Playing GM... Keep Zion out and Tank

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's kind of irrelevant. My criticisms of Frank are completely independent of what JJ is doing. Whether JJ is stinking it up, or shooting lights out, my criticism of Frank is the same because they apply to Frank, not anyone else.

Yes, JJ has been bad. But that has nothing to do with whether Frank can run an offense, or provide surplus value beyond scoring.

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JJ has had s nice career and has been quite reliable. My point is Frank is ahead of JJ's curve.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

I wasn’t clear. Keep Zion out as long as we need to is what I really meant. And when he comes back be careful with him.

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That makes more sense. I feel like they're already doing that though: standard recovery time for his injury is 4-6 weeks, and they've put him on 6-8 as a timetable. That already sounds to me like they're being a little more cautious than strictly necessary. Which is good, obviously. There's being too cautious, to the point where you're actually hampering his progress (that would be holding him out all year, for example) but there's a middle ground where you're being sensible.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

I want more weight loss and I don’t know if that’s possible. Like I said 270 is probably a lot safer than 285.

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I honestly feel like this is the kind of thing that you and me cannot really say. The fact is, I'm not a doctor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you very possibly aren't either. The Pelicans staff has doctors, trainers, etc, who are on the scene, who have direct access to Zion's measurements, direct access to his testing and test results, get to see him move/train every day, get to monitor his recovery and his diet directly, etc. They will make the judgement as to what weight Zion needs to maintain, based on actual evidence and experience and knowledge.

270lbs probably is safer than 285lbs, but how do you know he's not actually 270lbs already? Weight measurements were not updated this year like height was, and he didn't participate in the combine. He was 285lbs at the beginning of his college year at Duke, and he was clearly, visibly lighter by the end of it. Then he gained weight back during the summer, and looked slimmer again by pre-season. What is his actual healthy weight right now? I don't know. You don't know. None of us know. Could be 268, could be 274, could be 281, we don't know. So let the people who actually do know make those calls.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That makes more sense. I feel like they're already doing that though: standard recovery time for his injury is 4-6 weeks, and they've put him on 6-8 as a timetable. That already sounds to me like they're being a little more cautious than strictly necessary. Which is good, obviously. There's being too cautious, to the point where you're actually hampering his progress (that would be holding him out all year, for example) but there's a middle ground where you're being sensible.



I honestly feel like this is the kind of thing that you and me cannot really say. The fact is, I'm not a doctor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you very possibly aren't either. The Pelicans staff has doctors, trainers, etc, who are on the scene, who have direct access to Zion's measurements, direct access to his testing and test results, get to see him move/train every day, get to monitor his recovery and his diet directly, etc. They will make the judgement as to what weight Zion needs to maintain, based on actual evidence and experience and knowledge.

270lbs probably is safer than 285lbs, but how do you know he's not actually 270lbs already? Weight measurements were not updated this year like height was, and he didn't participate in the combine. He was 285lbs at the beginning of his college year at Duke, and he was clearly, visibly lighter by the end of it. Then he gained weight back during the summer, and looked slimmer again by pre-season. What is his actual healthy weight right now? I don't know. You don't know. None of us know. Could be 268, could be 274, could be 281, we don't know. So let the people who actually do know make those calls.

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The idea is that his weight is a problem and everyone knows it. The lighter he is the better. I would prefer him at SG than PF. Of course we don’t know everything about this but you can make a reasonable inference about the situation. Zion is HUGE and if you think his speed and mass and power isn’t making him a higher risk for injury then you are ignoring reality. No one on the staff who understands physics would overlook this. He needs to lose weight. If I’m wrong that’s great. I wish he could be 300lbs and move like Jordan without getting injured.


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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

The idea is that his weight is a problem and everyone knows it. The lighter he is the better. I would prefer him at SG than PF. Of course we don’t know everything about this but you can make a reasonable inference about the situation. Zion is HUGE and if you think his speed and mass and power isn’t making him a higher risk for injury then you are ignoring reality. No one on the staff who understands physics would overlook this. He needs to lose weight. If I’m wrong that’s great. I wish he could be 300lbs and move like Jordan without getting injured.

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The problem here is that you think you know better than trained doctors and trainers do. You don't.

Obviously you want a player to be as light as they can be while maintaining as much strength and athleticism as possible. But the fact is, we do not KNOW what Zion's minimum weight is while maintaining strength and athleticism. Losing weight does have some benefits, sure, but it also has a cost. And that's a cost-benefit analysis that the staff will do, with Zion's input, before deciding what his goal weight should be. That's not an analysis you or I can do from the comfort of our own homes without ever even stepping foot into the same room as Zion.

Maybe he can get down to 260 and still maintain a lot of his strength. Sure, possible. And the staff who actually know what they're talking about will make that judgement. Maybe he can't, maybe for a guy of his build 270lbs works for him. Again, the staff, who actually know what they're talking about, will make that judgement.

The idea that Zion should be playing shooting guard was a stupid idea when Gilbert Arenas was pushing it back before the Summer, and it's still absurd now.

The stupid thing is there's no better way for Zion to lose weight than for him to freaking play a sport where he runs around.

Does he risk injury? Yeah. But so does everyone else. I don't really believe he's more likely to hurt himself to some massive extent than any Shaq in his prime.

Play Zion. Don't be absurd.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The problem here is that you think you know better than trained doctors and trainers do. You don't.

Obviously you want a player to be as light as they can be while maintaining as much strength and athleticism as possible. But the fact is, we do not KNOW what Zion's minimum weight is while maintaining strength and athleticism. Losing weight does have some benefits, sure, but it also has a cost. And that's a cost-benefit analysis that the staff will do, with Zion's input, before deciding what his goal weight should be. That's not an analysis you or I can do from the comfort of our own homes without ever even stepping foot into the same room as Zion.

Maybe he can get down to 260 and still maintain a lot of his strength. Sure, possible. And the staff who actually know what they're talking about will make that judgement. Maybe he can't, maybe for a guy of his build 270lbs works for him. Again, the staff, who actually know what they're talking about, will make that judgement.

The idea that Zion should be playing shooting guard was a stupid idea when Gilbert Arenas was pushing it back before the Summer, and it's still absurd now.

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The topic of Zion's weight has got to be one of the most ridiculous narratives in sports talk. Losing a few pounds isn't going to change the make-up of his body. He's got a huge frame that's packed with muscle. Trimming what little body fat he hasn't isn't going to make a huge difference in the stress that's put on his lower body. It's unavoidable for big guys.
Also, coming off a knee injury, the trainers are going to focus on stabilizing the muscles and tendons of that leg. That means plenty of strength training for his lower body, which could even mean a muscle gain down there, and a slight weight increase until his body gets back to baseline.

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Originally Posted by Teal Lantern

The topic of Zion's weight has got to be one of the most ridiculous narratives in sports talk. Losing a few pounds isn't going to change the make-up of his body. He's got a huge frame that's packed with muscle. Trimming what little body fat he hasn't isn't going to make a huge difference in the stress that's put on his lower body. It's unavoidable for big guys.
Also, coming off a knee injury, the trainers are going to focus on stabilizing the muscles and tendons of that leg. That means plenty of strength training for his lower body, which could even mean a muscle gain down there, and a slight weight increase until his body gets back to baseline.

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People need to be clear. Losing weight doesn't mean trimming fat. It means losing body mass that'll include muscle.

As a person who's still plays ball regularly I can tell you losing 10-12 lbs makes a huge difference in the way the body feels.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

People need to be clear. Losing weight doesn't mean trimming fat. It means losing body mass that'll include muscle.

As a person who's still plays ball regularly I can tell you losing 10-12 lbs makes a huge difference in the way the body feels.

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Yea I think the Pels know that as well. Whether its fat or muscle doesn't really matter. Either way, both are strains on his knees; and playing at that weight is not going to be sustainable over the course of his career.

That being said, I don't think it should be a major focus during the season. Unless there's real scientific support behind the notion that if he plays at this weight he will get hurt, then holding him out is just hurting his development. Zion's development is so much more important than whoever our draft pick is this season.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

People need to be clear. Losing weight doesn't mean trimming fat. It means losing body mass that'll include muscle.

As a person who's still plays ball regularly I can tell you losing 10-12 lbs makes a huge difference in the way the body feels.

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Then the best thing for him is to play. What better work out can he get than playing 30+ minutes every night? That's a helluva workout and it will burn some weight off. I remember repeated reading about how Anthony Davis would put on mass over the summer...and then he'd lose some of it when the season went in full swing.

It's a non-story to me. I don't see him any more liable to get hurt than Shaq when he played. So above average...but Zion is going to be in much better condition than Shaq ever was.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

The idea is that his weight is a problem and everyone knows it. The lighter he is the better. I would prefer him at SG than PF. Of course we don’t know everything about this but you can make a reasonable inference about the situation. Zion is HUGE and if you think his speed and mass and power isn’t making him a higher risk for injury then you are ignoring reality. No one on the staff who understands physics would overlook this. He needs to lose weight. If I’m wrong that’s great. I wish he could be 300lbs and move like Jordan without getting injured.


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Zion is a big man.

Come to grips with that.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

People need to be clear. Losing weight doesn't mean trimming fat. It means losing body mass that'll include muscle.

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Losing muscle is a dicey situation, especially for an athlete coming off of an injury. He's got to heal and get back to baseline. Fans shouldn't expect any kind of body transformation any time soon. Moreover, he's a big man and he always will be. That's just how his body has developed over time. I don't view his mass much differently than Tacko Fall playing at 300lbs. They're both huge men who will just have to hope for the best when it comes to career longevity.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

Then the best thing for him is to play. What better work out can he get than playing 30+ minutes every night? That's a helluva workout and it will burn some weight off. I remember repeated reading about how Anthony Davis would put on mass over the summer...and then he'd lose some of it when the season went in full swing.

It's a non-story to me. I don't see him any more liable to get hurt than Shaq when he played. So above average...but Zion is going to be in much better condition than Shaq ever was.

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I disagree. Diet is the best way to control weight. He doesn't have to play to do that. Also there are several low impact exercises that can assist him in shedding the weight. And this is why I advocate him taking the entire year off to accomplish this goal. People talking about him missing a year of development but none of it matters if we are looking at a Greg Oden type situation. The biggest skill Zion needs to improve is his shooting he can focus on that while getting on a diet plan and low impact exercises routine.

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Originally Posted by Teal Lantern

Losing muscle is a dicey situation, especially for an athlete coming off of an injury. He's got to heal and get back to baseline. Fans shouldn't expect any kind of body transformation any time soon. Moreover, he's a big man and he always will be. That's just how his body has developed over time. I don't view his mass much differently than Tacko Fall playing at 300lbs. They're both huge men who will just have to hope for the best when it comes to career longevity.

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Comparing him to Tacko Fall is insane. The man is 7'7 plus you can't put a notebook under his feet when he jumps, and while he has great mobility for a person his size he's not incredibly agile. Zion is at best a foot shorter and only about 20lbs lighter. On top of being the most physical gifted athlete the game has ever seen. There's almost no comparison to Zion ever let alone a 7'7 center.

Best comparison is Shaq. Elite athlete and very heavy.

The concept is absurd to sit him. I'd lose a ton of respect for this org to do something like that. Way the universe works, he'd lose the weight then snap his ankle any damn way.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Comparing him to Tacko Fall is insane. The man is 7'7 plus you can't put a notebook under his feet when he jumps, and while he has great mobility for a person his size he's not incredibly agile. Zion is at best a foot shorter and only about 20lbs lighter. On top of being the most physical gifted athlete the game has ever seen. There's almost no comparison to Zion ever let alone a 7'7 center.

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Comparing him to Oden is just as insane. Oden's issue was a physical deformity in that one leg was shorter than the other and put stress on his knees. As said above, Shaq is probably the best comparison. I do not remember him taking a year off to try and lose his muscle.

Professional NBA players have a consensus that it’s very important Zion loses weight. They know a lot more about the sport and what it’s like to play in the NBA. You can say whatever you want but you’re not more knowledgeable than HOF NBA professionals; even if they aren’t healthcare professionals they are much more qualified than any fan who wants to believe whatever David Griffin says. Remember, Griffin also put out the narrative that talks with AD possibly returning we’re going very well. Yeah right. Zion probably has to lose weight to decrease probability of injury. Sure, he could still get injured if he lost 20 lbs but this risk of injury will go down if he weighs less. This is a serious issue and most of the people on this forum are not taking it seriously.


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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Professional NBA players have a consensus that it’s very important Zion loses weight. They know a lot more about the sport and what it’s like to play in the NBA. You can say whatever you want but you’re not more knowledgeable than HOF NBA professionals; even if they aren’t healthcare professionals they are much more qualified than any fan who wants to believe whatever David Griffin says. Remember, Griffin also put out the narrative that talks with AD possibly returning we’re going very well. Yeah right. Zion probably has to lose weight to decrease probability of injury. Sure, he could still get injured if he lost 20 lbs but this risk of injury will go down if he weighs less. This is a serious issue and most of the people on this forum are not taking it seriously.


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Believe it or not, the trainers and experts who are paid to work with him and examine him on a daily basis know much more about what is needed than any former NBA player or fan on a message board. And I have heard no one say that the Pelicans should shut him down until he loses weight. I am sure they are working with him to get him where ever they think he needs to be.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Believe it or not, the trainers and experts who are paid to work with him and examine him on a daily basis know much more about what is needed than any former NBA player.

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Of course. I don’t disagree with that fact.

The PELICANS organization isn’t going to come out and publicly share information that most fans don’t want to hear. It won’t help Zion either...

It’s reasonable to believe what Hall of Fame NBA players are saying about this issue. It’s foolish to act like they don’t know what they’re talking about.


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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Comparing him to Oden is just as insane. Oden's issue was a physical deformity in that one leg was shorter than the other and put stress on his knees. As said above, Shaq is probably the best comparison. I do not remember him taking a year off to try and lose his muscle.

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I only used Greg Oden because injuries derailed his career not because I think he and Zion share a lot of physical similarities.

Shaq again was 7'1. His size to weight ratio was still more proportionate than Zion's. Plus Shaq was a center and wasn't putting the same stress on his body as Zion. There's no telling how much more dominate Shaq could have been had he stayed at his Orlando weight. And even if Shaq is the best comp for Zion Shaq didn't have knee issues this early in his career.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I only used Greg Oden because injuries derailed his career not because I think he and Zion share a lot of physical similarities.

Shaq again was 7'1. His size to weight ratio was still more proportionate than Zion's. Plus Shaq was a center and wasn't putting the same stress on his body as Zion. There's no telling how much more dominate Shaq could have been had he stayed at his Orlando weight. And even if Shaq is the best comp for Zion Shaq didn't have knee issues this early in his career.

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But Oden's injury and Zion's are not even comparable. Didn't Oden require microfracture surgery (several years ago when it was probably less effective than it even is now).

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Of course. I don’t disagree with that fact.

The PELICANS organization isn’t going to come out and publicly share information that most fans don’t want to hear. It won’t help Zion either...

It’s reasonable to believe what Hall of Fame NBA players are saying about this issue. It’s foolish to act like they don’t know what they’re talking about.


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I agree they will not share the info, nor should they. However, I trust that they know the best course of action with Zion. Much more than any former player or us posters on a message board.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I agree they will not share the info, nor should they. However, I trust that they know the best course of action with Zion. Much more than any former player or us posters on a message board.

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Yeah, this is basically my take as well.

Of course they're not going to personally e-mail me to let me know why they're playing Zion or not. But they're going to make the call from a position of more information and more knowledge and more training than any of us have, and therefore I'm perfectly willing to trust them with that call. If they say he's ready after 6 weeks, I'm not going to get mad at them. If they say he needs 9, then fine. Whatever it is.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Believe it or not, the trainers and experts who are paid to work with him and examine him on a daily basis know much more about what is needed than any former NBA player or fan on a message board. And I have heard no one say that the Pelicans should shut him down until he loses weight. I am sure they are working with him to get him where ever they think he needs to be.

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I know a little something about the recovery process that Zion is going through. I had that same surgery at a similar age, and I'm certain that weight loss isn't the focus of his trainers right now. They're telling him to eat plenty of protein, dairy, and fruit to aid healing. They're taking him through sessions that are heavy on regaining ROM, flexibility, and strength. They're concern right now is stabilizing the joint and his leg as a whole. They're suggesting that he restrict bad calories like sugar, but they're not telling him to eat like a bird. Fans need to understand the priority of his recovery right now.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

But Oden's injury and Zion's are not even comparable. Didn't Oden require microfracture surgery (several years ago when it was probably less effective than it even is now).

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Again I never said the two were comparable. I said it's best to avoid a situation like Oden. Meaning a situation where consecutive injuries derailed his career. Obviously Oden body issues were more difficult to manage.