What kind of players does this team need to take it to the next level next season?

here is Josh Giddey highlights against the Pelicans

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ans+highlights

Rebound put back on CJ

3 pointer on TM3
Mid range on BI
Open 3pointer (Naji fault)
Drive on TM3
Drive on BI
Herb turn over leading to open fast break
Drive on CJ
Drive on Jax
3 pointer on CJ
Drive on Josh Richardson

CJ is at fault for less than 30 percent of the buckets in this highlight reel

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about the 2022 season but I should know better than to assume any level of intelligence or comprehension from some people on this board. Yeah CJ had some poor shooting this year due to serious injuries to his shooting hand and shoulder. It has been well documented and you are belaboring the point. And you are managing to prove my point about how you make him a scapegoat for the entire team’s problems. Someone had a good game therefore it must be all CJs fault. LMAO what a tool you are.

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Son, the only tool in this conversation is you. You've drunk the CJ Kool Aid and actually have become hopelessly inebriated with CJ nonsense. CJ is not now (or will he ever be) much more than a catch and shoot jump shooter who has a propensity to think he's more (see hordes of ISO-CJ examples). He sucks defensively on a team that doesn't have the talent to 'hide' his handicap (why he was traded so cheaply from Portland).

If you want me to say something nice about him, here it is....

CJ is a Glorified JRICH offensively (ISO-CJ not withstanding), who doesn't come close to JRICH defensively.

Last year, an injured Chris Paul exposed him defensively in a six game series and this year, a 20 year old who hasn't even experienced a razor yet, had career game against your hero. In the biggest of games, your guy disappears.

So you tell me who the the 'tool' is.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Son, the only tool in this conversation is you. You've drunk the CJ Kool Aid and actually have become hopelessly inebriated with CJ nonsense. CJ is not now (or will he ever be) much more than a catch and shoot jump shooter who has a propensity to think he's more (see hordes of ISO-CJ examples). He sucks defensively on a team that doesn't have the talent to 'hide' his handicap (why he was traded so cheaply from Portland).

If you want me to say something nice about him, here it is....

CJ is a Glorified JRICH offensively (ISO-CJ not withstanding), who doesn't come close to JRICH defensively.

Last year, an injured Chris Paul exposed him defensively in a six game series and this year, a 20 year old who hasn't even experienced a razor yet, had career game against your hero. In the biggest of games, your guy disappears.

So you tell me who the the 'tool' is.

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might wanna watch those Giddey highlights before you ask that question lol

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

might wanna watch those Giddey highlights before you ask that question lol

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I did. Giddey made your guy look like trash. PERIOD!! The Pelicans scrambled the rest of the game to cover for CJ's ineptitude, LMAO!!


NOTE: I'm leaving for a couple of hours Sunday Worship, but, I'll be back later to respond to any more of your counterpoints.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

I did. Giddey made your guy look like trash. PERIOD!!

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You are a clown. only 7 of his points were with CJ guarding him. At least have the integrity to admit when you are wrong

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

You are a clown. only 7 of his points were with CJ guarding him. At least have the integrity to admit when you are wrong

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See above...

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Originally Posted by As I See It

See above...

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It aint no see above. The video speaks for itself. It was a team effort giving up a career night to Giddey. 3 of his field goals can be attributed to CJ and the rest were on various other Pelicans. You just got exposed and are digging yourself deeper in a hole.

You know guys, we don't need to scrabble about who scored what on whom, we can just look up the stats for this?

The Pelicans opponent ORTG was +7.4 better this season when CJ was on the court than when he was off it. That is to say, when he was on the court opponents vs the Pelicans this year had a 115.7 ORTG, and when he was off they had a 108.3 ORTG. What that means is that when CJ was on the court, opponents were effectively top 10 level offenses and when he was sitting they were the worst offenses in the league.

Now, that's just one statistic and there's a lot of noise. So is there any other way we could examine CJ's defense this season?

-0.7 dBPM is bad but not atrocious, and is actually better than his career average.
His STL and BLK% are actually slightly better than his career averages this year, though still not particularly impressive
His defensive EPM was -1.2, which was 3rd worst on the team - it was 25th percentile league wide
His defensive RAPTOR was -1.4, 203rd in the NBA
His defensive LEBRON was -1.58, the 2nd worst of his career and 247th in the NBA

What does this all tell us? Well, it tells us that he's probably not individually quite as bad as the on-off number suggests (probably something to do with lineups he's usually in making the problem worse) but that he's still pretty solidly a negative on defense, and a pretty dramatic negative in some metrics. His individual STL and BLK% were up, which implies he's making more plays on the ball (though still not that many) and that then implies he must have been pretty horrible off ball and in help. All of that matches what I was seeing as I watched him this season: he was a very poor defender but not the worst defender I've ever seen.

Of course, in all likelihood his injuries play some part in this, but it is noteworthy that as a team we were, despite how ugly it looked sometimes, pretty solid defensively this season and yet CJ still managed to find himself in the negative in so many of these statistics. It's fair to call him a poor defender in general, I don't really see why that's controversial.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

You know guys, we don't need to scrabble about who scored what on whom, we can just look up the stats for this?

The Pelicans opponent ORTG was +7.4 better this season when CJ was on the court than when he was off it. That is to say, when he was on the court opponents vs the Pelicans this year had a 115.7 ORTG, and when he was off they had a 108.3 ORTG. What that means is that when CJ was on the court, opponents were effectively top 10 level offenses and when he was sitting they were the worst offenses in the league.

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yeah you would have to post the same ratings for our other starters as well for this statistic to be relevant. When CJ is on the court its typically the opponent's starting unit on the floor, and when he is on the bench its usually the opponent's bench players in the game, so I would definitely expect opposing offenses to be better during the time that CJ is playing. And CJ actually played a lot of games this season unlike most of our other players (even herb missed a lot of games this year), so CJ would have been on the floor with short handed starting units.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

yeah you would have to post the same ratings for our other starters as well for this statistic to be relevant. When CJ is on the court its typically the opponent's starting unit on the floor, and when he is on the bench its usually the opponent's bench players in the game, so I would definitely expect opposing offenses to be better during the time that CJ is playing. And CJ actually played a lot of games this season unlike most of our other players (even herb missed a lot of games this year), so CJ would have been on the floor with short handed starting units.

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The good news is you get next year to watch him and pretend he’s good. Isn’t that exciting?

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

yeah you would have to post the same ratings for our other starters as well for this statistic to be relevant. When CJ is on the court its typically the opponent's starting unit on the floor, and when he is on the bench its usually the opponent's bench players in the game, so I would definitely expect opposing offenses to be better during the time that CJ is playing. And CJ actually played a lot of games this season unlike most of our other players (even herb missed a lot of games this year), so CJ would have been on the floor with short handed starting units.

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Sure, which is why I specifically mentioned that the lineups that he was in potentially make that number look worse later in the post. The CJ-defense you're trying to counterargue with is included in the same post you're responding to.

For what it's worth, every other starter had a better on/off for Opponent ORTG than CJ. The second worst was Trey, who was still only +4.9 - bad, but the difference between him and CJ is +2.6, which is the difference in offensive quality this year between being 21st in Offense this year and being 6th.

Edit: just to clarify, I only checked starters who played at least 1200 minutes, so random Hernangomez starts do not count

CJ has always been a terrible defender. That is a given. He will not get better at this age and no one expects him to. However, it is disingenuous to say Giddey scored 31 on CJ. It is just not factual. However, some have their minds made up on players before they even play the game.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about the 2022 season but I should know better than to assume any level of intelligence or comprehension from some people on this board. Yeah CJ had some poor shooting this year due to serious injuries to his shooting hand and shoulder. It has been well documented and you are belaboring the point. And you are managing to prove my point about how you make him a scapegoat for the entire team?s problems. Someone had a good game therefore it must be all CJs fault. LMAO what a tool you are.

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We're not saying that CJ did not have injuries that affected his shooting. We're saying that he didn't account for those injuries. If you know you have injuries that affect your shooting you should be looking to be more of a facilitator and not and iso dribble dribble dribble and shoot a difficult shot. Knowing that his injuries affected his shooting he should not have forced shots and passed more

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

CJ has always been a terrible defender. That is a given. He will not get better at this age and no one expects him to. However, it is disingenuous to say Giddey scored 31 on CJ. It is just not factual. However, some have their minds made up on players before they even play the game.

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Because the 'Turn stile' couldn't guard his man up front, the defensive game plan went out the window and adjustments had to be made on the fly to provide for his ineptitude. The team has been covering for him since he arrived. You know it, I know it, and, what's more, dae's numbers know it.

Here's one for you, though. Next year....

...CJ will earn 36MM (rounded)
...BI will earn 34MM (rounded)
...ZW will earn 34MM (rounded)

That represents about 77% of your payroll for....

1. A Glorified Role Player who is a turn stile defensively
2. An All Star who can't be counted on for 20-30 games a season
3. A guy who is suppose to be your superstar and has missed over 62% of his team's games over the last four years.

This team is locked in 'Cap Hell'. Everything has to work out perfectly to just be competitive. Any bets?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Because the 'Turn stile' couldn't guard his man up front, the defensive game plan went out the window and adjustments had to be made on the fly to provide for his ineptitude. The team has been covering for him since he arrived. You know it, I know it, and, what's more, dae's numbers know it.

Here's one for you, though. Next year....

...CJ will earn 36MM (rounded)
...BI will earn 34MM (rounded)
...ZW will earn 34MM (rounded)

That represents about 77% of your payroll for....

1. A Glorified Role Player who is a turn stile defensively
2. An All Star who can't be counted on for 20-30 games a season
3. A guy who is suppose to be your superstar and has missed over 62% of his team's games over the last four years.

This team is locked in 'Cap Hell'. Everything has to work out perfectly to just be competitive. Any bets?

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I feel silly to be even doing this, but yeah.... I'll bet they will be competitive....

If Donte' DiVincenzo opts out in Golden State he my # 1 Free Agent, PG target given our salary situation. He was my guy two months ago, is my guy now, and will be this summer. He offers the stability (and size) we need in the back court at the lead guard position until DD gets his game together.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

If Donte' DiVincenzo opts out in Golden State he my # 1 Free Agent, PG target given our salary situation. He was my guy two months ago, is my guy now, and will be this summer. He offers the stability (and size) we need in the back court at the lead guard position until DD gets his game together.

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He will add some shooting and pretty good defense. Not sure he is much of a facilitator though.

https://www.nola.com/sports/pelicans...407821bd8.html

What y’all think about this Mccollum article? Changes my perspective a little, but I can’t say that him playing through these particular injuries helped the team in any way.

With Nurse being fired would anyone be on board some sort of deal for Vanvleet? I think he can opt out of his final year and be a FA but would he be an upgrade to CJ? Maybe a sign and trade centered around CJ? I haven't looked into any details of this kind of deal but he sees like he would be an improvement as a PG type player versus CJ. Is his defense any good?

I'm just throwing stuff out to see what yall think here

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

With Nurse being fired would anyone be on board some sort of deal for Vanvleet? I think he can opt out of his final year and be a FA but would he be an upgrade to CJ? Maybe a sign and trade centered around CJ? I haven't looked into any details of this kind of deal but he sees like he would be an improvement as a PG type player versus CJ. Is his defense any good?

I'm just throwing stuff out to see what yall think here

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Vanfleet would be sweet.

perhaps chicago or miami wants to blow it up and we could get Lavine or Herro



PS

i couldnt read all that debating about CJ, but let me sum it up..... he sucks.... considering what he's making and nobody wins with him as their best guard

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Originally Posted by fullcourtpress

Vanfleet would be sweet.

perhaps chicago or miami wants to blow it up and we could get Lavine or Herro



PS

i couldnt read all that debating about CJ, but let me sum it up..... he sucks.... considering what he's making and nobody wins with him as their best guard

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Pretty good summary if you ask me.

I’d love Lavine. I’m up for big changes. I doubt we get it but give me young talent that can grow together.

Are people interpreting this tweet all wrong or Billy bout to be let go? I think the former.

Year 7 on the ��?. Thanks New Orleans for all the support this season. Excited for the next chapter �� �� #WH pic.twitter.com/V0u0Pyygd5

— Willy Hernang?mez Geuer (@willyhg94) April 24, 2023

I think WHG and Jax are definitely gone. VAL is probably back, but he will have competition this year.

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Originally Posted by Fedupfan

I think WHG and Jax are definitely gone. VAL is probably back, but he will have competition this year.

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I'm going back and forth on JAX. In the end I think it totally depends on the number. I wouldn't be surprised if was a back on a team friendly deal (similar to JHart's two years ago). Griff will not punt on him unless he absolutely has to (vanity), and I don't see a market for JAX despite his 'untapped potential'. On the other hand, there is always a market for a big, bulky, numbers guy who isn't a problem like H'Gomez. He's 90% out of the door (Miami anybody?).

FULL DISCLOSURE: I like JAX and view him as potentially a more complete Christian Wood (another last bloomer).