Zion = Draymond Green ?

"Speaking this week, Griffin said that he thinks that Williamson has a similar skill set on offense to Green." -

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/david-g...020017526.html

He’s not wrong. They both have high BB IQ, good passers, great on defense, not good shooters.

The glaring difference is Zions athleticism. If Zion ends up being a more athletic Green... I’d be very happy! Green is one of the most underrated players in the league. If Zion can learn how to shoot... he will be 10x better obviously.

On offense, I don't see it much at all.

Obviously no one-on-one comparison is good. Direct player comparisons are almost always off.

But the Barkley and Lebron comparisons for Zion on offense are much more accurate than Green. Green is a phenomenal passer, and it's unlikely that Zion ever reaches quite his level at that (that is, I don't think Zion's likely to average 7 assists for 4 years in a row), but as an actual scorer and gravitational force on offense, Green is fairly minimal. Can't shoot, doesn't take a bunch of shots, isn't a creative finisher at the rim, doesn't have massive amounts of touch around the basket, can't drive reliably, doesn't have a developed off-the-dribble game, etc.

Zion has all of that. He's an incredible finisher at the rim with top tier touch. He has a far superior handle to Green, can take people off the dribble and even has some cross-over moves in his arsenal. He's a creative finisher: at college, I saw him make left handed layups, right handed layups, all manner of dunks, finishes around players, through contact, flips and scoops from 8 feet out, things like this: I would not want Green taking those shots with any regularity.

Where Zion is most comparable to Green is on defense. Again, it's unknown right now if he will live up to Green's LEVEL on defense, but his style of 1-5 switching, using strength and positioning as well as quick feet and lateral movement to play instead of traditional stances or high-hand/verticality strategies, will very likely be Zion's technique as well in the NBA: after all, it's often what he did in college. Obviously Green is an all-time defender, and who knows whether Zion will do that (he has all the tools and ability, but sometimes things just don't work out), but that's where their games are most similar.

What is he “talking” about?

As some may know, I’m no Griffin fan, and a lot of it is because of reasons like this.

He’s so amateur hour sometimes. Like a 10 year old trading trading cards. It’s unnecessary and I understand maybe a small percentage of it comes from just passion and looking for any avenue to get out ideas and thoughts that pop up in his head when there’s a pocket of calm...dude, just let stuff play out. You are a professional exec of basketball operations. Not a Youtube conspiracy vlogger.

I’m not going to criticize the comparison because in some small way I can see maybe where he’s coming from (especially when you consider duke and coach k didn’t really run a offense showcasing Zion’s full carrying ability because he’s that good of finding moments himself within the game ala a Draymond / also the high octane offense is likely to showcase him rebounding or getting a steal and making quick fullcourt decisions), but under the surface everything he says starts to feel like there’s an agenda he has to push through or combat for whatever inkling of a reason he has in his head.

Wonder what he’s going to say in mid late August, then September? That’s what it feels like.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

He’s so amateur hour sometimes. Like a 10 year old trading trading cards. It’s unnecessary and I understand maybe a small percentage of it comes from just passion and looking for any avenue to get out ideas and thoughts that pop up in his head when there’s a pocket of calm...dude, just let stuff play out. You are a professional exec of basketball operations. Not a Youtube conspiracy vlogger.
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That's kind of a weird comparison to make, the youtube conspiracy vlogger idea.

I've already posted in this thread that I disagree in a few ways with Griff about the Draymond on offense comparison, but this isn't ''amateur hour''. I disagree with his take, but it is take that makes at least some degree of sense. The way he explains it, with Zion running in transition and making plays rather than being someone who just takes shots, is a totally valid way of approaching Zion. Now, I think that's only one aspect of Zion's potential and that if it's the one you focus on to the detriment of other skills, you're making a mistake, but it IS an aspect.

He's done a fantastic job so far in his time with the Pelicans, and he is a championship winning GM. I don't think he needs lessons on how to be a ''professional exec of basketball operations'', and he's certainly not ''amateur hour''.

The fact is that you have to recognise the narrative which USED to surround the Pelicans. Think about how people considered this franchise even as recently as January. Now think about how people consider the Pelicans today.

In January, we were a poverty franchise that people constantly joked about moving out of New Orleans. The only time people talked about us was to contemplate when AD was going to leave, just like our last star in CP3 did. We were a joke, a constant loser that never quite made it, that consistently cycled through bad contracts and 10 day contracts in order to field a roster. Every year we were a disappointment. Our front office was seen as a joke.

Today, we're widely considered one of the most exciting young teams, a top 5 team to watch next year. Many analysts and bloggers consider us a fringe playoff team - in the West - despite currently having a roster with exactly zero players on it who have made an all-star team in the last five years. I've seen us listed as having one of the brightest futures in the NBA. We've been praised on television and in articles regularly for assembling a great team with a mix of veterans and youth, and we are widely considered as having done fantastically both in the AD trade and the draft.

At least part of that change in narrative is the difference in communication. Demps, whether you liked or hated him, did not communicate, and that's a problem. When you let everyone else do the talking, you let everyone else control the narrative, and then you have to deal with whatever reputation you've been allocated by others. Griff is not allowing that. By communicating, by talking, Griff gets to construct the narrative he wants the team to carry, and to make others adjust to his vision. He's been on the Woj pod, the Beck pod, Sirius XM, Colin Cowherd's show, and more, creating his own narrative. That has been a serious part of the reason the perspective on this franchise has changed.

You might personally prefer a GM who keeps it a little quieter and doesn't control that narrative. That's fine, you're allowed to prefer that and nobody can tell you that you're wrong. But to act like Griff's doing it because he's ''amateur hour'' rather than because he has a different perspective on optics than you is absurd beyond all belief.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's kind of a weird comparison to make, the youtube conspiracy vlogger idea.

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Because to me, that’s what it feels like.

I’m going to say this. You are passionate about the team more than many fans are passionate about their team. When you are in depth probably the way we are about reading all the articles, looking at the timing of things, seeing what’s exactly being said, and how calculated Griffin is moving...it’s one thing to see a person control a narrative and another thing to see someone create one. IMO Griffin is doing both.

It’s my personal opinion that it’s amatuer hour because:
1. It’s very visible to me. He can’t be covert I suppose if he wants his message out
2. Content GMs don’t have to do these things with their teams/players who have yet to play a game

Over this summer and just listening and watching Griffin, I have my own personal opinions on the narrative and what he’s trying to control and create. As much as I know you follow, I think we both could come to the agreement that there is a feeling of one if you trust your gut and the fact that you agree he’s trying to get ahead of things right now. No way am I going to derail this thread, but I, like you, agreed with his assessment sort of in a pocket of Zions game.

Draymond on offense for Zion is well below expectations. Let’s get that out the way and speak the honest truth. I think you and I both 1. Understand Zion is more capable of that and 2. Griffin necessarily wasn’t saying he won’t be the scorer his hype and expectations call for. Just that he has that control the full court game ability like Draymond.

So the question is. If we both know Griffin is smart enough to not think that, why is he focused on saying the potential Monday morning Steven A hot take when he knows the “dumb casual” fan will run with the narrative that the GM compares Zion to Draymond Green when he could have just kept that to himself (especially when you see full frontal they are trying to kill the kids hype with any type of comparison, diss, etc.)

Do you see where I’m going?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

On offense, I don't see it much at all.

Obviously no one-on-one comparison is good. Direct player comparisons are almost always off.

But the Barkley and Lebron comparisons for Zion on offense are much more accurate than Green. Green is a phenomenal passer, and it's unlikely that Zion ever reaches quite his level at that (that is, I don't think Zion's likely to average 7 assists for 4 years in a row), but as an actual scorer and gravitational force on offense, Green is fairly minimal. Can't shoot, doesn't take a bunch of shots, isn't a creative finisher at the rim, doesn't have massive amounts of touch around the basket, can't drive reliably, doesn't have a developed off-the-dribble game, etc.

Zion has all of that. He's an incredible finisher at the rim with top tier touch. He has a far superior handle to Green, can take people off the dribble and even has some cross-over moves in his arsenal. He's a creative finisher: at college, I saw him make left handed layups, right handed layups, all manner of dunks, finishes around players, through contact, flips and scoops from 8 feet out, things like this: I would not want Green taking those shots with any regularity.

Where Zion is most comparable to Green is on defense. Again, it's unknown right now if he will live up to Green's LEVEL on defense, but his style of 1-5 switching, using strength and positioning as well as quick feet and lateral movement to play instead of traditional stances or high-hand/verticality strategies, will very likely be Zion's technique as well in the NBA: after all, it's often what he did in college. Obviously Green is an all-time defender, and who knows whether Zion will do that (he has all the tools and ability, but sometimes things just don't work out), but that's where their games are most similar.

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Zion is far closer to Draymond offensively than he is defensively at this point in their careers.

The reason Griff made these comments is for fans who expect the offense to run through Zion. Zion's offense will come from grabbing a defensive board and pushing the ball a la Draymond Green. His made baskets in the half court will primarily be off offensive rebounds or assisted rim runs. We're not going to regularly throw him the ball on the perimeter and expect him to get a bucket or facilitate. That's not his game.

Additionally, Draymond Green is not a phenomenal passer. In fact, Zion may already be a better passer, but there's much more to being a high assist guy in the NBA than the actual physical ability to throw the ball where you want. Draymond is a good passer, but can average 7+ assists because he's extremely unselfish (sometimes to a fault) and has great awareness and decision making.

Finally, the LeBron comparisons have to stop. Let's not confuse hype with on court game. LeBron and Zion share an enormous amount of fame and hype coming into their rookie years and are physically imposing, but that's about where the comparison ends at this point. The make up of this roster vs. the Cavs' 2003-04 roster is completely different. Zion will not be asked to do all the things the Cavs got out of LeBron during his rookie year, and that's ok. That's why David Griffin continues to try to protect Zion by speaking very frankly about their expectations.

Draymond comparisons are a good way to begin to set expectations (he's not going to come in right away and average 24 pts or anything), set Zion up for success (you saw how hard the Knicks went at him in 1/2 of a Summer League game, that's going to be every night at least to start the season), and encourage/allow him to focus on things other than putting the ball in the basket.

He should expect a lot of Veterans to try and put him in his place this season. All that Hype has folks in the league wanting him to fail or at least be brought down to earth. Draymond is a fantastic supporting player but in no way could carry a team. Zion will have to grow past that to be considered what folks think he can become.

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Originally Posted by Pilot172000

He should expect a lot of Veterans to try and put him in his place this season. All that Hype has folks in the league wanting him to fail or at least be brought down to earth. Draymond is a fantastic supporting player but in no way could carry a team. Zion will have to grow past that to be considered what folks think he can become.

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I agree, but there's no reason to talk about what he can become now...keep the expectations in check and let him go play.

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Originally Posted by ml wave

I agree, but there's no reason to talk about what he can become now...keep the expectations in check and let him go play.

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I don't disagree and to be honest, we are already comparing him to one of the best 6th men of a generation. That's high hopes for a rookie, IMHO.

I rather not have my GM talk so much about players projections. It's more personal taste than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

Because to me, that’s what it feels like.

I’m going to say this. You are passionate about the team more than many fans are passionate about their team. When you are in depth probably the way we are about reading all the articles, looking at the timing of things, seeing what’s exactly being said, and how calculated Griffin is moving...it’s one thing to see a person control a narrative and another thing to see someone create one. IMO Griffin is doing both.

It’s my personal opinion that it’s amatuer hour because:
1. It’s very visible to me. He can’t be covert I suppose if he wants his message out
2. Content GMs don’t have to do these things with their teams/players who have yet to play a game

Over this summer and just listening and watching Griffin, I have my own personal opinions on the narrative and what he’s trying to control and create. As much as I know you follow, I think we both could come to the agreement that there is a feeling of one if you trust your gut and the fact that you agree he’s trying to get ahead of things right now. No way am I going to derail this thread, but I, like you, agreed with his assessment sort of in a pocket of Zions game.

Draymond on offense for Zion is well below expectations. Let’s get that out the way and speak the honest truth. I think you and I both 1. Understand Zion is more capable of that and 2. Griffin necessarily wasn’t saying he won’t be the scorer his hype and expectations call for. Just that he has that control the full court game ability like Draymond.

So the question is. If we both know Griffin is smart enough to not think that, why is he focused on saying the potential Monday morning Steven A hot take when he knows the “dumb casual” fan will run with the narrative that the GM compares Zion to Draymond Green when he could have just kept that to himself (especially when you see full frontal they are trying to kill the kids hype with any type of comparison, diss, etc.)

Do you see where I’m going?

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07-29-2019, 03:48 PM #13
Nightshade Nightshade is online now
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I for one glad to see he isnt content, because a content GM isnt going to lead a take to the playoffs.

Winners are never content.

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Originally Posted by socbe7

Zion is far closer to Draymond offensively than he is defensively at this point in their careers.

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Not really. As I've already said, Zion is already the superior ball handler, already the superior driver, already has more refined post moves and footwork on offense, already has shown more signs of an outside shot, etc etc. I think people Draymond has this reputation as selfless, which he is, people seem to think that he could do a ton on offense and just chooses not to. That's not true. He is a very, very limited offensive player in ways that his other abilities compensate for, in places where Zion is not. Their offense is really just not the same at all, whereas their defense is very similar in a bunch of ways: the difference there is more in quality than in kind.

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Originally Posted by socbe7

The reason Griff made these comments is for fans who expect the offense to run through Zion. Zion's offense will come from grabbing a defensive board and pushing the ball a la Draymond Green. His made baskets in the half court will primarily be off offensive rebounds or assisted rim runs. We're not going to regularly throw him the ball on the perimeter and expect him to get a bucket or facilitate. That's not his game.

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Which is a problem. The fact is, ''that's not his game'' is only something most people think because of how Zion was used by a Duke team that had a HORRIBLE, disgusting offense all year long. Zion has so much more in his game, and when he was given the chance to be a ballhandler and to facilitate at Duke, he did a very good job. It's the kind of skill-set you would hope he develops more. Obviously nobody expects it to be the primary role he plays, especially not as a rookie, but if we're just saying ''oh nah, that's not his game'' and ruling it out as an option, then I think you're artificially limiting his potential and misusing him as a player. He definitely should get regular opportunities to create. They shouldn't be a majority of his plays, it shouldn't be every time down the court, but it should be something he gets the chance to do at least a few times in every game.

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Originally Posted by socbe7

Additionally, Draymond Green is not a phenomenal passer. Draymond is a good passer, but can average 7+ assists because he's extremely unselfish (sometimes to a fault) and has great awareness and decision making.

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Have you considered that ''great awareness and decision making'' are part of what makes you a high calibre passer? Because... uh.. they are. If you're a good passer with great awareness and decision making then you're a great passer. That's kind of how passing works.

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Originally Posted by socbe7

Finally, the LeBron comparisons have to stop. Let's not confuse hype with on court game. LeBron and Zion share an enormous amount of fame and hype coming into their rookie years and are physically imposing, but that's about where the comparison ends at this point. The make up of this roster vs. the Cavs' 2003-04 roster is completely different. Zion will not be asked to do all the things the Cavs got out of LeBron during his rookie year, and that's ok. That's why David Griffin continues to try to protect Zion by speaking very frankly about their expectations.

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You are literally responding to a post where I said ''Obviously no one-on-one comparison is good. Direct player comparisons are almost always off.''. Of course I don't think Lebron and Zion are identical. I literally said that in the post you're replying to.

I said that I think the Lebron comparisons are more accurate than the Draymond comparisons on offense, not that Zion just IS Lebron. And I still think that's true. Both Zion and Lebron are large, physically imposing, massively athletic players who are unstoppable in the fastbreak, high quality drivers with solid handles and limited outside shooting ability, who generally prefer face-up playstyles despite their size and who are unselfish and willing passers. Obviously there are further details which they DON'T share, but that's why I say that direct comparisons are almost always off: I'm just saying Zion is MORE like Lebron than Green. That's all.

And, pretty obviously, I was comparing their playstyles, not the expectations. Obviously nobody expects Zion to come in and be Cavs Lebron because we're a different team with a different setup in a different era with better pieces around him. Literally nobody that I've talked to thinks that Zion will be asked to do what Lebron did in his rookie year, and nobody cares either. Not sure why you brought that up at all, it's not part of the expectations in any way.

Yay, new trolls

that dude seriously picked a good name for his self bc everything I read anything the guy writes it's always a wow

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There might be some similarities, but I do not see a good comparison at all. Zion is an athletic freak with a quick first step while Draymond is a scappy technician.

Zion can easily average an efficient 25 ppg while Draymond will never. Thats not his game.

I like the comparison Griff made a lot. As usual people are looking way to deep and taking his statements way to literal as if Griff said Zion is going to be Draymond Green. Obviously Zion has the ability to be on another level which Griff knows better then anyone here and he sees how insanely good of a player Zion would be if you just simply have Green his athleticism. Zion already has a more advanced skill set scoring along with quite a few other traits. I think he could have a similar play style offensively to Green in how we let him operate with the ball in his hands. The big difference is he will be a much more gifted scorer. Just say you get a player who is Draymond Green but a top 3 athlete of all time who is bigger, stronger, faster and more versatile on both sides of the ball with even more potential defensively while being in different universes offensively is one of the best basketball players of all time. If Zion plays the same style as Green with a more versatile game scoring offensively and you are looking at the best player in the NBA. That would be a walking triple double every single night averaging 25 ppg. The crazy thing is worse case scenario I see Zion as being Draymond Green with athleticism.. The one thing I hope he continues to develop is his ability to handle the ball while creating for others.. A couple examples would be similar to the way Green and Giannis have developed and were even further behind where he is. Zion is ultimately going to be his own player that nobody really resembles just like every star in the NBA is unique. If anyone is every going to be unique and not like anyone else it’s Zion. I love that Griff actually gives the fans something and voices his opinion at times.