You guys, I think we need to pay Lonzo

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Everybody is so preoccupied on Ball and JJ; where do we stand with Hart? I believe he will be in demand.

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Hart is pretty much the same guy this season as he's been throughout his young career.

I think the Kuzma contract is a pretty good starting point for Hart. Kuz signed a 3 year 39 million dollar contract with a player option. The issue for Hart, though, is that Kuzma has: 1) shown exponentially more scoring potential than Hart, and 2) was a pivotal piece on a championship team the prior season.

Hart doesn't have nearly the leverage that Kuzma had, and he hasn't really been lighting the world on fire from 3, though he's been fine. I think the full MLE is kind of the perfect contract for Hart. He's better than guys like Moe Harkless who are getting 3-5 mil per year, but not quite on Kuzma's level in terms of production, potential, and leverage.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I think it is fair to say that he rarely forces 3s unless late in the shot clock. Sometimes he does go cold though.

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yes and mostly getting the pass from ingram because the defense build a wall for zion then the big go set a screen but lonzo man cheat down to stop ingram from driving then ingram pass the ball to an open lonzo for a forced late shot 3......

its context like this thats not being told when the lonzo has more shots than ingram and zion comment came up being made to be a negative against lonzo in those 2 or 3 games.....comments like lonzo has more shots than ingram and zion without context as to why he had more shots are not fair to him but are just petty lol.....

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I think it is fair to say that he rarely forces 3s unless late in the shot clock. Sometimes he does go cold though.

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I dunno, every once in a while when a few of his wide open shots goes down, he gets a full of himself and starts his step back three point crap.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

I dunno, every once in a while when a few of his wide open shots goes down, he gets a full of himself and starts his step back three point crap.

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Just taking a quick look at a couple games where he led in shots. One game he was 6 - 18 and only half (9) of those shots were threes. Another game he was 6 - 15 and only 6 of those shots were threes.

So basically, in the games where he was the leading shot taker, he was just shot happy and it had nothing to do with being forced into 3s.

Which is why I said this whole argument was nonsense to begin with.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Just taking a quick look at a couple games where he led in shots. One game he was 6 - 18 and only half (9) of those shots were threes. Another game he was 6 - 15 and only 6 of those shots were threes.

So basically, in the games where he was the leading shot taker, he was just shot happy and it had nothing to do with being forced into 3s.

Which is why I said this whole argument was nonsense to begin with.

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This is accurate, although Lonzo taking 9 3's a game should not happen. Bigger issue is that, on a team with much more proven efficient scorers like BI and Zion, Lonzo should never be the leading shot taker. It's been said numerous times in this thread that, at best, he is a solid 3 & D guard on this team.
Do you ever want your 3&D guy(s) leading the team in shot attempts? Lonzo's issue is he has very limited ability to create for others in the half court so he ends up chucking it more than he should.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Just taking a quick look at a couple games where he led in shots. One game he was 6 - 18 and only half (9) of those shots were threes. Another game he was 6 - 15 and only 6 of those shots were threes.

So basically, in the games where he was the leading shot taker, he was just shot happy and it had nothing to do with being forced into 3s.

Which is why I said this whole argument was nonsense to begin with.

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forget the 3s.......in 2 games you are making a big deal over him leading in attempts but you are not giving the whole story as to why/how did lonzo lead in attempts.....forget the 3s.....what was zion and ingram deal in those games....did the defense leave him open to take the shots....was some of those miss put backs......what lineup was he in....ect....all im asking you and pelicandae to do is put context on the comment when yall bring in up ...yall do it any other time you come down on him......

im asking you...is it fair criticism posting lonzo had more shot attempts than ingram and zion in 2 games win or loose without context knowing that the details as to why that happen may lead to explaining why lonzo had more attempts?....how is that nonsense to know the facts?....

we all know its not by design that lonzo is suppose to lead the team in shot attempts in any game with a healthy zion and ingram playing in the same game...if you going to make those 2 games a big deal then adding context to why it happen means something...something must have happen in those 2 games to make happen......hell say lonzo came out and wanted to be the man those 2 games and just started shooting crazy....

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I think it is fair to say that he rarely forces 3s unless late in the shot clock. Sometimes he does go cold though.

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This!!

He rarely goes all out to find a shot for himself unless we are very late in the shot clock. More than most, his shots come in the flow of the game.

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

forget the 3s.......in 2 games you are making a big deal over him leading in attempts but you are not giving the whole story as to why/how did lonzo lead in attempts.....forget the 3s.....what was zion and ingram deal in those games....did the defense leave him open to take the shots....was some of those miss put backs......what lineup was he in....ect....all im asking you and pelicandae to do is put context on the comment when yall bring in up ...yall do it any other time you come down on him......

im asking you...is it fair criticism posting lonzo had more shot attempts than ingram and zion in 2 games win or loose without context knowing that the details as to why that happen may lead to explaining why lonzo had more attempts?....how is that nonsense to know the facts?....

we all know its not by design that lonzo is suppose to lead the team in shot attempts in any game with a healthy zion and ingram playing in the same game...if you going to make those 2 games a big deal then adding context to why it happen means something...something must have happen in those 2 games to make happen......hell say lonzo came out and wanted to be the man those 2 games and just started shooting crazy....

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Can't tell this without going back and re-watching the game, which you are welcome to do. What I can tell you is that the game where Lonzo was 6 - 18 (and 2 - 9 from 3) was the second OKC game. He also had 4 turnovers, compared to 4 assists. That same game Zion was 12 - 17 from the field, BI was 9 - 15, and Steven Adams posted a triple double.

So you go re-watch the game and explain to us what context required Lonzo to have the most shot attempts on the team, especially when he was flat out sucking that game and everyone else was playing well.

Still a long way to go but his play has been elite as of late. If he continues to play well the rest of the way, there's no way they're letting him walk. Trading him wouldn't net you enough to pull the trigger. It's in the organization's best interest to let him earn his contract.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Just taking a quick look at a couple games where he led in shots. One game he was 6 - 18 and only half (9) of those shots were threes. Another game he was 6 - 15 and only 6 of those shots were threes.

So basically, in the games where he was the leading shot taker, he was just shot happy and it had nothing to do with being forced into 3s.

Which is why I said this whole argument was nonsense to begin with.

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Did you watch those games? I know one where he had a lot of shots and he attacked the basket more than usual and had a few misses and one or two blocked. A couple ended up in put backs. It is a silly argument to begin with. He does not take as many shots as BI or Zion, so not sure why the argument just because he may have had a couple of games where he had more.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Did you watch those games? I know one where he had a lot of shots and he attacked the basket more than usual and had a few misses and one or two blocked. A couple ended up in put backs. It is a silly argument to begin with. He does not take as many shots as BI or Zion, so not sure why the argument just because he may have had a couple of games where he had more.

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I think the issue with this is an issue that our team has in general, rather than one with Lonzo in specific. We just tend to get very selective.

''Here's the part of the game where Lonzo shoots a lot, then after that's done we'll get Zion 5 or 6 shots, then after that's done we'll give BI a few ISO possessions, then it's Bledsoe's turn to drive'' etc. It's something that happens a lot where a game will start, for example, with Zion taking 5 shots and then he doesn't get another one for the half while everyone else gets their turn, or Ingram will start the game off 4-9 while nobody else in the starting lineup has more than 2 shots, or Lonzo will have a three minute span where he takes 6 threes and barely anyone else gets a look in. The result is that it does sometimes seem like Ball is being a shot-jacker, or that Ingram has gone ISO mode for ages, or that Zion hasn't taken a shot in 2 quarters.

It's part of what makes our offense overall this season so easy to defend. Super predictable, not nearly as ball-movement-heavy as it has been in past years.

Our best games are the games where that's different. Recently, that's coincided with giving Zion the ball more and allowing him to be playmaker as well as scorer. It's worked really well, he has huge gravity and is happy to pass, and it tends to get guys more involved.

For an example of some statistics that evidence that:

Per @nbastats, the Pelicans are 5-0 when Zion's assist ratio (assists per 100 possessions used) is at least 15%. In particular, his four highest outputs in this area were the Pelicans' most recent 4 wins:

2/3 vs. PHX: 27.3%
1/29 vs. MIL: 26.9%
2/5 @ IND: 20.8%
2/6 vs. MEM: 19.2% https://t.co/YARjWQMqm2

— Mason Ginsberg (@MasonGinsberg) February 8, 2021

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Did you watch those games? I know one where he had a lot of shots and he attacked the basket more than usual and had a few misses and one or two blocked. A couple ended up in put backs. It is a silly argument to begin with. He does not take as many shots as BI or Zion, so not sure why the argument just because he may have had a couple of games where he had more.

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Being that I'm a member of this board and an obvious Pelicans fan, that comments on each and EVERY game thread...do you think I watched those games?

There should not be ANY games where someone as limited offensively as Lonzo is, leads the team in shots. Especially in games where he shoots sub 40%. And yet there have already been multiple. He should never have to be reigned in. That speaks to the wider issue of his decision making, and to the even wider issue of do you want to pay someone like that $15+ mil when you have a Kira Lewis on the roster.

Then again, this entire thread is the result of the last 3 games and not what Lonzo has shown since he's been here. Which obviously, I have sat and watched ALL of those games...obviously. Such is the way of the short-term memory and short-term thinking of fans.

**as a matter of fact, here is what I said in the gameday thread when he did it in that bad OKC loss when he shot too much:

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Lonzo is a bad decision maker.

He charged the lane and caught OKC off guard and scored. Cool.

He comes back 2 straight possessions and tries to do it again, when OKC is ready for it. He doesn't take his time, direct traffic so he has an open lane.

Indiana cleared space for Brogdon's gw the other night. When OKC needed to score, they cleared space for Hill who got Lonzo to foul him.

Lonzo, otoh, doesn't seem to know how to direct traffic aka be a point guard. He just does things recklessly which ends up in blocked shots in a crowded paint or a turnover.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Being that I'm a member of this board and an obvious Pelicans fan, that comments on each and EVERY game thread...do you think I watched those games?

There should not be ANY games where someone as limited offensively as Lonzo is, leads the team in shots. Especially in games where he shoots sub 40%. And yet there have already been multiple. He should never have to be reigned in. That speaks to the wider issue of his decision making, and to the even wider issue of do you want to pay someone like that $15+ mil when you have a Kira Lewis on the roster.

Then again, this entire thread is the result of the last 3 games and not what Lonzo has shown since he's been here. Which obviously, I have sat and watched ALL of those games...obviously. Such is the way of the short-term memory and short-term thinking of fans.

**as a matter of fact, here is what I said in the gameday thread when he did it in that bad OKC loss when he shot too much:

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Disagree with you that we should be limiting players to a specific number of shots. That is not how team basketball is played. If he dominated the shots every game, I would agree. However, he is averaging 12 shots a game. In watching the games, it is not like he is running down the court and chucking up shots without trying to get into an offense.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Disagree with you that we should be limiting players to a specific number of shots. That is not how team basketball is played. If he dominated the shots every game, I would agree. However, he is averaging 12 shots a game. In watching the games, it is not like he is running down the court and chucking up shots without trying to get into an offense.

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Agree. A snapshot in time tells you nothing. If it did, one snapshot of a JAXSON Mega Dunk would put him in Springfield.

Based on how Defenses neutralized both BI and Zion in the second halfs of games early on in the season, it was kind of necessary for someone outside of our stars to take shots. Unfortunately Bledsoe was really passive early on and the rest of our role players couldn't really buy a shot so that's probably part of the reason why Ball took matters in his hands. Some of it was bad decisions by Ball and some of it was because how passive both BI and Zion because when they received certain coverages.

I don't think Ball is the type to just launch shots just to launch them. It was needed at the time and no one else stepped up so he decided to be the one to. I'll be worried if there was an actual trend but that hasn't proved to be the case.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Disagree with you that we should be limiting players to a specific number of shots. That is not how team basketball is played. If he dominated the shots every game, I would agree. However, he is averaging 12 shots a game. In watching the games, it is not like he is running down the court and chucking up shots without trying to get into an offense.

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I didn't say we should be limiting players to a specific number of shots. Words are important. I said he should not be leading the team in shots. And sure enough when he has, the team has a losing record. The reasons for that are obvious and don't need repeating. I gave the example from that quote in the OKC game on what he should NOT have been doing. Nobody forced him to do that.

And if he is a proper point guard that you want to pay big money to, then teams should not be able to clamp down on BI and Zion and force Lonzo to shoot the most. Part of his job is to get those guys open by doing the things I don't need to keep repeating, since I've been saying it all year.

I'm not going to keep arguing this. This is jus the typical short memory jeckyll and hyde attitude most fans have. This thread popping up now is no surprise.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I didn't say we should be limiting players to a specific number of shots. Words are important. I said he should not be leading the team in shots. And sure enough when he has, the team has a losing record. The reasons for that are obvious and don't need repeating. I gave the example from that quote in the OKC game on what he should NOT have been doing. Nobody forced him to do that.

And if he is a proper point guard that you want to pay big money to, then teams should not be able to clamp down on BI and Zion and force Lonzo to shoot the most. Part of his job is to get those guys open by doing the things I don't need to keep repeating, since I've been saying it all year.

I'm not going to keep arguing this. This is jus the typical short memory jeckyll and hyde attitude most fans have. This thread popping up now is no surprise.

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He has his flaws, no doubt. But some want to blame him for everything that goes wrong. I think some have a bias that makes it hard to give him credit when he does something well. To be clear, I do not think he is someone we should invest $20-$25 million a year in, but I do think he has a role at a reasonable salary (around the $14-$16 million dollar area).

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I'm not going to keep arguing this. This is jus the typical short memory jeckyll and hyde attitude most fans have. This thread popping up now is no surprise.

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Absolutely agree. He plays like garbage for 15 games and silence: he has 3 good nights in a row and suddenly he's a $25m player. It's absurd.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Absolutely agree. He plays like garbage for 15 games and silence: he has 3 good nights in a row and suddenly he's a $25m player. It's absurd.

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It's even wild is that we don't even have to outbid anyone.

Lonzo is an interesting player. Some days he is terrible, a few days he is great.
That tiny window of great makes people start to dream about his greatness to come.
The bubble performance makes people believe he is the worst starter in the league.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle, he is an NBA starter, but not difference maker.
The Pelicans, as small market team, CANNOT give him a big contract.
BI got his, Zion will get his, and they invested in Adams.
Any other 15 to 25 million dollar player added must be an all-star, a player other teams fear.

Investing big in Lonzo Ball now, will cripple the team in the future.
Trade him now before you handcuff the future.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Absolutely agree. He plays like garbage for 15 games and silence: he has 3 good nights in a row and suddenly he's a $25m player. It's absurd.

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Unless he just completely busts out, there is no way he is worth $25 million a year. He likely will have more stretches of bad games again. If he can be a solid 3rd-4th option at a reasonable salary, he will be an asset.

It's funny; it really is. The same folks who, when defending JAXSON Hayes against the horrible start of his career, hypothesize that a player doesn't 'become the player he will eventually become' until he is 24 or 25 years old. I suppose that Ball, who like his pal from LA-LA Land (Brandon Ingram) has had up's and down's through the first three years of his career in the league, shouldn't be offered same benefit of the doubt as our 'beloved' JAXSON. They simply want Lonzo Ball gone at age 23 despite the increasing signs of brilliance he is showing.

Consider The teams Ball has played for in the NBA....

Year One: 2017-18....LAL...Luke Walton Philosophy
Year Two: 2018-19.....LAL...LeBron James Philosophy (make no mistake)
Year Three: 2019-10....NOP...Alvin Gentry Philosophy
Year Four: 2020-21....NOP...Stan Van Gundy Philosophy

Perhaps, if the teams Lonzo's played for could get theirs acts together, Ball wouldn't be re-tooling his game every 365 days.

SIDENOTE: Who amongst us doesn't see a major difference in the way the Pelican Offense is run this year as compared to last?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

It's funny; it really is. The same folks who, when defending JAXSON Hayes against the horrible start of his career, hypothesize that a player doesn't 'become the player he will eventually become' until he is 24 or 25 years old. I suppose that Ball, who like his pal from LA-LA Land (Brandon Ingram) has had up's and down's through the first three years of his career in the league, shouldn't be offered same benefit of the doubt as our 'beloved' JAXSON. They simply want Lonzo Ball gone at age 23 despite the increasing signs of brilliance he is showing.

Consider The teams Ball has played for in the NBA....

Year One: 2017-18....LAL...Luke Walton Philosophy
Year Two: 2018-19.....LAL...LeBron James Philosophy (make no mistake)
Year Three: 2019-10....NOP...Alvin Gentry Philosophy
Year Four: 2020-21....NOP...Stan Van Gundy Philosophy

Perhaps, if the teams Lonzo's played for could get theirs acts together, Ball wouldn't be re-tooling his game every 365 days.

SIDENOTE: Who amongst us doesn't see a major difference in the way the Pelican Offense is run this year as compared to last?

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This is like the fourth time you've posted this and it's just as unconvincing as it was the first time.

There's a pretty big difference between arguing Jaxson Hayes can be an NBA player and saying Lonzo has earned 25 mil a year

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

This is like the fourth time you've posted this and it's just as unconvincing as it was the first time.

There's a pretty big difference between arguing Jaxson Hayes can be an NBA player and saying Lonzo has earned 25 mil a year

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...but for you there is a difference between 25 years old for JAXSON and 25 years old for Ball, huh?

BTW: It's the second

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Originally Posted by As I See It

...but for you there is a difference between 25 years old for JAXSON and 25 years old for Ball, huh?

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Yea the difference is 25 million