Horford or Harris

Pel's possibly looking at both... what are your thoughts...Al Horford or Tobias Harris?

Horford but not at the amount thats rumored

Tobias Harris is another extremely good fit, can play both small and power forward, would be great in small ball lineups at the 4 and Zion at the 5, and he’s athletic, we could literally run anyone out the gym

We are going to be linked to every big name by every agent trying to get his client a big deal because we have cap space, and they want to drive up the market for their clients.

One of the main concerns I have with Tobias Harris is that he's already played for 5 different teams. Even though he produces, he doesn't stick with one team for long before being traded.

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Originally Posted by bradael

One of the main concerns I have with Tobias Harris is that he's already played for 5 different teams. Even though he produces, he doesn't stick with one team for long before being traded.

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That's because he's not actually that great.

Tobias Harris is kind of a weird guy because his box score numbers look good, but he's a relatively un-impactful player. Advanced stats make that clearer than his box score: he's a career 0.1 BPM, a career .114 WS/48 guy, a career league-average PER guy, and has never posted a VORP over 2.0 in a season. All good, he's not terrible, but definitely not the kind of guy I'd be offering a max contract.

Also he's bad on defense.

neither.

Harris not bad on defense, he is serviceable. However, I feel he will be significantly overpaid.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Harris not bad on defense, he is serviceable. However, I feel he will be significantly overpaid.

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you might be right, but any player that is drawing interest from multiple teams will likely be well overpaid....

Where do we place Harris if he comes along? Ingram's not coming off the bench. And he's not playing PF because that's Zion.

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Originally Posted by kinglio21093

Where do we place Harris if he comes along? Ingram's not coming off the bench. And he's not playing PF because that's Zion.

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Ingram can probably play a few power forward minutes here and there but yeah, if he tried playing that spot regularly he'd get absolutely bodied.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Ingram can probably play a few power forward minutes here and there but yeah, if he tried playing that spot regularly he'd get absolutely bodied.

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I believe he was referring to Harris, not Ingram

If we acquired Harris, he would start at SF more likely.

Please no Horford, please yes Harris.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

If we acquired Harris, he would start at SF more likely.

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Yes he would. This would cause Ingram to come off the bench and have a finishing front court of Ingram-Harris-Zion or it could push Zo to the bench and have Jrue and Ingram move up a spot.

I wouldn't offer more than $18-19 million and he's gonna command more than that, maybe even a max.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

I wouldn't offer more than $18-19 million and he's gonna command more than that, maybe even a max.

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He likely will get the max and he is not worth that IMO.

The only reason I see us getting Harris is if there is an issue with Ingram’s blood clot.

It does not make sense to sign him otherwise.

That being said.... I’d love Harris on this team.

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Originally Posted by HartOfaPelican

The only reason I see us getting Harris is if there is an issue with Ingram’s blood clot.

It does not make sense to sign him otherwise.

That being said.... I’d love Harris on this team.

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Ingram is not an established player. He has a lot to prove if he wants to be viewed as a long term starter. Same with Lonzo.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

He likely will get the max and he is not worth that IMO.

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He absolutely is not

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Ingram is not an established player. He has a lot to prove if he wants to be viewed as a long term starter. Same with Lonzo.

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I agree, but how does Harris make sense right now then assuming Ingram is heathy?

Are we sticking with the young kids and slightly rebuilding still? Or are we trying to be a contender soon?

We need to make up our mind and stick with it. There is no reason to get ourselves stuck in between.

The pelicans had the chance to build something special but the wrong moves could destroy it.

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Originally Posted by HartOfaPelican

I agree, but how does Harris make sense right now then assuming Ingram is heathy?

Are we sticking with the young kids and slightly rebuilding still? Or are we trying to be a contender soon?

We need to make up our mind and stick with it. There is no reason to get ourselves stuck in between.

The pelicans had the chance to build something special but the wrong moves could destroy it.

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I don't like signing Horford or Harris long-term, but I'm ok with signing veterans on a short-term deal who can help. Guys who I mentioned earlier like Dedmond, Collison and Gay who can shoot from 3s and all three should fit under the cap. Also not opposed to trading for a contract like Steven Adams if we can move Moore in the process and add Jerami Grant with it.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

I don't like signing Horford or Harris long-term, but I'm ok with signing veterans on a short-term deal who can help. Guys who I mentioned earlier like Dedmond, Collison and Gay who can shoot from 3s and all three should fit under the cap. Also not opposed to trading for a contract like Steven Adams if we can move Moore in the process and add Jerami Grant with it.

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I think any move with a vet should be 2 years or less. Anything longer than that and I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

We want to be prepared to make a FA splash in 2-3 years when all the kids are primed and ready for a championship run.

If we are going to give a contract to anyone that is longer than two years, they need to be young and fit our long term plans. That being said, the only person that makes sense to me in FA is Vucevic.

Is he the perfect fit and can he replicate the season he just had? Idk.... but if we are going to sign Horford for longer than 2 years for a ton of money... might as well go after Vucevic. Or go after B Lopez! I’d prefer either of them over Horford.

I wanted Tobias Harris to join AD and Jrue for years, but not sure about our new current squad. I really like him as a combo forward for today’s NBA. I still really like him, but think Al Horford would be a better fit to this extremely young team we have now. We need someone that can get it done in the paint, but can also space the floor so Zion can do what he does best. Out of all the top free agents in this class Al would probably be the perfect fit IMO. He could play with Zion, Hayes, and Okafor IMO. He would make our top 4 big men really one of the better in the game IMO. Hopefully no one will look to pay him the max, so we could possibly get him on a decent deal. I like the thought of bringing back Niko, but Al would be a lot better fit for his game in the paint. An older vet the likes of Horford would do wonders for our young bigs Zion, Hayes, & Okafor(he’s only 24, so he’s pretty young himself).

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

We are going to be linked to every big name by every agent trying to get his client a big deal because we have cap space, and they want to drive up the market for their clients.

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Exactly

Al Horford is the perfect player for this team.

Look at his #'s every year of his career, similar but very adaptable depending on what his team needs.
He has an old man type of game that should age well.

Now I get you guys don't want to overpay in years or money, in a fair world the Pels wouldn't have to. but..
if you want to change the culture, this is the type of player you want.
A leader, a successful professional teacher who can still play, and a person NBA players respect.

But most importantly signing him, and him being successful and happy in New Orleans would be the signal to the NBA that things have changed here,
and hopefully lead to players considering the Pels as a destination in the future.

Overpaying this player in years or money could be the way to open the door to the future just a little wider.

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Originally Posted by redrum

Overpaying this player in years or money could be the way to open the door to the future just a little wider.

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Only in terms of money. If you overpay him in money, that's fine. If you overpay him in years, you ''open the door to the future'' in one way, but close that same door in another way by destroying your long term cap.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Only in terms of money. If you overpay him in money, that's fine. If you overpay him in years, you ''open the door to the future'' in one way, but close that same door in another way by destroying your long term cap.

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Until players consider signing here there will be no discounts from them in years or money, they need to sign that first player that can change the narrative on New Orleans.

Horford might be that player.

A team can have all the money and flexibility in the world, but if no one wants it, the organization is screwed.

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Originally Posted by redrum

Until players consider signing here there will be no discounts from them in years or money, they need to sign that first player that can change the narrative on New Orleans, Horford might be that player.
A team can have all the money and flexibility in the world, but if no one wants it, the organization is screwed.

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It's kind of being stuck between a rock in a hard place because if you sign, say, Horford to a 4yr $120m contract or something, then maybe that changes the narrative but it wouldn't mean anything for 3+ years because we wouldn't have any cash to sign free agents anyway.

I’d rather use the money that we would have to pay either Horford or Harris for both Brook Lopez (2 years at $18 million a year) and Nikola Mirotic (2 or 3 years at $14 million a year). We could then use our exception on a 1-2 year deal for a backup PG.

I like Horford and think he's maybe the best fit of any player in the league for this roster right now. Well run teams sign the big players while developing talent, and accumulating assets. look no further than SA with Lamarcus, Boston with Horford or Denver with Millsap. The way rookie contracts are there's plenty of cap room to sign vets and still maintain flexibility. If he'll take a 3 year 100 million contract give it to him.

But I would not give him any kind of 4th year. That's the last year of rookie contract Zion. And if that contract becomes untradeable in a year it becomes a serious mistake that could keep NO from resigning it's pwn players or adding talent to the roster.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It's kind of being stuck between a rock in a hard place because if you sign, say, Horford to a 4yr $120m contract or something, then maybe that changes the narrative but it wouldn't mean anything for 3+ years because we wouldn't have any cash to sign free agents anyway.

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But in 3 plus years when hopefully Zion is a top 5 player and has learned to be a pro, the money opens up.

I think with Horford and one or two others plus our youngsters growth this team could be a force in the next few years.
And if a respected player like Horford talks about his great experience in News Orleans we could be living in a whole new basketball world.

The Pels need to sign a good basketball player, but also a bridge to show New Orleans is a great place to play.
Someone to show the kids how to work everyday. Knows how to win. Someone like PJ Brown. Very good player, respected among his peers, great in the community.........

......and willing to take a chance and sign in New Orleans.

Until this happens the Pels will be signing Solo, Asik, and E.Moore types (hopefully a little better) always wishing and hoping for more.

I am by no means saying the Pels have to sign Horford, I am just saying he is the type of player they need to sign.

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Originally Posted by redrum

But in 3 plus years when hopefully Zion is a top 5 player and has learned to be a pro, the money opens up.

I think with Horford and one or two others plus our youngsters growth this team could be a force in the next few years.
And if a respected player like Horford talks about his great experience in News Orleans we could be living in a whole new basketball world.

The Pels need to sign a good basketball player, but also a bridge to show New Orleans is a great place to play.
Someone to show the kids how to work everyday. Knows how to win. Someone like PJ Brown. Very good player, respected among his peers, great in the community.........

......and willing to take a chance and sign in New Orleans.

Until this happens the Pels will be signing Solo, Asik, and E.Moore types (hopefully a little better) always wishing and hoping for more.

I am by no means saying the Pels have to sign Horford, I am just saying he is the type of player they need to sign.

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That's truewith basically any contract. Give one out, even a huge one, and when it's done the money opens up.

The question is, what is there to do with that money? That depends on the free agency class. Obviously there's always the potential for trades to bring in players with excess salary but in general, the function of the cap space is to sign free agents. So who is going to be a free agent in the 2022 class? Right now, it looks bad: there will be lots of rookies like Doncic and Young, but obviously they'll be RFAs and won't actually be on the market, their teams will match. There are a few guys who might be able to be grabbed like Marcus Smart and (31 year old) Covington, and then there are a wealth of aging stars: 34 year old Curry, and 37 year old CP3 and Lebron will be available.

$30M in cap won't be as valuable in 2022 as it would be in 2021, because there will be fewer good players likely to move, and teams will be coming off the big contracts they sign this year and there'll be more money flying around. 2021 is the year we should be aiming at, in my view, and giving Horford a 3 or 4 year deal on $25m+ is a terrible idea as a result. I don't really care how good his locker room presence is at that point: paying 37 year old Horford to average 11/4 for $25m while simultaneously ruining your ability to compete in the 2021 FA class is a mistake.

Lonzo jrue Ingram Harris Zion

I would love to see this lineup run people out the gym

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's truewith basically any contract. Give one out, even a huge one, and when it's done the money opens up.

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I guess I should have said it opens up for Zion's fifth and 6th years, the most important make or break years!

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Ingram is not an established player. He has a lot to prove if he wants to be viewed as a long term starter. Same with Lonzo.

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Ingram has a higher ceiling ans this team isn't trying to win a championship anytime soon.

So you put your equity in Ingram and see how that works out instead of going after Harris now.

I mean didn't ya'll kill Dell Demps for making moves like this?

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Ingram has a higher ceiling ans this team isn't trying to win a championship anytime soon.

So you put your equity in Ingram and see how that works out instead of going after Harris now.

I mean didn't ya'll kill Dell Demps for making moves like this?

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Yep. I've piled on Ingram more than almost anyone on this board, but I'm totally fine with just letting him start and seeing what he can do without the Lakers shadow over him. Let him start, just let him go.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

Lonzo jrue Ingram Harris Zion

I would love to see this lineup run people out the gym

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Finishing 5 yes depending on match-ups defensively, but I don't think that should be the starting lineup. The majority of Zion's minutes should be defending the other team's 4.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

Finishing 5 yes depending on match-ups defensively, but I don't think that should be the starting lineup. The majority of Zion's minutes should be defending the other team's 4.

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Or their 3. I feel like he'd do a fantastic job guarding Lebron, for example, even as a rookie. Very few other players in the league capable of standing in front of Lebron and having a legitimate claim for equalling him in strength, athleticism, and instinct.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Or their 3. I feel like he'd do a fantastic job guarding Lebron, for example, even as a rookie. Very few other players in the league capable of standing in front of Lebron and having a legitimate claim for equalling him in strength, athleticism, and instinct.

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Agreed I'd like to see most of his minutes played at the 4 and then 3 based on the rotations, and then at the end of games if teams go small no issues with him closing as the 5. Just speaking for majority of the time. Match-ups dictate everything of course.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

Agreed I'd like to see most of his minutes played at the 4 and then 3 based on the rotations, and then at the end of games if teams go small no issues with him closing as the 5. Just speaking for majority of the time. Match-ups dictate everything of course.

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It's all rotations based, like you said. I agree Zion should start at the 4, but honestly I could see times where he's playing the 1 on offense and the 5 on defense within the same lineup.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It's all rotations based, like you said. I agree Zion should start at the 4, but honestly I could see times where he's playing the 1 on offense and the 5 on defense within the same lineup.

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To me the position you play is really centered around who you defend. On offense you dictate whatever "position" you play.