With most of the big name 2021 FA class signed, Lonzo will surely test the market

What's the going price for a young, healthy, fast, defensive-minded 2-guard (or undersized wing) with great rebounding ability and full-court vision who is shooting .375 from three on 6.3 attempts per game with some probable room for improvement (but whose strengths do not include slashing or making decisions in the half court)?

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Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels

What's the going price for a young, healthy, fast, defensive-minded 2-guard (or undersized wing) with great rebounding ability and full-court vision who is shooting .375 from three on 6.3 attempts per game with some probable room for improvement (but whose strengths do not include slashing or making decisions in the half court)?

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We'll find out when he becomes a restricted free agent after this season. Given the likelihood that it will be more than the Pelicans will be willing or able to pay, I am in agreement with those who suggest that the Pels should trade him prior to the trade deadline. I would actually prefer to keep him if his price was manageable, but I don't believe it will be. Get Charlotte on the phone.

As stated before, those Lakers players minus Ingram won’t be here in a year or so. Could be traded this year.

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Originally Posted by AtlPelsFan

As stated before, those Lakers players minus Ingram won’t be here in a year or so. Could be traded this year.

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Hart will be here.

Can rival teams sign restricted free agents with their exceptions?

If a team signed Hart to 3 year year full MLE deal (say 3/30), would we have to use our MLE too, or can we sign just using Bird Rights?

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Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels

What's the going price for a young, healthy, fast, defensive-minded 2-guard (or undersized wing) with great rebounding ability and full-court vision who is shooting .375 from three on 6.3 attempts per game with some probable room for improvement (but whose strengths do not include slashing or making decisions in the half court)?

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The issue is that it's easy to define a player in abstract in a way that obscures the detail. You could just as easily do an entirely negative profile of Lonzo that downplays all the positives. Here, like this:

''What's the going price for a young point guard who is pathologically terrified of the paint, shoots poorly at the rim and from the free throw line, requires other people to create all of his shots for him because he's not even remotely a pullup threat, who has great court vision but can't actually run an offense in the half-court or execute most of the basic pick and roll passes because of his complete lack of interest in driving, and who is theoretically a good defender but who actually seems pretty disengaged on that end the majority of the time and who also has a long history of ankle injuries?''

You see, in your description it seems a no-brainer that you pay him. In my description, he doesn't even seem worth $10m a year, let alone $14m minimum. Lonzo's reality is actually a mixture of the two positions, and it's silly to try and flatten the discussion into purely the positives or purely the negatives: there would be no debate if all there was to discuss was the description you gave.

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Can rival teams sign restricted free agents with their exceptions?

If a team signed Hart to 3 year year full MLE deal (say 3/30), would we have to use our MLE too, or can we sign just using Bird Rights?

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Bird rights

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The issue is that it's easy to define a player in abstract in a way that obscures the detail. You could just as easily do an entirely negative profile of Lonzo that downplays all the positives. Here, like this:

''What's the going price for a young point guard who is pathologically terrified of the paint, shoots poorly at the rim and from the free throw line, requires other people to create all of his shots for him because he's not even remotely a pullup threat, who has great court vision but can't actually run an offense in the half-court or execute most of the basic pick and roll passes because of his complete lack of interest in driving, and who is theoretically a good defender but who actually seems pretty disengaged on that end the majority of the time and who also has a long history of ankle injuries?''

You see, in your description it seems a no-brainer that you pay him. In my description, he doesn't even seem worth $10m a year, let alone $14m minimum. Lonzo's reality is actually a mixture of the two positions, and it's silly to try and flatten the discussion into purely the positives or purely the negatives: there would be no debate if all there was to discuss was the description you gave.

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The troubling issue is how much some of the other players getting extensions yesterday got, such as Fultz, Isaac, White and Kennard.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

The troubling issue is how much some of the other players getting extensions yesterday got, such as Fultz, Isaac, White and Kennard.

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Yeah it's tricky. The issue isn't even if the players are worth that money in the abstract (some are, some aren't imo) but the fact that people are so cavalier as to just hand them out without much consideration tells me that our concerns about Lonzo getting offered the big cash might be closer to reality than some people think.

The only way I would consider resigning Lonzo is if he took what Fultz just got. 3 years $50 million. If not than I’m trying to move him during the year

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Originally Posted by DaPelFromHell

The only way I would consider resigning Lonzo is if he took what Fultz just got. 3 years $50 million. If not than I’m trying to move him during the year

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That's $17m per, basically. Unless he improves a fair bit, that's a pretty significant overpay.

Lonzo would never take the Fultz contract. That's a 2+1 with a team option. I would've absolutely given that to Lonzo. There's basically no risk involved. Can easily move off that contract if it doesn't work.

But again, Lonzo and the Pels have known for a while that this wasn't getting done. It doesn't really make sense from either side to get a deal done right now

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Lonzo would never take the Fultz contract. That's a 2+1 with a team option. I would've absolutely given that to Lonzo. There's basically no risk involved. Can easily move off that contract if it doesn't work.

But again, Lonzo and the Pels have known for a while that this wasn't getting done. It doesn't really make sense from either side to get a deal done right now

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True. I am more interested to see what was talked about with Hart.

What was talked about with Hart (IMHO):

Grif: We can't extend you now because any reasonable extension would drastically our cap space after the season. Until we sign your extension the cap hold is only your QO. Of course we don't expect you to agree to that now or after the season. We will use the cap space to trade for or sign in FA the right kind of guys who fit our timeline. Then your extension will happen using Bird rights. We took care of BI and we will take care of you. We see you here long-term. Say less.

A lot of things wrong there--

First of all, an extension was offered, but nothing that Hart had to take. It was barely above MLE annually and he knows his worst case scenario is MLE type money. Also, your cap hold is not your QO. For example, Lonzo's QO is about 14.4 but his cap hold is 27.5 mil. Hart's cap hold is 10.47, and his QO is only 5.2

The Pels will likely operate as an over the cap team next offseason regardless. Doubt we use cap space to sign anybody next year.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

True. I am more interested to see what was talked about with Hart.

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They offered Hart a solid contract. Pels were not willing to move from their numbers. Hart thinks he's gonna make a leap this season

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The issue is that it's easy to define a player in abstract in a way that obscures the detail. You could just as easily do an entirely negative profile of Lonzo that downplays all the positives. Here, like this:

''What's the going price for a young point guard who is pathologically terrified of the paint, shoots poorly at the rim and from the free throw line, requires other people to create all of his shots for him because he's not even remotely a pullup threat, who has great court vision but can't actually run an offense in the half-court or execute most of the basic pick and roll passes because of his complete lack of interest in driving, and who is theoretically a good defender but who actually seems pretty disengaged on that end the majority of the time and who also has a long history of ankle injuries?''

You see, in your description it seems a no-brainer that you pay him. In my description, he doesn't even seem worth $10m a year, let alone $14m minimum. Lonzo's reality is actually a mixture of the two positions, and it's silly to try and flatten the discussion into purely the positives or purely the negatives: there would be no debate if all there was to discuss was the description you gave.

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Right, but if we are trying to ascertain the absolute max value for the guy, as in what he could be potentially be worth to other teams or to us if he buys into playing a non-point guard position and continues to improve his numbers as he has done so far, we can create a ceiling for what we should be willing to offer him.

Valuing him completely on his negatives, he would be a bargain and his new high-powered agent would never entertain such an offer.

I personally think his combination of positive attributes is pretty rare in the league and outweigh his negatives pretty significantly IF he buys into playing a new role and stops thinking of himself as a point guard. But if he and his agent get some insane offer from some bottom dwelling team clinging to the hope that he will transform into the next Chris Paul, well farewell to him then and good luck.

It’s only fair to bump this thread with Lonzo showing some promise here. Defensively he is very active and always looking to read passes and make steals/deflections. I like that. Always making himself bigger by using his hands. Some of his takeaways were plays all defensive players regularly make so I have to give him credit for that.

Offensively, he looks much more refined. Lonzo looks much more comfortable taking it to the basket and he makes a lot of great reads on closeouts. As for his jumpshot, I said it before the season that you have to live with some of his chucks. He is a confidence player and the second he starts to hesitate our offense falls apart. Hopefully he improves to the point that we don’t have to refer to his jumpshot as chucks, but I love what I have seen from Lonzo so far. Long may it continue.

His offensive ceiling is higher than people gave him credit for. For him to be able add things every season since he's been here is impressive. Came here with a broken deep ball and worked hard to improve his form and consistency. Then he goes into this season working on a variety of shots ie. Mid range shot, floaters, layups, and aggression. Ball is nowhere near a finished product and if he can polish his offensive game, he's going to be a hell of an all around player.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

His offensive ceiling is higher than people gave him credit for. For him to be able add things every season since he's been here is impressive. Came here with a broken deep ball and worked hard to improve his form and consistency. Then he goes into this season working on a variety of shots ie. Mid range shot, floaters, layups, and aggression. Ball is nowhere near a finished product and if he can polish his offensive game, he's going to be a hell of an all around player.

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The major question is how long you think that's going to take. If you think he's almost there, then that's one thing. If you think he's 2, 3, even 4 seasons away from getting that whole package, then it's a very different scenario: you can't pay a guy something like 4ys/$80 on the hopes that in 4 years time, he might be good. By that point you've wasted 80 million dollars and 4 years of potential roster spot/cap use.

We're probably getting to a point where we may want to start a program where some of our more grounded posters adopt Lonzo haters and help them through these crow eating times. Check on your brothers and sisters periodically. Denial is real.

I'll stir up be the Hornets nest a bit more.....

Ingram was absolutely the MIP last season for this team. But if you include this offseason and first five games, Zo has surpassed him, IMO, for MIP on this team since coming here. His improvement in his shooting technique is impressive as hell and it has translated to a pretty crazy increase in percentages over only 1 1/2 offseasons. His passing in the half court offense has improved. He's setting half court plays up. He's taken a weakness in driving to the rim and is starting to make it above average. His defense has been stellar (see attached tiny image). If he continues this trajectory (let that prepositional phrase sink in before flaming me), he will be a lower tier all-star player.......or Eastern Conference all-star.

Attachment 6562

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

I'll stir up be the Hornets nest a bit more.....

Ingram was absolutely the MIP last season for this team. But if you include this offseason and first five games, Zo has surpassed him, IMO, for MIP on this team since coming here. His improvement in his shooting technique is impressive as hell and it has translated to a pretty crazy increase in percentages over only 1 1/2 offseasons. His passing in the half court offense has improved. He's setting half court plays up. He's taken a weakness in driving to the rim and is starting to make it above average. His defense has been stellar (see attached tiny image). If he continues this trajectory (let that prepositional phrase sink in before flaming me), he will be a lower tier all-star player.......or Eastern Conference all-star.

Attachment 6562

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from last season to these 5 games,,i also say lonzo is MIP in this short time....i still stand on lil brother coming into the league as another reason driving lonzo to get better.....you cant have lil brother getting all of the shine in his rookie season....

Its hard for me to imagine Lonzo ever being a good shooter. He’s been playing basketball his whole life. And this is his 4th NBA season, he’s not a rookie. He’s not going to turn into a different player. He’s going to be good at the things he is good at, and not good at the things he is not good at. He might be able to make marginal improvements on his weaknesses but expecting him to one day become a plus shooter seems very unlikely.

Fultz was the top overall pick and has had some struggles. Lonzo was the number 2 overall pick and has also had some struggles, but not on the level of Fultz. They both had broken shots and have fixed them. Both were traded to another team already in their short careers and play the same position. As soon as that deal was announced, I would of offered the same deal and if he passed I’m trading him simple as that. Unless he is the most improved player in the whole league, but that looks like either Jaylen Brown or Colin Sexton in this young season as they both look like East All Stars.