels like a masked complain of why isn’t Lonzo an allstar - Genco’d Oiled by a complain that he’s inconsistent. Favors has played well for us, but if you really break his game down to criticizing it on an expectations of having an allstar, you would say man what happened against Milwaukee? Or Favors you killed versus the Clippers and Utah...where was that versus the Nuggets? Inconsistency is why Favors isn’t an allstar.

And with saying that, I read your comments about about Ingram pre Pelicans and I just want to use that as an example.

When he was inconsistent...whether it was shot selection, rebounding etc. - he wasn’t an allstar.

Now he’s consistent and he’s an allstar.

It’s hard to complain about any player that’s an allstar. They are one because they are consistent at playing good basketball.

So the Lonzo criticism in here feels like a complaint of him not being an allstar. Because you could breakdown any non-allstar and nitpick their game based on inconsistency of playing good basketball.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

And with saying that, I read your comments about about Ingram pre Pelicans and I just want to use that as an example.

When he was inconsistent...whether it was shot selection, rebounding etc. - he wasn’t an allstar.

Now he’s consistent and he’s an allstar.

It’s hard to complain about any player that’s an allstar. They are one because they are consistent at playing good basketball.

So the Lonzo criticism in here feels like a complaint of him not being an allstar. Because you could breakdown any non-allstar and nitpick their game based on inconsistency of playing good basketball.

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I mean when was the last time a pass first/ poor shooter at PG won a chip? Mario freaking Chalmers.

A PG in this era has taken the extra burden of being essential and efficient space creater. It doesn't help pairing him with a metaphorical double negative in Jrue. He's not a great shooter either.

I feel like we can make Lonzo work, but we do need a true knockdown shooter besides JJ at guard.


Edit: Doesn't help Lonzo looking like a Ricky Rubio+.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I mean when was the last time a pass first/ poor shooter at PG won a chip? Mario freaking Chalmers.

A PG in this era has taken the extra burden of being essential and efficient space creater. It doesn't help pairing him with a metaphorical double negative in Jrue. He's not a great shooter either.

I feel like we can make Lonzo work, but we do need a true knockdown shooter besides JJ at guard.


Edit: Doesn't help Lonzo looking like a Ricky Rubio+.

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But the reason Mario Chalmers was good enough is because of superstars.

It’s the superstars at the end of the day that allows teams with flaws to win. The last time a pointguard of Mario Chalmers lack of I guess being a great player won is because Tony Parker played with Kawhi/Duncan/Ginobli....Kyrie played with Lebron and Kevin Love, Steph Curry played with Klay/KD/Draymond, and Lowry played with Kawhi/Pascal.

Mario shows us we can win championships with Lonzo. It’s all going to come down to how good Zion and Ingram are versus what the league determines the competition in the league is. If there’s a team soon out there with a allstar point, small forward, and power forward or more...then yea - we need to think about a non allstar pointguard starting for our team if we are thinking about competing.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I mean when was the last time a pass first/ poor shooter at PG won a chip? Mario freaking Chalmers.

A PG in this era has taken the extra burden of being essential and efficient space creater. It doesn't help pairing him with a metaphorical double negative in Jrue. He's not a great shooter either.

I feel like we can make Lonzo work, but we do need a true knockdown shooter besides JJ at guard.


Edit: Doesn't help Lonzo looking like a Ricky Rubio+.

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How long ago was that? Facts skewed a bit given Warriors with Curry have been in the finals the last 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Only three players in NBA history have grabbed more than 50 rebounds and scored more than 150 points (while shooting above 55% from the floor) over their first eight career games:

* Hakeem Olajuwon in 1984
* Shaquille O'Neal in 1992

and

* Zion Williamson in 2020

— Tommy Beer (@TommyBeer) February 7, 2020

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I hope Zion has the agility of Hakeem and the power of Shaq.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

But the reason Mario Chalmers was good enough is because of superstars.

It’s the superstars at the end of the day that allows teams with flaws to win. The last time a pointguard of Mario Chalmers lack of I guess being a great player won is because Tony Parker played with Kawhi/Duncan/Ginobli....Kyrie played with Lebron and Kevin Love, Steph Curry played with Klay/KD/Draymond, and Lowry played with Kawhi/Pascal.

Mario shows us we can win championships with Lonzo. It’s all going to come down to how good Zion and Ingram are versus what the league determines the competition in the league is. If there’s a team soon out there with a allstar point, small forward, and power forward or more...then yea - we need to think about a non allstar pointguard starting for our team if we are thinking about competing.

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Mario doesn't prove squat, because that was before the 3pt shoot being hyper utilized.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Mario doesn't prove squat, because that was before the 3pt shoot being hyper utilized.

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I’m confused on the point you are trying to make.

Where’s Chris Paul’s championships? Russell Westbrook’s? Where’s Kemba Walkers? Where’s Damian Lillards? James Hardens? Is Luka a title contender this year? How about D’Angelo Russell?

Lakers are title contenders with Avery Bradley as their starting point guard. Clippers are title contenders with Patrick Beverly. Cavs made the finals one year recently in this hyper era you speak of with Kyrie hurt in the playoffs and starting George Hill. The 6ers were a shot away from beating the champs with a pointguard who can’t and doesn’t shoot long distance playing through a 7 foot post player.

You can win different ways in this league.

Such a beautiful off night.

Thanks refs. And thanks Sixers.