Thoughts on how to assess Zion's defense so far?

Is it:

A. A conditioning issue because he wants to save his energy for offense
B. An effort issue as per instructions from the coaching staff to not exert himself too much on that end
C. Rookie growing pains/mental lapses
D. A mindset issue:- he thinks other players should pick up the defensive slack because of what he provides offensively
E. Somewhere between just not caring and the NBA game being a bit fast for him at this point

:confused:

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Is it:

A. A conditioning issue because he wants to save his energy for offense
B. An effort issue as per instructions from the coaching staff to not exert himself too much on that end
C. Rookie growing pains/mental lapses
D. A mindset issue:- he thinks other players should pick up the defensive slack because of what he provides offensively
E. Somewhere between just not caring and the NBA game being a bit fast for him at this point

:confused:

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The answer is in the question.

I think he cares but he has never had to be intelligent on that end and instead just relied on sheer athleticism to overcome inferior opponents. Now, he is in a league with guys who are more skilled than him, way smarter, and only a little less athletic vertically and more athletic laterally. And these are the results.

A true dog would be heated with how they are getting embarrassed and would be fueled by this level of adversity they are facing and would go harder each and every game, probably picking up more fouls because of the aggressiveness, but learning. Zion is not that so he just gets a little disappointed and jogs back up court after every time a guy like Harrell embarrasses him

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I think he cares but he has never had to be intelligent on that end and instead just relied on sheer athleticism to overcome inferior opponents. Now, he is in a league with guys who are more skilled than him, way smarter, and only a little less athletic vertically and more athletic laterally. And these are the results.

A true dog would be heated with how they are getting embarrassed and would be fueled by this level of adversity they are facing and would go harder each and every game, probably picking up more fouls because of the aggressiveness, but learning. Zion is not that so he just gets a little disappointed and jogs back up court after every time a guy like Harrell embarrasses him

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Stan needs to be on everyone's ****** who just jogs back in defence, and drag those who do

You've alluded to some sort of rift between Zion and the ball club that that is causing them to treat him with kid gloves, which you are loathe to elaborate on

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I think he cares but he has never had to be intelligent on that end and instead just relied on sheer athleticism to overcome inferior opponents. Now, he is in a league with guys who are more skilled than him, way smarter, and only a little less athletic vertically and more athletic laterally. And these are the results.

A true dog would be heated with how they are getting embarrassed and would be fueled by this level of adversity they are facing and would go harder each and every game, probably picking up more fouls because of the aggressiveness, but learning. Zion is not that so he just gets a little disappointed and jogs back up court after every time a guy like Harrell embarrasses him

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Define "a little less athletic vertically," lmao. And I don't think Zion lacks lateral athleticism, because that is patently clear on offense, he couldn't move the way he does without being incredibly agile laterally, or else he'd be an entirely straight line driver.

The problem is moreso that his footwork is terrible, and this has always been a problem, going back to college. Transition wise, he's getting better at getting back on D but there are obviously still many instances where he doesn't, and I would be inclined to believe it is an effort/conditioning issue, but of course I could be wrong. I don't think any of these are non-correctable, btw.

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Is it:

A. A conditioning issue because he wants to save his energy for offense
B. An effort issue as per instructions from the coaching staff to not exert himself too much on that end
C. Rookie growing pains/mental lapses
D. A mindset issue:- he thinks other players should pick up the defensive slack because of what he provides offensively
E. Somewhere between just not caring and the NBA game being a bit fast for him at this point

:confused:

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He's not even that bad individually lmao. Terrible footwork and lazy in transition but solid instincts in the half court. Relax man, Rome wasn't built in a day.

When Zion wants the loose ball (usually an offensive board), he draws on energy from some other realm and can out vert, out lateral and out anticipate anyone

I think he's just generally uninterested in playing defense outside of rebounding

It seems like a conditioning issue and effort. I'd rather him play fewer minutes with decent defense, than umm....what he's been doing.

Zion should lose more weight if possible. Lose 15 lbs. get to 270. Improve shooting.

Defense is going to improve. He needs to move to SF after he sheds weight. Zion has to improve shooting and stop turning the ball over. His defense is going to take time. If he?s still playing weak defense after 164 games then I will be more concerned.

This team has a lot of work to do. We should give it time but consider trading Lonzo to Denver for Harris.


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I think the most noticeable thing about Zion is the defensive energy and motor isn't there. I think he will be fine over time but I don't think he has that Draymond Green type of passion and intensity on the defensive end.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

I think the most noticeable thing about Zion is the defensive energy and motor isn't there. I think he will be fine over time but I don't think he has that Draymond Green type of passion and intensity on the defensive end.

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That's one glaring difference

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Originally Posted by AusPel

That's one glaring difference

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...and that why I said:

" Right now, offensively, he's Draymond Green on steroids....."

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Originally Posted by As I See It

...and that why I said

" Right now, offensively, he's Draymond Green on steroids....."

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Green in his prime was pretty good in the paint

(Prime Green was) also a better passer and much better shooter than Zion.

Not to forget Green won DPOTY in 2017. Zion sucks on D.

You could argue that prime Green was Zion on steroids

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Green in his prime was pretty good in the paint

(Prime Green was) also a better passer and much better shooter than Zion.

Not to forget Green won DPOTY in 2017. Zion sucks on D.

You could argue that prime Green was Zion on steroids

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You apparently think that, overall, Zion does not measure up to Green.

Good News: No argument.

Further: Draymond Green is more likely Zion's ceiling if Zion becomes proficient as a passer and decides to play defense (two massive if's)

Well Zion is not AD, will never be half of AD.We better get used to him.

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Originally Posted by IVAN_NOH

Well Zion is not AD, will never be half of AD.We better get used to him.

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You forget how terrible AD was defensively in his first few seasons. He was completely clueless, missing rotations on the daily. But, he turned himself into an all defence guy. He was actually pretty on point offensively from day 1, which was unexpected

If Zion wants to be a great defender, he can be one. Not AD level, but a great one nonetheless

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Originally Posted by As I See It

You apparently think that, overall, Zion does not measure up to Green.

Good News: No argument.

Further: Draymond Green is more likely Zion's ceiling if Zion becomes proficient as a passer and decides to play defense (two massive if's)

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I don't like the Green comparison. Dray was a facilitator first and foremost. Zion's instinct is drive and put ball in hoop

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Originally Posted by AusPel

I don't like the Green comparison. Dray was a facilitator first and foremost. Zion instinct is to score

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I respect the fact you don't like it....

But it doesn't give you the right to try to belittle someone else who does....call them a troll....invite them to leave the forum....write off thoughts you don't agree with as trash.

BTW: I also agree that Zion's instinct is to score as opposed to Draymond's instinct which is to win. Being a scorer got Pete Maravich and Alan Iverson into Spingfield and will likely get James Harden there too (regardless of what happens in Brooklyn). So there's hope for Zion.

Apologies, sometimes I get a little too passionate when it comes to my Pellies

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Apologies, sometimes I get a little too passionate when it comes to my Pellies

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You're a big man, sir. Likewise. if I misspoke, I apologize.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/e6...f5d5c052b3.gif

He's too heavy. He isn't nearly explosive vertically or laterally as he was in HS and Duke. There's almost always a learning curve defensively because guys are so much better than the previous level.

This is why I stress it makes more sense to build a winner slowly with young guys on rookie contracts. Let the core go through the learning curve together. Timing is crucial in team building.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

He's too heavy. He isn't nearly explosive vertically or laterally as he was in HS and Duke. There's almost always a learning curve defensively because guys are so much better than the previous level.

This is why I stress it makes more sense to build a winner slowly with young guys on rookie contracts. Let the core go through the learning curve together. Timing is crucial in team building.

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Don't let folks here you say this about the chosen one or pride and joy and hope for this franchise baby Zion! Expect to get attacked with how many games he played, being an idiot for making assumptions so fast, and whining about a kid who is dominating.


All jokes aside, as I've been consistently saying this all comes down to Zions camp and Pelicans front office trusting each other and being on the same page with his off season assignments and his habits. His step dad can't be the only one training him anymore and his mom can't be his damn nutritionist. They have to fall back and Zion has to learn how to be a man and mature and trust folks to do their jobs with him if we ever want this guy to truly get better.

This whole babying thing that Griffin and the team does combined with the fans being so afraid to critique him is going to create a AD situation all over again but folks are too blind to realize it.

Btw I hate the fact that MM said this week's ago in a pessimmistic tone which turned people away and made folks defensive, but he was 100 percent right with the facts he said about Zion and the assessments we all thought about him from Duke to the NBA. Zion williamson so far is not the same player we expected, and to be honest if I knew so far that this would be who we were getting I would have EASILY drafted Ja Morant over Zion. I feel like a few people only have the stones to say that and I'm honestly one of them.

It's more than Zion tightening his handles, or learning defense, getting a jump shot, etc it's just his on court character so far that turned me off from him as well as interviews. He just so far doesn't scream leader, person who leave it all on the court, passionate gamer, etc like he showed at Duke. And if anyone feels that is the same person they are lying to themselves.

I disagree with MM assessment that he lost his love for basketball, I believe it's more that Zion needs a sports psychologist to help with trusting his body and the mental block of preservation with his health. It's also possible with the surgery he lost his explosion or Pelicans medical staff at the time told him to preserve his movement with the whole "learn how to move kinetics" thing so it can honestly be the Pelicans organization telling Z to not move as freely to preserve his overall longevity.

The question is if this is true, is this just a early thing for his career or is this a forever thing. Also what kind of habits will that create with a young kid? With all this in mind, it just screams that Duke Zion is likely dead due to the injury and how his body is constructed, and this new heavier slower version of Zion is TBH not the type of player I feel comfortable in building a franchise around.

If I knew this will be Zion future projection a more polished athletic version of Zach Randolph, I will trade Zion while he is hot.

If I'm investing in a future, I want my franchise to be a better leader, have way less movement limitations, and can play defense. But thats just me.

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

Btw I hate the fact that MM said this week's ago in a pessimmistic tone which turned people away and made folks defensive, but he was 100 percent right with the facts he said about Zion and the assessments we all thought about him from Duke to the NBA. Zion williamson so far is not the same player we expected, and to be honest if I knew so far that this would be who we were getting I would have EASILY drafted Ja Morant over Zion. I feel like a few people only have the stones to say that and I'm honestly one of them.

It's more than Zion tightening his handles, or learning defense, getting a jump shot, etc it's just his on court character so far that turned me off from him as well as interviews. He just so far doesn't scream leader, person who leave it all on the court, passionate gamer, etc like he showed at Duke. And if anyone feels that is the same person they are lying to themselves.

I disagree with MM assessment that he lost his love for basketball, I believe it's more that Zion needs a sports psychologist to help with trusting his body and the mental block of preservation with his health. It's also possible with the surgery he lost his explosion or Pelicans medical staff at the time told him to preserve his movement with the whole "learn how to move kinetics" thing so it can honestly be the Pelicans organization telling Z to not move as freely to preserve his overall longevity.

The question is if this is true, is this just a early thing for his career or is this a forever thing. Also what kind of habits will that create with a young kid? With all this in mind, it just screams that Duke Zion is likely dead due to the injury and how his body is constructed, and this new heavier slower version of Zion is TBH not the type of player I feel comfortable in building a franchise around.

If I knew this will be Zion future projection a more polished athletic version of Zach Randolph, I will trade Zion while he is hot.

If I'm investing in a future, I want my franchise to be a better leader, have way less movement limitations, and can play defense. But thats just me.

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His career, thus far, is certainly trending as you suggest.

It's obvious. I mean, highlight or not. LOOK at the player in this video. Isolate any moment, cherry pick to your heart's desire...and find when Zion has EVER moved or been this active at any point.

https://youtu.be/iG-F4n6u-pc

I mean, Jesus Christ, the dude was blocking 3pt jumpshots. It's like the whole body kinetics thing has him afraid to leave the ground. Maybe it's all intentional from the staff? I don't know, man...

ANd yes. Zion is still much heavier looking than he was here. He needs to get back to this size.

Lol.

One of the best starts in NBA history.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

Lol.

One of the best starts in NBA history.

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This thread isn't about Zion's offensive production

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Originally Posted by AusPel

This thread isn't about Zion's offensive production

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Surprisingly, I never said it was. My comment still doesn?t change.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

Surprisingly, I never said it was. My comment still doesn?t change.

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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TiredMajes...mneyswift.webp

Zion's defense is starting to improve. It has been clear that his processing on that end is extremely slow right now, but it's getting better. I think we overreacted pretty drastically at the beginning of the season. The reason we're not seeing the splash plays like we saw at Duke is because that's how SVG currently wants them to play.

SVG's entirely philosophy is clog the paint and protect the rim without fouling, so its understandable that Zion's block and steal numbers are down compared to his Duke days. If you look around the team, Eric Bledsoe's steal rate is down too, as is Steven Adams' block rate. SVG doesn't want guys closing too hard on 3 point shooters, gambling on steal attempts, or trying to block shots outside of their zone. Zion is just worse at transferring that philosophy to on-court play because he's basically a rookie, and he's in his second defensive system in 2 years. Once his processing catches up to his athleticism, he'll be fine. We're starting to see it with his handle on the offensive end. It'll be a similarly slow moving but positive progression defensively.

Lastly, we need to set our expectations lower than Draymond. If that's the comp, we're going to be extremely disappointed.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Zion's defense is starting to improve. It has been clear that his processing on that end is extremely slow right now, but it's getting better. I think we overreacted pretty drastically at the beginning of the season. The reason we're not seeing the splash plays like we saw at Duke is because that's how SVG currently wants them to play.

SVG's entirely philosophy is clog the paint and protect the rim without fouling, so its understandable that Zion's block and steal numbers are down compared to his Duke days. If you look around the team, Eric Bledsoe's steal rate is down too, as is Steven Adams' block rate. SVG doesn't want guys closing too hard on 3 point shooters, gambling on steal attempts, or trying to block shots outside of their zone. Zion is just worse at transferring that philosophy to on-court play because he's basically a rookie, and he's in his second defensive system in 2 years. Once his processing catches up to his athleticism, he'll be fine. We're starting to see it with his handle on the offensive end. It'll be a similarly slow moving but positive progression defensively.

Lastly, we need to set our expectations lower than Draymond. If that's the comp, we're going to be extremely disappointed.

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Come on man! Expecting a 20 yo dude to be the offensive AND defensive POY isn't too much to ask? Sheesh <<<<<< (hyperbole)

I legit don't know what's going on. He's not even getting in a stance half the time. Plays super upright and gives no effort. If this is the instructions of Stan/Griff.... both need to be fired, immediately. Obviously that won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

I legit don't know what's going on. He's not even getting in a stance half the time. Plays super upright and gives no effort. If this is the instructions of Stan/Griff.... both need to be fired, immediately. Obviously that won't happen.

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It's not going to happen because it's a kneejerk reaction that makes no sense less than 20 games into a rebuild season lmao

There are obvious issues that need to fixed, but let me tell you, you do not get anywhere as a franchise by firing your GM one season, firing your coach the next season, then firing your GM and your coach the next season, immediately after trading/letting go half your roster.

That's just reactionary decision making that gets you nowhere and is almost guaranteed to just annoy the stars of the team who will be wanting to see some consistent direction

It's one thing to be told ''yes, we suck now, but here's our plan and this is the approach we're taking and we're going to work on these things to get here''.

It's another thing to have everyone constantly throwing every plan in the garbage every five minutes and starting from scratch. Then you get impatient. Then you get annoyed. Then you ask for a trade.

This is a touchy subject in this forum. Either fall in line with the 'group-think' or get ostracized. But, for God's Sake don't criticize the 'Sacred Cow'.

But, for what it's worth, Zion stinks defensively.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

This is a touchy subject in this forum. Either fall in line with the 'group-think' or get ostracized. But, for God's Sake don't criticize the 'Sacred Cow'.

But, for what it's worth, Zion stinks defensively.

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Sorry to ruin your attempt at looking like the brave truth-teller, who isn't afraid of the controversy, but this thread is filled with people saying he has no motor, needs to lose 25lbs, has never had to think, and sucks.

If anyone is falling in line with the current ''group-think'', you can see them in the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It's not going to happen because it's a kneejerk reaction that makes no sense less than 20 games into a rebuild season lmao

There are obvious issues that need to fixed, but let me tell you, you do not get anywhere as a franchise by firing your GM one season, firing your coach the next season, then firing your GM and your coach the next season, immediately after trading/letting go half your roster.

That's just reactionary decision making that gets you nowhere and is almost guaranteed to just annoy the stars of the team who will be wanting to see some consistent direction

It's one thing to be told ''yes, we suck now, but here's our plan and this is the approach we're taking and we're going to work on these things to get here''.

It's another thing to have everyone constantly throwing every plan in the garbage every five minutes and starting from scratch. Then you get impatient. Then you get annoyed. Then you ask for a trade.

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Yeah, I was frustrated last night and made a kneejerk reaction, for sure. But I'm concerned.

It's one thing if the defensive IQ isn't there at this stage, but seeing the stark difference in motor from now to his Duke days just presents a scary proposition of Zion never getting back to that level of defensive intensity. I know he's a basically still a rookie, and I haven't lost faith in him or the coaching staff, but it's really not fun to see what he's doing on that end rn. And I'm certainly not one to fall in to the legion of groupthink that believe he's somehow the worst defender in the league or something, it wasn't long ago that I was talking about his improvement on that end.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Yeah, I was frustrated last night and made a kneejerk reaction, for sure. But I'm concerned.

It's one thing if the defensive IQ isn't there at this stage, but seeing the stark difference in motor from now to his Duke days just presents a scary proposition of Zion never getting back to that level of defensive intensity. I know he's a basically still a rookie, and I haven't lost faith in him or the coaching staff, but it's really not fun to see what he's doing on that end rn. And I'm certainly not one to fall in to the legion of groupthink that believe he's somehow the worst defender in the league or something, it wasn't long ago that I was talking about his improvement on that end.

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Yeah, I understand having some level of concern. One of the reasons I ranked Zion as such an all-time prospect is that, based on his Duke play, I thought his defensive peak was going to be All Defense level. Right now, we're a hell of a long way from that, and yes part of that seems to just be raw activity level.

I don't think he's quite as bad as some people are claiming: if you read the way people write about Zions defense sometimes you would be forgiven for thinking he's the worst defender in the history of basketball, which is far from true. But there's definitely a huge amount of room for improvement, both in terms of the motor and the activity level. Obviously I hope to see it improve over time.

I think that part of what has people so worked up is that it feels like Zions been in the league longer than he really has, because we're in late January of his second season. For a normal player, in Non COVID times, with no injuries, a player is usually about 110 games into their career and you start wanting to see the gaps in the game close up. But Zion, who sat out more than half of last year to injury, followed by this season which started months late, isnt even 40 games in yet. So people, I think, are wanting 110+ games of defensive improvement to show in a guy with about a third of that, and there's an obvious gap between reality and desire there.

That's not to absolve Zion completely; he needs to be better. But it's just context worth considering.